Streetcar

[Urban Pioneer]

I don't know how to do a double quote. But this is to both Just the Facts and Andrew.

Look.... We had $10 million dollars to buy Santa Fe Station in the budget. We got a matching grant from the FTA. So now we are renovating the facility in it's entirely without even having a Regional Transit Authority. We are essentially years ahead of the Regional process. Should we not accept that money and get the Phase 1 of the facility ready? The historic station is falling apart. The parking lot is a placeholder for Phase 3 transit hall expansion.

Regarding the streetcar, the Mayor, Bricktown property owners, Bricktown merchants, the Ward 7 Councilmen (both Skip Kelly and later John Pettis), and our consultants doing the economic development scoring all wanted the loop through Bricktown that we are moving forward with. Therefore, we are putting stops on Sheridan and Reno and pressing forward with the tunnel punching through to serve them. Streetcar is part of the facility.

And now we are working with Public Works for even more integration. Also, we have fought for and won the reconstruction and pedestrian urbanization of EK Gaylord... A huge and difficult victory.

And yet all I am hearing from you guys is criticism of volunteers. You guys sit in our chairs for day and fight cultural intransigence instead of pontificating on a message board.

[Urban Pioneer]

That doesn't even directly serve the transit hub. Excuse me if I chalk that up as a fail on behalf of a lot of people who were supposed to be planning this thing. Which members of the streetcar committee approved the stops literally being on the wrong side of the tracks?

That's why bringing the pedestrian tunnel is important. To connect Bricktown and to make the two stops part of the facility.

[Rover]

Urban Pioneer, it is much easier to criticize than to do. Thanks to all the volunteers for all they do. There are lots of difficult decisions to make and lots of research and learning to do. Thanks for doing while knowing that whatever gets done will be criticized.

[Just the facts]

I guess I just don't get it then. A transit station that doesn't get transit until phase 2 (which might never happen). That has the makings of a 60 Minutes exposé on why streetcars are a waste of money.

[Urban Pioneer]

Streetcar meets Amtrak. There is your 1st Phase transit connection. Not sure why that isn't obvious.

[OKCisOK4me]

I guess I just don't get it then. A transit station that doesn't get transit until phase 2 (which might never happen). That has the makings of a 60 Minutes exposé on why streetcars are a waste of money.

It seems like you are very well educated on the subject matter. Surely your employer in Jacksonville will understand if you take a leave of absence to come home and bring everyone on board your train? Maybe you can volunteer your time along side Urban and get everyone to see the light?

[Just the facts]

It seems like you are very well educated on the subject matter. Surely your employer in Jacksonville will understand if you take a leave of absence to come home and bring everyone on board your train? Maybe you can volunteer your time along side Urban and get everyone to see the light?

Already did that. I spent a couple of years hosting a website for rail in OKC. You think the Modern Streetcar Project and MAPS III were the first people since the 1940's to try and get rail back in OKC? Somewhere back in the Oklahoman archives you can read about it (would have been in the 1999 to 2001 range). The members of our group that live in OKC met every month. We were doing it when we were the only people who wanted it. The City was even nice enough to host our forum.

[Just the facts]

Streetcar meets Amtrak. There is your 1st Phase transit connection. Not sure why that isn't obvious.

Well I guess someone had a talk with you between today and 7 days ago, because 7 days ago you seemed pretty unhappy about the lack of a streetcar connection at the transit hub.

http://journalrecord.com/2014/12/10/...s-real-estate/

Tap’s renderings include a streetcar stop across E.K. Gaylord Boulevard. However, that streetcar stop won’t be part of the initial route, said Jeff Bezdek, an at-large MAPS 3 subcommittee member.
“The stop in front of the station will not be used at all,” Bezdek said.

He said Amtrak passengers would have to walk to stops next to the fountain on E. Sheridan Avenue or the flag plaza on E. Reno Avenue to hop on the streetcar.

“You’ve done a great job opening up the tunnel and doing great things to activate Lower Bricktown, but there’s no interaction depicted between the transit uses for the facility,” he said.

He said the MAPS 3 subcommittee is especially interested in making sure that ties to other modes of transit are properly depicted because it has about $10 million invested in the $40 million project.

...

“Our committee will be protesting that, because (Gaylord Boulevard) will not be the primary streetcar stop,” Bezdek said. “The transit advocates will protest this all the way to City Council unless the connective tissue to the streetcar is well-established.”

I guess the protest to council is off?

on edit - you were right 7 days ago.

[catch22]

I guess I just don't get it then. A transit station that doesn't get transit until phase 2 (which might never happen). That has the makings of a 60 Minutes exposé on why streetcars are a waste of money.

Did you even read anything that was posted? It was purchased for future use. You have to purchase it at some time. Would you rather it was not purchased at all, and risk someone else coming in later on and purchasing it before the city could? Or wait for the price to continue to go up as property values increase?

[Tier2City]

Oklahoma City streetcar advisory board has concerns on lead bidder's late delivery to Seattle | NewsOK.com

[Urban Pioneer]

JTF- Your missing the point entirely. We did something about it. Yeah I protested. I protested when no one else did. No one from our committee knew exactly what or how it was going to be presented.

I cancelled two appointments with important clients last week and took my ass down there and chewed the architects out during the presentation and after the meeting.

In our meeting yesterday, the committee reinforced my concerns and the Public Works Director has promised developing more integration with the stops and further submittals for review.

Your inferring that somehow, something happened to change my stature. What changed was the willingness of the city to listen to our commitee's concerns and promise to come back with new drawings. The other broader issue is the overall line item cost is still being assessed.

I did what I felt had to be done to shoot accross the bow before this process went much further. And the press helped reinforce what the issues were. In our meeting we were promised more submittals. It is only reasonable to wait for them.

You obviously don't know me at all.

[Urban Pioneer]

Reading that latest article just makes me angry about people like you who chastise us and act like we're sell outs. Every damn one of us is committed to accomplishing the goals set forth to the public- building a good system, trying to stay within budget and on time.

You can disagree what our conclusions are but I take great umbrage to your assertions that we are willing to compromise our goals.

[Just the facts]

If you and the other members of Streetcar Committee feel this way then great, but why are Public Works, the consultants, and non-members of the committee seeming to have more influence in the streetcar project than the people actually tasked to do it? I totally get the frustration as I am a consultant myself but whether the client agrees with me or not I still get paid. If I did my job as a volunteer I would have walked out the second I discovered my input wasn't really needed by the person making the decisions.

[Just the facts]

Did you even read anything that was posted? It was purchased for future use. You have to purchase it at some time. Would you rather it was not purchased at all, and risk someone else coming in later on and purchasing it before the city could? Or wait for the price to continue to go up as property values increase?

Then don't spend any money on it. Buy it, keep it from falling apart, and wait until mass transit is ready for a mass transit hub. As a federal taxpayer who supports rail transit that is woefully underfunded, I am more than a little concerned that precious federal funding is being spent on a transit hub in OKC that isn't going to be a transit hub for 10 more years and the tracks were only put in so it qualify for the funding - while place like Jacksonville were asking for that same money to extend an existing mass transit system with over 4,000 riders a day into a rapidly growing downtown adjacent neighborhood.

[Urban Pioneer]

If you and the other members of Streetcar Committee feel this way then great, but why are Public Works, the consultants, and non-members of the committee seeming to have more influence in the streetcar project than the people actually tasked to do it? I totally get the frustration as I am a consultant myself but whether the client agrees with me or not I still get paid. If I did my job as a volunteer I would have walked out the second I discovered my input wasn't really needed by the person making the decisions.

If we felt we didn't have influence, we wouldn't be there. I think this circles back around to you not being happy with the conclusions that have been reached.

[AP]

I don't know how to do a double quote. But this is to both Just the Facts and Andrew.

Look.... We had $10 million dollars to buy Santa Fe Station in the budget. We got a matching grant from the FTA. So now we are renovating the facility in it's entirely without even having a Regional Transit Authority. We are essentially years ahead of the Regional process. Should we not accept that money and get the Phase 1 of the facility ready? The historic station is falling apart. The parking lot is a placeholder for Phase 3 transit hall expansion.

Regarding the streetcar, the Mayor, Bricktown property owners, Bricktown merchants, the Ward 7 Councilmen (both Skip Kelly and later John Pettis), and our consultants doing the economic development scoring all wanted the loop through Bricktown that we are moving forward with. Therefore, we are putting stops on Sheridan and Reno and pressing forward with the tunnel punching through to serve them. Streetcar is part of the facility.

And now we are working with Public Works for even more integration. Also, we have fought for and won the reconstruction and pedestrian urbanization of EK Gaylord... A huge and difficult victory.

And yet all I am hearing from you guys is criticism of volunteers. You guys sit in our chairs for day and fight cultural intransigence instead of pontificating on a message board.

Jeff, I understand that you and everyone on the committee has working very hard to accomplish the goals you have set out, but does that somehow negate my opinion that the transit hub should have been integrated from the get go not down the line? My opinion is now invalid because I'm not on the committee? As if everyone that has an opinion on the matter could have been on the committee.

[catch22]

Jeff, I understand that you and everyone on the committee has working very hard to accomplish the goals you have set out, but does that somehow negate my opinion that the transit hub should have been integrated from the get go not down the line? My opinion is now invalid because I'm not on the committee? As if everyone that has an opinion on the matter could have been on the committee.

As has been pointed out, the transit facility is multi phase. It's out of the scope of MAPS3 and the Streetcar subcommittee to move the bus station to the transit facility. MAPS 3 bought the facility, and when future dollars and programs (RTA) evolve, they will move to Santa Fe Station.

The dollars simply do not exist and it is out of the Streetcar scope to make Santa Fe Station a complete transit facility the day it opens. It will have streetcar to Amtrak connections for now. As the transit system evolves and money comes available, it will become more of a transit hub.

[catch22]

The facility was purchase with 2020 and beyond in mind. It was important and a smart move for the city to secure the facility before someone has a chance to attempt demo for a parking garage, or sell it to someone who will hold it hostage.

The city bought it at a fair price, and has secured it as part of our future.

[Just the facts]

If we felt we didn't have influence, we wouldn't be there. I think this circles back around to you not being happy with the conclusions that have been reached.

There is some of that also.

[Urban Pioneer]

Jeff, I understand that you and everyone on the committee has working very hard to accomplish the goals you have set out, but does that somehow negate my opinion that the transit hub should have been integrated from the get go not down the line? My opinion is now invalid because I'm not on the committee? As if everyone that has an opinion on the matter could have been on the committee.

Nope. Your opinion is always valid and welcomed.

Just to clarify, a short walk between most hub facilities and streetcar stops is commonplace. What I would like to see that was outline in our meeting is way finding signage to streetcar stops, a electronic system map with next streetcar arrival info in the main waiting room of Santa Fe Station, and a meaningful architectural connection to the two stops.

The challenge is going to be stretching funds to cover everything and make the facility self sustaining. A great deal of money is being spent to renovate the roof of Santa Fe Station that extends under the tracks and building the tunnel with BNSF's requirements.

In a perfect world, I would like to see a glass concourse that protects pedestrians all the way from the tunnel to both stops. An awning for rain protection at a minimum. We asked for those things to be considered and a line item revised budget now that the architects have a better understanding of the facility.

Regardless of the broader commuter train system not being ready to go, this is a major, major step in expediting that future connectivity and improving the experience for existing Amtrak passengers. It is as much a rehabilitation of that entire area as well and the project essentially extends all the way past the OKC Boulevard. Our committee has worked hard to make sure that the new Boulevard underpass responds to what we are doing at Santa Fe Station.

[Plutonic Panda]

I know this is kind of off topic, but when can expect a commuter rail to go online?

[Just the facts]

As has been pointed out, the transit facility is multi phase. It's out of the scope of MAPS3 and the Streetcar subcommittee to move the bus station to the transit facility. MAPS 3 bought the facility, and when future dollars and programs (RTA) evolve, they will move to Santa Fe Station.

The dollars simply do not exist and it is out of the Streetcar scope to make Santa Fe Station a complete transit facility the day it opens. It will have streetcar to Amtrak connections for now. As the transit system evolves and money comes available, it will become more of a transit hub.

It won't have street car to Amtrak interaction. Not only is the nearest streetcar stop not on site, it's not even adjacent. Who is possibly going to get off at the transit station, walk to the nearest station on Sheridan, wait up to 10 minutes for a tram, and ride it 2 blocks further into Bricktown? The answer is no one.

Now if what was presented was phase 1 then present what the final facility is going to look like (knowing that the future isn't written), where we are now, and all the steps to get from A to B. If the parking lot is a reserved space for a future Embark bus terminal then let's see a rendering depicting that and what steps the City is going to take to make that happen. When you don't know where you are going any road can get you there.

[Just the facts]

dup entry

[Just the facts]

If we felt we didn't have influence, we wouldn't be there. I think this circles back around to you not being happy with the conclusions that have been reached.

Just to clarify, I know it looks like I am taking this out on you personally but I am not. The thing that concerns me the most is from my perspective it looks like you and the other members of the Streetcar Committee are being put in the situation where you can't be successful. Public Works should almost have zero say in the Streetcar to this point. They are engineers, not mass transit planners. Their job should be to build whatever system you guys come up with. If you want to put an inverted loop in Public Works should figure out a way to make the street car go through a loop, but they shouldn't be telling you "no loops". ...and yes, I know that was an extreme example and was presented for illustrative purposes only.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Now if what was presented was phase 1 then present what the final facility is going to look like (knowing that the future isn't written), where we are now, and all the steps to get from A to B. If the parking lot is a reserved space for a future Embark bus terminal then let's see a rendering depicting that and what steps the City is going to take to make that happen. When you don't know where you are going any road can get you there.

Ask and ye shall receive: Intermodal Transportation Hub Study | ACOG | Association of Central Oklahoma Governments