Penn Square Mall

[soonerliberal]

While Simon has been putting a lot of money into Penn Square for minor renovations, I would not be surprised if over the next five years, they undertake a massive expansion in an effort to capture many of the higher end stores that are looking to Oklahoma City. For a long time, it has been the chicken and the egg problem. Why make the mall tailored to high end stores if no high end stores are going to come to the city because of demographic studies? Now you are seeing a lot of different ones coming in. While there are plenty of exceptions, if you look many cities our size and slightly bigger, a Nordstrom or Saks is often in a mall... and that mall is often within the "outer loop" of the city - close enough to downtown, but not quite all the way out in the burbs. That in addition to Simon investing a lot of money to get upscale stores in their malls around the country (bottom line - high end malls are not the ones that are closing or failing right now) really leads me to believe we will see at least one new garage built and some sort of expansion - even perhaps an outside lifestyle component that a lot of malls have included in the next few years. Or perhaps I'm just wishing too much.

[bchris02]

While Simon has been putting a lot of money into Penn Square for minor renovations, I would not be surprised if over the next five years, they undertake a massive expansion in an effort to capture many of the higher end stores that are looking to Oklahoma City. For a long time, it has been the chicken and the egg problem. Why make the mall tailored to high end stores if no high end stores are going to come to the city because of demographic studies? Now you are seeing a lot of different ones coming in. While there are plenty of exceptions, if you look many cities our size and slightly bigger, a Nordstrom or Saks is often in a mall... and that mall is often within the "outer loop" of the city - close enough to downtown, but not quite all the way out in the burbs. That in addition to Simon investing a lot of money to get upscale stores in their malls around the country (bottom line - high end malls are not the ones that are closing or failing right now) really leads me to believe we will see at least one new garage built and some sort of expansion - even perhaps an outside lifestyle component that a lot of malls have included in the next few years. Or perhaps I'm just wishing too much.

I hope you are right. Penn Square could easily be retrofitted into something larger and more upscale than it is today. Replace most surface parking with garage parking and build another wing and anchor spot.

People don't want to hear it and will probably flame me for saying it, but OKC has very poor retail for a city its size. People can argue that Tulsa doesn't always get everything first, which is true, but nobody can argue that Tulsa doesn't have more upscale retail than OKC. If something is upscale, it has historically went to Tulsa first or in a lot of cases Tulsa only. I am not trying to belittle OKC or make anybody mad, I am just stating reality. I would say most cities the size of OKC would be like Tulsa and OKC's current offerings combined. Tulsa is stronger on the high end and OKC is stronger on the mid/low end.

When you start talking cities that are slightly bigger its an entirely different ballgame. Penn Square Mall may be great by OKC standards but if you drop it in Charlotte, it would be competing with Carolina Place for THIRD or FOURTH best mall in the metro. Charlotte is massive now and its growing so fast it can no longer be compared to OKC, but in the mid 2000s when they remodeled Southpark attracting the type of retailers most Oklahomans drive to Dallas for and built Northlake, it wasn't much larger than OKC is today.

[Plutonic Panda]

I hope you are right. Penn Square could easily be retrofitted into something larger and more upscale than it is today. Replace most surface parking with garage parking and build another wing and anchor spot.

People don't want to hear it and will probably flame me for saying it, but OKC has very poor retail for a city its size. People can argue that Tulsa doesn't always get everything first, which is true, but nobody can argue that Tulsa doesn't have more upscale retail than OKC. If something is upscale, it has historically went to Tulsa first or in a lot of cases Tulsa only. I am not trying to belittle OKC or make anybody mad, I am just stating reality. I would say most cities the size of OKC would be like Tulsa and OKC's current offerings combined. Tulsa is stronger on the high end and OKC is stronger on the mid/low end.

When you start talking cities that are slightly bigger its an entirely different ballgame. Penn Square Mall may be great by OKC standards but if you drop it in Charlotte, it would be competing with Carolina Place for THIRD or FOURTH best mall in the metro. Charlotte is massive now and its growing so fast it can no longer be compared to OKC, but in the mid 2000s when they remodeled Southpark attracting the type of retailers most Oklahomans drive to Dallas for and built Northlake, it wasn't much larger than OKC is today.

As far as Tulsa having "more upscale" shopping than us, I'm going to disagree for the most part. That may be true in a few senses, but not quite. I am somewhat familiar with Tulsa and once we get the Von Maur in place, Tulsa will have seriously lost its edge on us(if they even had one). Another thing to note, if Kroger is going to make a push in the OKC market in the next few years(which is what I hear from one of my cousins who is a regional store director for Krogers), than our grocer scene will be better than Tulsa's.

The only thing I can think of that I am jealous of Tulsa having in terms of retail, is their grocery stores. They do have much more nicer grocers than we do, but with the "upscale" grocers we already have like Uptown, Whole Foods, Native Roots, and maybe you could include include Sprouts on that, we have already made a competitive push, but Tulsa still beats on that, imo. If Tulsa based Reasors enters the market and builds more stores than just Edmond, Uptown expands into other places(Midtown Grocery would really make sense), and Whole Foods build 2-3 more locations(which has been rumored), Tulsa will have lost its edge on us and we will be on the same level as pretty much every other city our size.

If Costco and Krogers enter the market, which is a real possibility, than I'd say we will be "above average" and on a slightly worse scale than Austin or Dallas. If we secure an HEB, Central Market, Harris Teeter, and Tom Thumb. . . . OKC will truly have transformed into badass city with power of over 9000!!!!!!!!!!

[metro]

While Simon has been putting a lot of money into Penn Square for minor renovations, I would not be surprised if over the next five years, they undertake a massive expansion in an effort to capture many of the higher end stores that are looking to Oklahoma City. For a long time, it has been the chicken and the egg problem. Why make the mall tailored to high end stores if no high end stores are going to come to the city because of demographic studies? Now you are seeing a lot of different ones coming in. While there are plenty of exceptions, if you look many cities our size and slightly bigger, a Nordstrom or Saks is often in a mall... and that mall is often within the "outer loop" of the city - close enough to downtown, but not quite all the way out in the burbs. That in addition to Simon investing a lot of money to get upscale stores in their malls around the country (bottom line - high end malls are not the ones that are closing or failing right now) really leads me to believe we will see at least one new garage built and some sort of expansion - even perhaps an outside lifestyle component that a lot of malls have included in the next few years. Or perhaps I'm just wishing too much.

I'm pretty sure if you dig a few pages back, it's already been verified they have expansion plans. Also I believe you mean inner loop and not outer loop.

[bchris02]

I've heard that Penn Square has a long waiting list of tenants wanting to get in and its size is its biggest limitation. One thing I wonder though is if that were true, why are stores like Image opening up in the mall?

[SomeGuy]

I'm guessing they're trying to find a big enough permanent tenant to fill the old Lane Bryant and they're leasing it to Image for the time being or Image must've offered a lot for the space.

[Plutonic Panda]

Really awesome store. Was just there. . . is there any truth to the rumor that Bill Gates was there. Heard a couple people saying that, but I think it is BS. If recall, he owns a lakefront house on Grand Lake though and I can't remember how, but I thought he had some kind of ties to Oklahoma.

[bluedogok]

His wife is from Dallas, a Ursaline graduate. That and his time at MITS in Albuquerque are about the closest ties near Oklahoma that I know of.

[jbrown84]

I'm guessing they're trying to find a big enough permanent tenant to fill the old Lane Bryant and they're leasing it to Image for the time being or Image must've offered a lot for the space.

H&M would be perfect to fill that space but it sounds like they have their eyes on Quail.

[bchris02]

H&M would be perfect to fill that space but it sounds like they have their eyes on Quail.

I think that really is for the best as well. It's in OKC's best interest for both malls to stay healthy. I would like to see more upscale tenants in Penn though and hope low-end tenants like Image and Windsor are kept to a minimum.

[warreng88]

I would like to see Dillards add a floor or two on top of the SW/C location, move the merchandise in the Dillards next to the food court down and then that whole space could easily be an H&M or some other large anchor.

[bchris02]

I would like to see Dillards add a floor or two on top of the SW/C location, move the merchandise in the Dillards next to the food court down and then that whole space could easily be an H&M or some other large anchor.

That's actually a good idea. Instead of having a separate men's and women's Dillard's, expand one and combine them and make the other a Nordstrom or Saks.

[warreng88]

That's actually a good idea. Instead of having a separate men's and women's Dillard's, expand one and combine them and make the other a Nordstrom or Saks.

They did that at Woodland Hills in Tulsa and it looks pretty seamless.

[Mississippi Blues]

That's actually a good idea. Instead of having a separate men's and women's Dillard's, expand one and combine them and make the other a Nordstrom or Saks.

That's the spirit!! It's the most logical solution without having to build onto the mall.

[bchris02]

That's the spirit!! It's the most logical solution without having to build onto the mall.

Agreed. Back in the '90s when I lived in OKC before, there was a single Dillard's at Penn Square and the current Men's Dillard's was Ward's I believe. I doubt Dillard's though would be willing to give up that stop for a competitor though. While this would be the most logical solution, building onto the mall would be far easier because Simon would be in control over that. Dillard's owns most of their stores rather than renting, so getting that space wouldn't be as easy as it seems.

[bchris02]

Here is an example of how an expansion could work. I think this would be amazing if ever done and would propel Penn Square Mall and OKC retail to the next level.

[warreng88]

I am curious if the existing parking garage on the east side could be added to and then extended north into that other parking lot that is so rarely used. If they could widen the road that wraps around the north side of the mall to at least three lanes to make it easy for people to turn in and then have a massive parking structure wrap all the way around the north side of the mall, that would keep the south side of the mall open for expansion in that area between the west Dillards and the east Dillards. But they just did shell out some money to redo both of the entrances facin the south parking lots, so chances of that happening are slim to none. In theory, they could add on to the mall by putting something in south of JCPenny and east of the eastern Dillards. All they would have to do to make that work is make the entrance a little nicer instead of a maintenance hallway. Not sure what would be done with the loading docks on the east side of that Dillards though.

[SomeGuy]

Agreed. Back in the '90s when I lived in OKC before, there was a single Dillard's at Penn Square and the current Men's Dillard's was Ward's I believe. I doubt Dillard's though would be willing to give up that stop for a competitor though. While this would be the most logical solution, building onto the mall would be far easier because Simon would be in control over that. Dillard's owns most of their stores rather than renting, so getting that space wouldn't be as easy as it seems.

Didn't there used to be like a small two floor dillards next to the western ( women's) dillards? I know that the Area where Hollister, express and forever 21 used to be dillards and there was an escalator that led to the south entrance

[Pete]

$250,000 building permit for a new Tilly's at Penn Square.

I know this isn't a super-prestigious retailer but this will be OKC's second location and they have yet to open in Tulsa (don't mean that in a snarky way, just adding them to the list when others try to claim everything goes to Tulsa first).

[adaniel]

But..but I thought Tulsa was the pinnacle of retailing in the Midwest and Versace and Louis Vutton were in bidding wars to get into Utica Square

West coast/skater/surfer wear is surprisingly popular in OKC, especially given the fact we are supposed to all be in cowboy boots and wranglers.

[shawnw]

FYI there was a post somewhere this weekend (can't find it at the moment) saying the renovation was done.

[sgt. pepper]

$250,000 building permit for a new Tilly's at Penn Square.

I know this isn't a super-prestigious retailer but this will be OKC's second location and they have yet to open in Tulsa (don't mean that in a snarky way, just adding them to the list when others try to claim everything goes to Tulsa first).

you can add this when we get a Costco's, Trader Joe's or these other big boys before Tulsa

[bchris02]

Trader Joe's is coming to OKC first and so did Microsoft. Nordstrom Rack also.

The stuff that's a really big deal and high profile i.e. Costco, Saks, Fresh Market, Urban Outfitters, etc going to Tulsa first helps create the perception that they do get everything first. Of course they don't, but a lot more people want and care about Costco or Saks than Tilly's. Good to see Penn Square getting this.

[zookeeper]

As to who is first with another retail store, I couldn't care less, and marvel in wonder at those who do care.

[HangryHippo]

As to who is first with another retail store, I couldn't care less, and marvel in wonder at those who do care.

+1. If we end up with one, who the hell cares who got it first?