Convention Center

[betts]

maps 4

Hopefully our civic leaders realize that they need to make their constituency happy about MAPS 3 before they can start thinking about MAPS 4. Very few voters even wanted a new convention center, and while an architectural wonder might make everyone proud, I don't think we're going to be able to afford an architectural wonder. It's the park, the streetcar and sidewalks that were the driving forces that passed MAPS 3, and they all need to satisfy voter expectations.

[Spartan]

No, I think these otherwise sound business people actually believe a convention center will be a huge economic development catalyst. It's a joke. Forest, trees, etc.

But if a tree falls down in a forest that happens to be located inside a convention center...

[Larry OKC]

betts: you are right but how many of the current Council will still be in place when/if a MAPS 4 comes up? Council members and Mayor's come and go. The only constant that seems to have run through all of the MAPS is Jim Couch and he is one that needs to go.

[jn1780]

They wanted to be moved up because they didn't want to risk having the convention center be the only project on the "Let's Finish MAPS III Right" campaign. Let's not forget, this is just phase 1. The CC committee already said that 2 phases will be necessary to meet their growth projections. No funding has been identified for phase 2 but without it they said phase 1 would be a failure. That kind of puts someone on the hook to pay for it because not doing it is not an option.

Spot on Larry. Building a new convention center because it will increase attendance by a significant amount is the biggest lie being told today.

If your second quote becomes obvious after phase 1 is completed then there's never going to be a phase 2.

[kevinpate]

If your second quote becomes obvious after phase 1 is completed then there's never going to be a phase 2.

Nah. It can be downright amazing just how short attention spans truly are in such matters. Find the right boogyman and folks will vote in favor of just about anything.

[BoulderSooner]

betts: you are right but how many of the current Council will still be in place when/if a MAPS 4 comes up? Council members and Mayor's come and go. The only constant that seems to have run through all of the MAPS is Jim Couch and he is one that needs to go.

do you really think that lots of the council will be different in 5 years?? a maps 4 vote will come in 2017

[Just the facts]

If your second quote becomes obvious after phase 1 is completed then there's never going to be a phase 2.

See, that is the 'mirrors', in the phrase 'smoke and mirrors'. We will have to build Phase 2 so we can save Phase 1. They didn't want the CC to be the only project on the "Finish MAPS III Right" campaign. They would rather have Phase 2 in MAPS IV.

[GaryOKC6]

The great thing about this forum is that we are all entitled to our own opinion. I personally voted for all the MAPS projects and have never been disappointed. Depending on the content, I will probibly support MAPS4 if there is such a thing. This a great city that is willing to invest in itself. At the end of the day the fact is that the projects are now in motion and we can all work together to make them the best that they can be. If the past success is any indication of what is to come they I say bring them on. I feel that MAPS has been great for our city, great for our economy and will be great for our future.

[jbrown84]

The anti-convention center contingent makes good points. I'd say I'm neutral at this juncture. It just seems like waving the white flag to not try to compete in something so prominent as conventions. And I disagree that there's nothing for people to do here.

[Spartan]

The great thing about this forum is that we are all entitled to our own opinion. I personally voted for all the MAPS projects and have never been disappointed. Depending on the content, I will probibly support MAPS4 if there is such a thing. This a great city that is willing to invest in itself. At the end of the day the fact is that the projects are now in motion and we can all work together to make them the best that they can be. If the past success is any indication of what is to come they I say bring them on. I feel that MAPS has been great for our city, great for our economy and will be great for our future.

YES to:
Investing in ourselves
Improving the business climate
Facilities for business visitors
Downtown improvement
Quality of life amenities
Transit upgrades
Facilities for events
Upgrading OKC's profile

NO to:
Wasting tons of money
Throwing $ behind a waning idea
Decimating downtown
Separating two parks
Eating up the best development site
Bungling prime boulevard frontage
Insisting on a 90s wet dream in 2012

My point is just that we could use that $250 million for a better use, and while obviously I would first say transit would be an infinitely better investment, if it absolutely can't go to transit then I would still say there is probably at least a much, much more innovative idea for a business visitor facility that would benefit OKC. A convention center will do absolutely nothing for us.

When I was living in Calgary I always loved the fact that they had a tiny, but very nice, convention center that wasn't in the way of anything, despite its central location. And nobody can disagree that Calgary is a major, major North American business hub, esp for the oil industry.

I have frequently brought up the idea of a medical mart, or turning the idea into an OKC-unique concept like an energy mart or aerospace mart or even just a massive $250 million tech incubator, but NOBODY ever responds to that idea. I wonder what that is.. why the dialog is so insistent on a convention center (as conceptualized in the 90s) and no other facility type.

We will absolutely fail if we don't get innovative and think outside the box.

[Pete]

The anti-convention center contingent makes good points. I'd say I'm neutral at this juncture. It just seems like waving the white flag to not try to compete in something so prominent as conventions. And I disagree that there's nothing for people to do here.

I agree.

Also, the convention center is already approved so the discussion about building one or not is moot... It's more about making sure they stay on budget, don't make huge city planning mistakes, etc.

[Just the facts]

I support a new convention center, but not for the reasons provided by the CC Committee. I support a new convention center so the Cox site can be redeveloped. I also don't like the location because it does more harm than good to the urban fabric we are trying to build. Like an atom attracting other atoms to build molecules, the building blocks of the urban fabric need to have a hook that adjacent development can cling to. An absence of hooks means no development takes and weak bonds will break under pressure.

[Spartan]

I agree.

Also, the convention center is already approved so the discussion about building one or not is moot... It's more about making sure they stay on budget, don't make huge city planning mistakes, etc.

I would also throw in to not make a huge economic development mistake, as well. Because that committee doesn't care about city planning mistakes. They embody that unfortunately.

[ethansisson]

NO to:
Wasting tons of money
Throwing $ behind a waning idea
Decimating downtown
Separating two parks
Eating up the best development site
Bungling prime boulevard frontage
Insisting on a 90s wet dream in 2012

Yep. I don't want to be melodramatic, but these things make the current plans for the CC pretty tragic to me. I'm extremely frustrated particularly by the site choice.

[GaryOKC6]

YES to:
Investing in ourselves
Improving the business climate
Facilities for business visitors
Downtown improvement
Quality of life amenities
Transit upgrades
Facilities for events
Upgrading OKC's profile

NO to:
Wasting tons of money
Throwing $ behind a waning idea
Decimating downtown
Separating two parks
Eating up the best development site
Bungling prime boulevard frontage
Insisting on a 90s wet dream in 2012

My point is just that we could use that $250 million for a better use, and while obviously I would first say transit would be an infinitely better investment, if it absolutely can't go to transit then I would still say there is probably at least a much, much more innovative idea for a business visitor facility that would benefit OKC. A convention center will do absolutely nothing for us.

When I was living in Calgary I always loved the fact that they had a tiny, but very nice, convention center that wasn't in the way of anything, despite its central location. And nobody can disagree that Calgary is a major, major North American business hub, esp for the oil industry.

I have frequently brought up the idea of a medical mart, or turning the idea into an OKC-unique concept like an energy mart or aerospace mart or even just a massive $250 million tech incubator, but NOBODY ever responds to that idea. I wonder what that is.. why the dialog is so insistent on a convention center (as conceptualized in the 90s) and no other facility type.

We will absolutely fail if we don't get innovative and think outside the box.

Like I said, the great thing about this forum is that we all can share our different opinions. I am not bothered by seperating the parks if it is done rignt. I actually like the idea. As fas a s wasting tons of money I don't know that is the case. We won't find out until the project is finished. You could be right, the fact is we dont know that. The reason for my optimism is that the other MAPS projects have all turned our very well in my book. I use and enjopy most of them and would do it all again if the choice where there. Thanks.

[Rover]

Most people don't understand niche marketing. They look at markets as being one monolithic structure. Even within poor or declining markets are growing and profitable niches. The key to success here is building a flexible facility that can adapt to niches in convention markets and to market smartly. If we can market to cutting edge requirements we will be successful financially and will create a public use space available to serve local requirements. So, to me, the issue isn't to have or not have a cc, but rather is it designed to meet OUR needs and to be flexible for change. That and the location issue.

[Just the facts]

What would be OKCs convention niche? Is there enough of the niche market that if we captured 100% of it would bost Cox attendance by 300%?

[Rover]

Of course there is. Just because you aren't aware doesn't mean it doesn't exist and people don't know how to market to it.

[Just the facts]

Of course there is. Just because you aren't aware doesn't mean it doesn't exist and people don't know how to market to it.

And what would that niche be - oil and gas conventions? Does anyone know the average annual attendance of COX conventions (not including hockey games)?

[CaptDave]

Of course there is. Just because you aren't aware doesn't mean it doesn't exist and people don't know how to market to it.

And what would that niche be - oil and gas conventions? Does anyone know the average annual attendance of COX conventions (not including hockey games)?

What would be OKCs convention niche? Is there enough of the niche market that if we captured 100% of it would bost Cox attendance by 300%?

This is why I was wondering aloud earlier if one or more of the energy companies has plans to start some kind of oil/gas/energy convention for independent producers. Some of you folks in the industry please chime in if there is such a thing presently because I have no idea, but think OKC could be a natural location for such an annual event. Larry Nichols' involvement on the CC subcommittee is what started me thinking about this type of event specifically. He is influential enough to bring about things of this nature and he has an excellent track record of positive work for OKC.

Personally I would like to see OKC become even more of an "energy capitol" than it is presently. Our locally based energy companies certainly have the wherewithal to pull off something big in this regard. I assume there are some events in Houston but thought maybe they would be dominated by the Exxons and Valeros of the energy sector. OKC has a large number of independents that could be influential enough to bring that entire sector together. Is there another city with 4 independent producers of the size we have in Devon, Continental, Sand Ridge, and Chesapeake?

Also, what about biotech events? With OU's purchase of Presbyterian Health Foundation I think we could see an increase in bio tech focused events at a new CC. We also have a relatively robust aerospace industry in OK, but I think maybe other locations have those type of conventions locked up.

I am trying to come up with potential recurring events of sufficient magnitude a $250 - $400 million investment in a CC and hotel could be justified. I am not wild about the designated location, but I am trying to be positive about the possible benefits a new CC might bring to our city.

[Cocaine]

With what visitors? How is this tied to a tourism or visitor study that shows how/why people do or could come to OKC? We're probably going to get more out of the fairgrounds improvements, much cheaper, than the CC project in all honesty. The fairgrounds is a legitimate success that is existing we can reasonably assume is stable enough to build on and make even more competitive.

The business community downtown is booming. But is a convention center the only way in which we can facilitate business visitors??? What else, outside the box, could we do for business visitors with $250 MILLION??? What about a medical mart, or an energy mart, modeled after several of the new medical marts...or a huge, massive tech/research incubator, or something like that. I think there is a lot we could do with $250 million that would realistically improve our business climate, if that $250 million must be tied to something for business visitors.

a robot mart. dude we could make OKC the robot capitol of north america. But on a serious not $250 million spent on public transportation would go very far.

[Just the facts]

But on a serious note $250 million spent on public transportation would go very far.

Can you imagine what kind of streetcar system OKC could put in for $380 million. On second thought, don't think about it.

[CaptDave]

Can you imagine what kind of streetcar system OKC could put in for $380 million. On second thought, don't think about it.

Hurts my head.....

[Rover]

Or 250 million for the worlds largest bar, dry cleaners, and Walgreens. That's what some people think drives the economy and urban development.

[Cocaine]

Can you imagine what kind of streetcar system OKC could put in for $380 million. On second thought, don't think about it.

Yeah and at the price we probably would have gotten federal funding to because the street car actually would have went some where.