Convention Center

[Watson410]

I would rather see the $380 million go towards a football stadium on the Cotton Mill site, It would get more use than a convention center (just my 2 cents).

[catch22]

I would rather see the $380 million go towards a football stadium on the Cotton Mill site, It would get more use than a convention center (just my 2 cents).

About 8 times a year?

[Bellaboo]

I would rather see the $380 million go towards a football stadium on the Cotton Mill site, It would get more use than a convention center (just my 2 cents).

You wouldn't get much of a stadium, if you remember, they wanted in excess off 100 million for the site alone...

[dankrutka]

I would rather see the $380 million go towards a football stadium on the Cotton Mill site, It would get more use than a convention center (just my 2 cents).

There is no need for a football stadium. At all. Expanding the sreetcar would be my vote if we could redirect the money.

[Lafferty Daniel]

There is no need for a football stadium. At all. Expanding the sreetcar would be my vote if we could redirect the money.

Thank you. People who are wanting a football stadium are not living in the real world. OKC will never have an NFL team. Ever. First, Jerry Jones would make sure that would never happen since a lot of OKC residents are Dallas Cowboys fans. Second, having an NFL team would take away from the money that goes towards OU and OSU football. All the bandwagon fans that just want to cheer for a football team will end up cheering for the NFL team rather than the college teams. Kind of like what is happening with the Thunder and OSU and OU basketball fans. (Not that OU fans cared about their basketball team anyway, but I digress).

Investing the $380 million towards anything but an NFL stadium would be a much better idea.

[Teo9969]

Thank you. People who are wanting a football stadium are not living in the real world. OKC will never have an NFL team. Ever. First, Jerry Jones would make sure that would never happen since a lot of OKC residents are Dallas Cowboys fans. Second, having an NFL team would take away from the money that goes towards OU and OSU football. All the bandwagon fans that just want to cheer for a football team will end up cheering for the NFL team rather than the college teams. Kind of like what is happening with the Thunder and OSU and OU basketball fans. (Not that OU fans cared about their basketball team anyway, but I digress).

Investing the $380 million towards anything but an NFL stadium would be a much better idea.

Simply put...that is an incredibly silly notion.

If OKC continues to outpace the rest of the country in growth, know that every amenity possible will eventually be made to the residents of the city. Never is far too strong of a word.

I'm not defending spending $380M on an NFL stadium. I think the earliest OKC could support another pro team, if the city continues to grow at the pace it is growing now (~2% annually), is somewhere between 2040 and 2050. But that's a whole lot different than never.

[Lafferty Daniel]

Simply put...that is an incredibly silly notion.

If OKC continues to outpace the rest of the country in growth, know that every amenity possible will eventually be made to the residents of the city. Never is far too strong of a word.

I'm not defending spending $380M on an NFL stadium. I think the earliest OKC could support another pro team, if the city continues to grow at the pace it is growing now (~2% annually), is somewhere between 2040 and 2050. But that's a whole lot different than never.

You're right. I shouldn't have put never. But it will be an incredibly long time (decades and decades) before OKC gets an NFL team, if ever. LA doesn't even have an NFL team. OKC, with it's proximity to Dallas, is going to be overlooked for a long time when it comes to NFL expansion (as it should). Plus, the cost of an NFL stadium is going to be a lot more than $380 million. Somewhere around $500 million - $1 billion would be more appropriate. And I just don't see taxpayers wanting to pay that much money when it could be used elsewhere.

[Teo9969]

You're right. I shouldn't have put never. But it will be an incredibly long time (decades and decades) before OKC gets an NFL team, if ever. LA doesn't even have an NFL team. OKC, with it's proximity to Dallas, is going to be overlooked for a long time when it comes to NFL expansion (as it should). Plus, the cost of an NFL stadium is going to be a lot more than $380 million. Somewhere around $500 million - $1 billion would be more appropriate. And I just don't see taxpayers wanting to pay that much money when it could be used elsewhere.

With 10% of the Top 100 MSAs actually losing population and only 14% outgrowing OKC...if that trend continues (and seeing how the economy is not recovering, this seems likely), then OKC may be able to support a team within 30 years...the planning for making that happen means that it's on the table as a possibility in about 20/25 years. That's not that far away.

[Lafferty Daniel]

With 10% of the Top 100 MSAs actually losing population and only 14% outgrowing OKC...if that trend continues (and seeing how the economy is not recovering, this seems likely), then OKC may be able to support a team within 30 years...the planning for making that happen means that it's on the table as a possibility in about 20/25 years. That's not that far away.

I still don't see it happening. With the people who have power in Oklahoma being OU/OSU grads, they know an NFL team is going to take money away from their university. Basketball was different because that's not the big sport in this state. Plus, Jerry Jones has a lot more power than Mark Cuban (Cuban was one of two owners who opposed the Thunder's move from Seattle. Just like Jerry would opposed an NFL team coming to OKC).

[Teo9969]

I still don't see it happening. With the people who have power in Oklahoma being OU/OSU grads, they know an NFL team is going to take money away from their university. Basketball was different because that's not the big sport in this state. Plus, Jerry Jones has a lot more power than Mark Cuban (Cuban was one of two owners who opposed the Thunder's move from Seattle. Just like Jerry would opposed an NFL team coming to OKC).

Jerry will be dead by then. The high growth rate for OKC is not just birthrate...it's people moving from other parts of the state/country and these people won't really care about OU/OSU. When you're a city of 2.5M you can afford several pro-sports franchises and still maintain your passion for your college teams. Furthermore, NFL/NCAAFB don't conflict the same way NBA/NCAABB do. Games are never on the same day. Games are far less frequent. Games rarely happen on weeknights.

As far as corporate sponsorship, sponsoring pro teams is just advertising. Sponsoring college teams is a tax write-off...so I assure you corporate support would not wane for the universities.

I think the arguments against OKC getting an NFL team are sensationalized without really taking into consideration the paradigm that would have to be in place for it to actually be a possibility. If OKC had the business infrastructure (say 4 - 6 more fortune 500 companies), I'd be willing to bet OKC could support an NFL team today.

[hoya]

OKC probably won't be getting an NFL franchise anytime soon, but you never know. I think if we were to build a stadium where the cotton mill is now, it would be a multipurpose facility that would be built bare-bones, like the Ford Center was. While the goal would be an NFL team, we'd try to attract Major League Soccer, and would probably host the Chesapeake Natural Gas Bowl or something. We'd build it big, simple, and with lots of room to expand if an NFL team ever became a possibility. While I don't think it's likely any time soon, remember that if it's for MAPS 4, that's probably around 2020 or so before we vote on it, and we probably wouldn't start building it until 2028 or so, and completion by 2030. That'd be over 20 years of solid support for the Thunder, and other leagues could start to consider us without people thinking they are crazy.

The reason L.A. doesn't have an NFL team is because the people in that city don't want one. It's the second largest city in the country, and every team not named the New York Giants or New York Jets is located in a smaller market than L.A.

[Lafferty Daniel]

Jerry will be dead by then. The high growth rate for OKC is not just birthrate...it's people moving from other parts of the state/country and these people won't really care about OU/OSU. When you're a city of 2.5M you can afford several pro-sports franchises and still maintain your passion for your college teams. Furthermore, NFL/NCAAFB don't conflict the same way NBA/NCAABB do. Games are never on the same day. Games are far less frequent. Games rarely happen on weeknights.

As far as corporate sponsorship, sponsoring pro teams is just advertising. Sponsoring college teams is a tax write-off...so I assure you corporate support would not wane for the universities.

I think the arguments against OKC getting an NFL team are sensationalized without really taking into consideration the paradigm that would have to be in place for it to actually be a possibility. If OKC had the business infrastructure (say 4 - 6 more fortune 500 companies), I'd be willing to bet OKC could support an NFL team today.

You could also say the arguments for OKC getting an NFL team are sensationalized. Our city would need to double to reach 2.5 million. Also, you said games are never on the same day, which is true. But how many people do you think are going to spend all day in Norman/Stillwater on Saturday then do the same thing on Sunday in OKC? Not very many. That's also a lot of discretionary income for most households. People are going to pick one or the other. Most won't do both. Look at what has happened to OSU/OU basketball. Interest has waned and so has attendance. I've known many families who have dropped their OSU/OU football tickets so they can add Thunder tickets. This would only get worse for an NFL team.

And yes, Jerry Jones will be dead by then. But he'll have a successor, and that person is going to have a lot of power also. When you are the owner of the most valuable NFL franchise and third most valuable sports franchise in the world, you can throw your weight around.

[OKCisOK4me]

With 10% of the Top 100 MSAs actually losing population and only 14% outgrowing OKC...if that trend continues (and seeing how the economy is not recovering, this seems likely), then OKC may be able to support a team within 30 years...the planning for making that happen means that it's on the table as a possibility in about 20/25 years. That's not that far away.

I have a feeling that $380 million could be spent better and faster toward a streetcar system now rather than waiting for your eventual 30 year mark.

[betts]

Regardless of whether people here want a convention center, it is one of the MAPS projects and someone undoubtedly voted for it. It's no more fair to take the CC money and give it to the streetcar than to do the reverse.

[CaptDave]

Very true betts. Other than the location, my primary concern is we don't build a barely adequate, large CC. IMO we should build a very nice CC of the "right size". Extremely well done small - medium size is preferable to large and obviously cheap. Trouble is I haven't a clue how to determine what "right size" is for OKC and the realistic expectations of future convention business. Can anyone predict with any degree of accuracy what future OKC convention volume might be? This is why I am almost sure there is an "energy mart" of some sort coming in the future sponsored by our "Big 4" independent producers. It could justify the expense of a large CC beyond honoring the MAPS3 vote results.

[onthestrip]

You could also say the arguments for OKC getting an NFL team are sensationalized. Our city would need to double to reach 2.5 million. Also, you said games are never on the same day, which is true. But how many people do you think are going to spend all day in Norman/Stillwater on Saturday then do the same thing on Sunday in OKC? Not very many. That's also a lot of discretionary income for most households.

Population and other sporting event spending certainly play a part. Also a large part of it is corporate advertising dollars and TV market. Two things that OKC lacks in the regard for a successful football franchise

[Lafferty Daniel]

Population and other sporting event spending certainly play a part. Also a large part of it is corporate advertising dollars and TV market. Two things that OKC lacks in the regard for a successful football franchise

Yes, this too.

[jedicurt]

OKC probably won't be getting an NFL franchise anytime soon, but you never know. I think if we were to build a stadium where the cotton mill is now, it would be a multipurpose facility that would be built bare-bones, like the Ford Center was. While the goal would be an NFL team, we'd try to attract Major League Soccer, and would probably host the Chesapeake Natural Gas Bowl or something. We'd build it big, simple, and with lots of room to expand if an NFL team ever became a possibility. While I don't think it's likely any time soon, remember that if it's for MAPS 4, that's probably around 2020 or so before we vote on it, and we probably wouldn't start building it until 2028 or so, and completion by 2030. That'd be over 20 years of solid support for the Thunder, and other leagues could start to consider us without people thinking they are crazy.

The reason L.A. doesn't have an NFL team is because the people in that city don't want one. It's the second largest city in the country, and every team not named the New York Giants or New York Jets is located in a smaller market than L.A.

And why hasn't San Antonio gotten a team yet? they did exactly this, and are still looking for a team some 15 years later

[Spartan]

And why hasn't San Antonio gotten a team yet? they did exactly this, and are still looking for a team some 15 years later

Bingo

Just go down the list of cities that host bowl games.

[Larry OKC]

CaptDave; "right size" is whatever it takes to get us firmly into the Tier 2 status. One of the problems is one of the experts they had come in to talk about their needs indicated that what we are building will just meet what their current requirements are, much less what those requirements will be when it finally gets built. She said their needs were a small convention. Even the Council is aware of this and are thinking we are building it too small. At least one Councilman said as much and the rest of the Council chuckled in agreement. In other words, we are going to have a functional C.C. when it opens but it will already be too small and the immediate need to somehow fund the expansion (Phase 2). Then there is still the unfunded most likely taxpayer subsidized C.C. hotel (est @ $50 million). And even with Phase 2, by the time it is funded and completed, yet again it will probably be too small. Vicious cycle.

[BoulderSooner]

I still don't see it happening. With the people who have power in Oklahoma being OU/OSU grads, they know an NFL team is going to take money away from their university. Basketball was different because that's not the big sport in this state. Plus, Jerry Jones has a lot more power than Mark Cuban (Cuban was one of two owners who opposed the Thunder's move from Seattle. Just like Jerry would opposed an NFL team coming to OKC).

i don't think it is going to happen in my life time ......


but all it would take is one billionaire to buy the team and want to move it to OKC ..... Al davis showed that when he moved the raiders back to oakland ... the nfl sued to stop him and he won ....

[hoya]

MAPS 3 polls showed immense popular support for an NFL stadium. Most people didn't think we could get the NBA, but we did. Now I know that the barriers to getting an NFL team are larger than the NBA. We certainly don't have a good chance of getting one now, but who knows what will be the case in 30 years? Hell I'll be just about able to collect social security by that point in time. Kids who are graduating from high school today will be running for President. It's a long time away, and a little dreaming doesn't hurt.

The one problem I think we've started running into with MAPS is that it's generally been targeted towards fairly low-cost, high-value projects, and now people think everything should be built through MAPS. We invested in a whole bunch of fairly inexpensive (relatively) quality of life upgrades. Our NBA arena cost about a third of what most NBA arenas cost. We built a very nice minor league ballpark. We're buying up salvage yards and turning them into a nice downtown park. We're going to put in a nice little streetcar. These kinds of developments have been very popular and quite successful. But when you start talking large convention centers, NFL stadiums, commuter rail, and other BIG projects, you're looking at spending more than MAPS 3's entire budget for just one thing. I'm not sure if the city is ready to support such massive projects.

[Spartan]

I think what we have now is "just right." I don't want the NFL.

I'd say go after MLB or MLS if anything. I just don't think the NFL is anything we need to go after.

[hoya]

I view the NFL as the ultimate feather in our cap, if we can get them and support them. It's proof that the city has stepped up to the next tier. While I love having the Thunder, the actual quality of life increase from having a dozen millionaire basketball players living here isn't all that impressive. If you are not a basketball fan, having the team here means very little to you. The benefit is that the rest of the country, and much of the world now recognizes OKC as a pro sports town. The benefit is the good publicity they bring to the city. An NFL team would be the same.

Having the Oklahoma City Cougars (or whatever) playing in an arena downtown against the Dallas Cowboys would be cool as hell, and would draw lots of national attention to our city. You have to be at a certain level of development to support the NFL, so it's basically proof that we got there.

[jedicurt]

i don't think it is going to happen in my life time ......


but all it would take is one billionaire to buy the team and want to move it to OKC ..... Al davis showed that when he moved the raiders back to oakland ... the nfl sued to stop him and he won ....

Actually Al Davis sued the NFL in 1980 (not the other way around) to move the team to LA from Oakland... and he won in 1982, and moved the team in 1983... the Lawsuit in the mid 90's was right around the time that Al was looking to get a new stadium in LA (before the team moved back to Oakland) and Al sued the NFL again when they were talking about expansion into LA, and Al said that he had an exclusive right to be the only team in LA, and this law suit he lost, and shortly their after his stadium deal fell apart, and shortly after that he moved the team back to Oakland.