Electric Vehicles

[Midtowner]

I for one can't wait to get into an EV since installing solar on my home. I'll no longer be beholden to increased prices at the pump every time some tinpot dictator invades his neighbor. The price of oil is too unstable for it to not eventually be overtaken by other commodities.

[April in the Plaza]

I for one can't wait to get into an EV since installing solar on my home. I'll no longer be beholden to increased prices at the pump every time some tinpot dictator invades his neighbor. The price of oil is too unstable for it to not eventually be overtaken by other commodities.

Tbf, you could make the same argument for lithium prices:

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium

[PhiAlpha]

I for one can't wait to get into an EV since installing solar on my home. I'll no longer be beholden to increased prices at the pump every time some tinpot dictator invades his neighbor. The price of oil is too unstable for it to not eventually be overtaken by other commodities.

Exactly why I bought a CNG Honda Civic earlier this year. Used and not nearly as cool but much cheaper and gas is $1.36-$1.70 if you fill up at ONG. There are plenty of filling stations in OK and Texas.

That said…if I had more money to spend on a second car in addition to my truck…I’d be all over a tesla. If I still owned a home and the credits/incentives made sense (and I they weren’t visible from the front of my house), I’d def look into solar as well.

[PhiAlpha]

Tbf, you could make the same argument for lithium prices:

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium

yeah but that has much less impact on the consumer after the initial vehicle purchase.

[Midtowner]

Tbf, you could make the same argument for lithium prices:

https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium

Either the supply chains will get their acts together, or we'll transition to other battery materials. There are already technologies being worked on which exclude lithium, cobalt, etc. The nice thing is that as far as I can tell, existing lithium batteries could be replaced with newer technology down the line. Also, our lithium supply is mostly from Canada, not a country likely to go to war anytime soon.

[Midtowner]

Exactly why I bought a CNG Honda Civic earlier this year. Used and not nearly as cool but much cheaper and gas is $1.36-$1.70 if you fill up at ONG. There are plenty of filling stations in OK and Texas.

That said…if I had more money to spend on a second car in addition to my truck…I’d be all over a tesla. If I still owned a home and the credits/incentives made sense (and I they weren’t visible from the front of my house), I’d def look into solar as well.

My work takes me all over the state, so CNG isn't a great option as the government has been subsidizing new EV chargers all over the state--not CNG. I've had some close calls with a car that takes premium gas only not being able to find a place to fill up in the small towns I wind up going to. But with solar, I figure I'd spend even less than $1.36-$1.70/equivalent energy unit when I own the means of production.

And with ONG, why aren't you able to install a pump in your garage?

[Midtowner]

yeah but that has much less impact on the consumer after the initial vehicle purchase.

Right, and Tesla, even with the recent price reductions is still making more profit on their cars than anyone else, so it doesn't seem to be that big of a problem.

[PhiAlpha]

My work takes me all over the state, so CNG isn't a great option as the government has been subsidizing new EV chargers all over the state--not CNG. I've had some close calls with a car that takes premium gas only not being able to find a place to fill up in the small towns I wind up going to. But with solar, I figure I'd spend even less than $1.36-$1.70/equivalent energy unit when I own the means of production.

And with ONG, why aren't you able to install a pump in your garage?

I travel all over the state for work as well and have never had any issue finding somewhere to fill up in OK or Texas. Between, loves, ONG and oncue in OK, there’s a CNG station at least every 100 miles or so in any direction you need to go. In some cases it does take minimal planning but I’ve never been inconvenienced by it.

You can install a slow fill pump system in your garage (several companies sell them) or build a more elaborate fast fill system but I live in an apartment so that isn’t an option right now.

[chssooner]

If the US truly wanted to make EVs a priority, they wouldn't have made the credit non-refundable. If you are like me, and always have more taken out to get a refund at year-end, you get no benefit of the tax credit. You can change your withholdings, sure. But even then, a lot won't see a ton of benefit from the credit.

If it were refundable, then I'd order a Tesla today. Just like the child tax credit encourages people to have kids, this should incentive owning one. But I know a ton of people who bought one thinking they got a credit for it. And they were very wrong.

It's even tougher in a state that doesn't incentive them at all, and actively makes it harder to get them by not allowing direct sales of many EVs.

Just kind of discouraging, as I want an EV, but it is not an wasy task getting one.

[April in the Plaza]

If the US truly wanted to make EVs a priority, they wouldn't have made the credit non-refundable. If you are like me, and always have more taken out to get a refund at year-end, you get no benefit of the tax credit. You can change your withholdings, sure. But even then, a lot won't see a ton of benefit from the credit.

If it were refundable, then I'd order a Tesla today. Just like the child tax credit encourages people to have kids, this should incentive owning one. But I know a ton of people who bought one thinking they got a credit for it. And they were very wrong.

can't you just adjust your withholdings pretty substantially? or earn some 1099 income and not pay quarterlies?

[LocoAko]

If the US truly wanted to make EVs a priority, they wouldn't have made the credit non-refundable. If you are like me, and always have more taken out to get a refund at year-end, you get no benefit of the tax credit. You can change your withholdings, sure. But even then, a lot won't see a ton of benefit from the credit.

If it were refundable, then I'd order a Tesla today. Just like the child tax credit encourages people to have kids, this should incentive owning one. But I know a ton of people who bought one thinking they got a credit for it. And they were very wrong.

It's even tougher in a state that doesn't incentive them at all, and actively makes it harder to get them by not allowing direct sales of many EVs.

Just kind of discouraging, as I want an EV, but it is not an wasy task getting one.

Isn't it nonrefundable in that you can't get back more than you owe in taxes total, not just what you'd owe for under/over payment during the year? In other words, as long as your total tax liability (whether paid accurately throughout the year through withholding or due at the time of filing) is at least $7500, you can get the full tax credit (subject to other credits further reducing your tax liability, of course). I don't think it should have any thing to do with withholding or what you owe/what you're owed by the time you file, and the confusion maybe stems from the use of the word 'refund' for people getting back what they've overpaid in taxes. The difference is that you can't "make" money on the credit if your total tax liability is below the credit's worth.

[catcherinthewry]

I have a charging question. I will be getting an F-150 Lightning in a couple of months and I need to choose between the 80 Amp and the 48 Amp chargers. I rarely drive more than 100 miles in a week so I wouldn't need a fast charge very often, but I'd hate to get the 48 Amp charger and find out it's not enough. Can someone who is more electricity knowledgeable than me (probably everyone) give me some advice?

[chssooner]

Isn't it nonrefundable in that you can't get back more than you owe in taxes total, not just what you'd owe for under/over payment during the year? In other words, as long as your total tax liability (whether paid accurately throughout the year through withholding or due at the time of filing) is at least $7500, you can get the full tax credit (subject to other credits further reducing your tax liability, of course). I don't think it should have any thing to do with withholding or what you owe/what you're owed by the time you file, and the confusion maybe stems from the use of the word 'refund' for people getting back what they've overpaid in taxes. The difference is that you can't "make" money on the credit if your total tax liability is below the credit's worth.

I may have misread it. I interpreted it as your liability is your after withholdings amount either owed or due back. But if it is pre, then it might be worth it.

[catch22]

your withholdings have nothing to do with your actual tax liability. They are just estimated payments throughout the year.

[Teo9969]

Non-refundable always and only means the credit will not take your tax liability into the negative. Refundable means after all is said and done, the government may have paid you money for the tax year.

$7,500 in liability for married filing jointly would be $120k taxable income with standard deduction in a 2 child household getting the $4k in child tax credits (taken before the EV credit)

For single, no kids, a $68k taxable income allows you to get the full credit.

To get the full credit in both scenarios gross income would need to be higher than the above dollar-for-dollar by any non-taxable benefit deductions (health/dental/vision/401k etc)

[TheTravellers]

Isn't it nonrefundable in that you can't get back more than you owe in taxes total, not just what you'd owe for under/over payment during the year? In other words, as long as your total tax liability (whether paid accurately throughout the year through withholding or due at the time of filing) is at least $7500, you can get the full tax credit (subject to other credits further reducing your tax liability, of course). I don't think it should have any thing to do with withholding or what you owe/what you're owed by the time you file, and the confusion maybe stems from the use of the word 'refund' for people getting back what they've overpaid in taxes. The difference is that you can't "make" money on the credit if your total tax liability is below the credit's worth.

Yes, this. I claimed it last year because my tax liability to the govt was something like 12,000+. As far as getting the credit for Tesla, no luck - it only applies to companies that have sold less than 250,000 EVs total, I believe, so Ford and Tesla buyers (with maybe others by now) get no credits. I got mine because far less than 250,000 MINI EVs have been sold in the US. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[Martin]

^
i'm not aware of manufacturer production limits for ev tax credit eligibility. my understanding is that the restrictions as of this year are mainly:

• maximum msrp of $55k for cars and $85k for trucks/suv's/crossovers
• minimum requirements for materials/assembly within the united states
• maximum limits on household income

[LocoAko]

^
i'm not aware of manufacturer production limits for ev tax credit eligibility. my understanding is that the restrictions as of this year are mainly:

• maximum msrp of $55k for cars and $85k for trucks/suv's/crossovers
• minimum requirements for materials/assembly within the united states
• maximum limits on household income

Yes, that's correct. I think there may have been production limits in place before the Inflation Reduction Act updates to the EV credit last year. Starting with vehicles produced in April 2023, all new Tesla Model 3 and Model Y vehicles qualify for the full credit (subject to the MSRP limitations, income limits, etc). It looks like the vehicles that currently qualify for the full EV credit are:

- Tesla Model 3
- Tesla Model Y
- Volkswagon ID.4
- Rivian R1S and R1T
- Ford F-150 Lightning
- Ford Mustang Mach-E
- Cadillac LYRIQ
- Chevrolet Blazer, Bolt, Equinox, and Silverado

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml

[Jersey Boss]

There was this also https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorz...h=95fe9b3399a2 I just drove to Vegas it was 100 the whole trip there and back even in New Mexico. I got 36.2 miles to the gallon in my ford focus $250 in gas round trip. I even went to Phoenix before Vegas for 2 days. Way back from Vegas I had to stop 3 times for gas. I can't see stopping every 250 miles to charge my car.

The recent Reuters piece about exaggerated mileage claims that Tesla makes based on Elon's directive does make one question about buying a Tesla vehicle.

[April in the Plaza]

The recent Reuters piece about exaggerated mileage claims that Tesla makes based on Elon's directive does make one question about buying a Tesla vehicle.

every manufacturer exaggerates estimated range.

also, wild to see that Ford is losing this much cash on every ev sold: https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/fo...duction-goals/.

[Jersey Boss]

every manufacturer exaggerates estimated range.

also, wild to see that Ford is losing this much cash on every ev sold: https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/fo...duction-goals/.

https://electrek.co/2023/07/27/tesla...report-states/
Please back up your every manufacturer claim with more than a personal opinion. This involved the software showing the range on the dashboard.
Tesla was also unique in getting fined a couple of million for mileage exaggerations by Korea. While you're at it see if you can find similar directives from other CEO's.

[TheTravellers]

^
i'm not aware of manufacturer production limits for ev tax credit eligibility. my understanding is that the restrictions as of this year are mainly:

• maximum msrp of $55k for cars and $85k for trucks/suv's/crossovers
• minimum requirements for materials/assembly within the united states
• maximum limits on household income

Yeah, good point, what I was referring to was the old way of doing things:

https://evadoption.com/ev-sales/fede...-by-automaker/

Since I had already gotten my MINI and dealt with the credit, I didn't pay much attention to the new regulations, so here are the EVs that currently qualify:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/0...ation-00092123

Glad I got mine before all the new stuff went into effect, otherwise I wouldn't have gotten any tax credit.

[April in the Plaza]

https://electrek.co/2023/07/27/tesla...report-states/
Please back up your every manufacturer claim with more than a personal opinion. This involved the software showing the range on the dashboard.
Tesla was also unique in getting fined a couple of million for mileage exaggerations by Korea. While you're at it see if you can find similar directives from other CEO's.

Weird that you would attempt to call what is an obvious fact a personal opinion. Very weird.

https://www.energylivenews.com/2023/...rmakers-claim/
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/...ed/ar-AA19lq0B
https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publ...r-group/282208

[Jersey Boss]

Weird that you would attempt to call what is an obvious fact a personal opinion. Very weird.

https://www.energylivenews.com/2023/...rmakers-claim/
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/...ed/ar-AA19lq0B
https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publ...r-group/282208

Weird that you are defending Tesla by saying all do it. Yet you fail to acknowledge that Tesla is worse than the others. 45 miles on the average of all EVs Model Y a hundred miles. Also you fail to acknowledge Tesla being so bad that the Korean government fined only Tesla 200m because they are so off. Context.

[gjl]

Don't hook up a trailer to your F150 EV. You know, a vehicle that should be able to pull a trailer.