Criterion Concert Hall

[Spartan]

And Third Eye Blind. They are 3 for 3 on shows I'd love to go to...

[Colbafone]

Mostly black metal and doom, but I dig some death metal as well. Last year, Mayhem and Watain toured together and hit the HoB in Dallas, but I had to miss it. If they had a show in OKC, I'd have been able to see them. The year prior, I had to miss the Behemoth, Goatwhore, 1349, & Inquisition tour, which stopped at the House of Blues in Dallas. I did go to HoB Dallas to see Ghost and Behemoth in recent years, so it's my hope that all these great tours that hop over OKC on their way to Dallas will stop at the Criterion. It's rare for them to stop at the Diamond, although I'm grateful when they do.

Behemoth and Goatwhore were both at the Chameleon Room two summers ago. I know because my buddies band, Dischordia, opened for them. Pretty awesome concert. Unfortunately the Chameleon Room is gone.

[Colbafone]

Also Black Crown Initiate played like two weeks later at the Chameleon Room. It was an awesome month for metal.

[Urbanized]

I found Poppe's quotes in that article to be completely misguided. First off, as has been pointed out up-thread, Cain's existed for years as one of the best venues in the region if not the nation with ZERO amenities nearby. NOTHING. ZIP. Imagine OKC's Farmers Market - except without Powerhouse and with pipe and other industrial yards instead of produce sellers - and you have a close approximation of what it was like around Cain's for DECADES. I didn't hurt Cain's viability AT ALL. They were still bringing great shows. As was mentioned previously, the venue will attract the surrounding services, not the other way around.

Second, he makes it seem like there is an amazing cluster of bars all around Cain's, and zero bars and restaurants near Criterion. Both things couldn't be further from the truth. There are two great bars, Yeti and (especially good) Soundpony, then it's about a block-and-a-half walk to Hunt Club and a couple of others, then even further to the rest of the bars in the surrounding district. The type of bar that is best is a matter of taste, of course, but I will promise that there are more bars within a minute or two walk of Criterion than there are Cain's, and there are likely to be even more when Steelyard comes online. Cain's is still pretty remote (though getting better), and to suggest otherwise is pretty disingenuous.

Finally, there is the comment he made about "a million bucks to park". I don't think it was intentional, but once again this was a dishonest comparison. Yes, you can still park for free in the angled-parking spots running down the street, but don't plan on doing so unless you get there hours before the show. The parking lots surrounding Cain's and Brady are now nearly all paid, JUST LIKE LOTS IN A THRIVING URBAN ENTERTAINMENT DISTRICT USUALLY ARE. More and more are paid every time I visit, and that's perfectly OK. If I can't afford to pay five bucks to park I probably have no business traveling up the turnpike to see a show. As for the Criterion, if you must have free parking, Deep Deuce is only a couple of blocks away.

I respect Poppe, but I think his comments come from a stubbornness that the cool kids have regarding assigning any cool factor to Bricktown or accepting that it is emerging as the live music district in OKC. Will great restaurant/retail/services in The Steelyard and surrounding area likely be hugely beneficial for the experience of going to a show at The Criterion and nearby venues? Of course. And in turn the shows WILL have a huge impact on neighboring establishments. But the nearby bars will NOT be make-or-break for the venue; that all boils down to shows.

[Pete]

^

You can easily walk to/from the Wedge, Slaughter's Hall, WSKY, Deep Deuce Grill, Urban Johnnies and Anchor Down in Deep Deuce as well.

Then of course, you have a ton of great existing places in Bricktown very nearby.


I often think that people here don't actually get out and walk around these districts to see how easy and close all these things are.

Think about events at CHK or the Cox Center. People park blocks away and walk in. Same thing will happen here and I imagine many people will arrive early for a meal and/or drinks, or stay afterwards for the same.

[TheTravellers]

Mostly black metal and doom, but I dig some death metal as well. Last year, Mayhem and Watain toured together and hit the HoB in Dallas, but I had to miss it. If they had a show in OKC, I'd have been able to see them. The year prior, I had to miss the Behemoth, Goatwhore, 1349, & Inquisition tour, which stopped at the House of Blues in Dallas. I did go to HoB Dallas to see Ghost and Behemoth in recent years, so it's my hope that all these great tours that hop over OKC on their way to Dallas will stop at the Criterion. It's rare for them to stop at the Diamond, although I'm grateful when they do.

Ghost is going to be at the Diamond on 5/17, if you didn't already know. I only remember that because there's a great Japanese band named Ghost, and I wondered why they were playing the Diamond in OKC, lol....

[shawnw]

You can easily walk to/from the Wedge, Slaughter's Hall, WSKY, Deep Deuce Grill, Urban Johnnies and Anchor Down in Deep Deuce as well.

Easy for most, including myself. But neither route -- via the tracks/parking lot behind Wedge or via Russell Perry -- has sidewalks to speak of, which remains a major annoyance for most, but possibly a non-trivial impediment for others... just wondering how long until this oversight is addressed...

[White Peacock]

Ghost is going to be at the Diamond on 5/17, if you didn't already know. I only remember that because there's a great Japanese band named Ghost, and I wondered why they were playing the Diamond in OKC, lol....

Already got my tickets! For a while, the Swedish Ghost had to go by Ghost B.C. in the US because of a conflict with the Japanese band. I guess they got it cleared up and they've reverted back to their original Ghost.

[White Peacock]

Behemoth and Goatwhore were both at the Chameleon Room two summers ago. I know because my buddies band, Dischordia, opened for them. Pretty awesome concert. Unfortunately the Chameleon Room is gone.

Interesting. The tour announcement included the Chameleon Room gig, but the Chameleon Room never advertised it themselves, and when I contacted them directly they informed me that the booking agency jumped the gun and the date was never confirmed and wouldn't be held. The most recent event I can find confirming Behemoth stopped in OKC was in 2012 when two festivals met in the same spot with Watain, The Devil's Blood, Cannibal Corpse, and others. Fantastic show, by the way.

Looks like the show you're talking about was Goatwhore headlining and Black Crown Initiate either co-headlining or opening; Dischordia opened that show. There was no Behemoth at that one.

[2Lanez]

Easy for most, including myself. But neither route -- via the tracks/parking lot behind Wedge or via Russell Perry -- has sidewalks to speak of, which remains a major annoyance for most, but possibly a non-trivial impediment for others... just wondering how long until this oversight is addressed...

Right. There's just a much cooler, more urban vibe along Brady and Main in Tulsa. Full blocks of historic, all-brick buildings, construction out to the street and big sidewalks. I hear Urbanized on the anti-Bricktown sentiment, but in comparison to the Brady District, not all of it is unfounded.

[shawnw]

My comments were strictly limited to accessibility

[Pete]

Right. There's just a much cooler, more urban vibe along Brady and Main in Tulsa. Full blocks of historic, all-brick buildings, construction out to the street and big sidewalks. I hear Urbanized on the anti-Bricktown sentiment, but in comparison to the Brady District, not all of it is unfounded.

It's funny how people here completely discount the incredible amount of historic building stock in Bricktown and double the amount of restaurants and bars there vs. basically the same area covered by the Brady District.

Bricktown will soon have 10-12 hotels... How many in the Brady? 1? Any residential at all? Certainly nothing like the canal, boat rides, modern movie theater, etc. How many decent sized office buildings and employers?

Sheridan will soon be almost solid on both sides of the street between the RR tracks and Lincoln, pretty much all built out to the curb and a much longer stretch than any urban district in Tulsa.


I don't want to turn this into yet another Tulsa/OKC pissing contest but Bricktown is much, much more developed than any other urban district in the state and has way more in the pipeline as well.

[bchris02]

The perception of Bricktown would change with a reconfiguration of the streets to make it more pedestrian friendly and less auto-focused. Also, more placemaking is necessary. Tulsa's Brady District "feels" nicer, not because of what its offers but because its built for people first rather than cars first. It's the same deal with West End in Dallas or Old Town in Wichita.

Something like P180 or the ongoing Western Ave project in Bricktown would be awesome and it would drastically change the feel of the area. There will be no need for Reno and Sheridan to be wide, four lane expressways once the new boulevard is complete.

[Pete]

^

Bricktown has an active plan to completely redo the sidewalks and lots of the landscaping.


By the way, Shawn's comments were about walking to and from Deep Duece and Bricktown, not within Bricktown itself. Let's please (and I mean you bchris) not seize on yet another somewhat critical comment and ride off in a bunch of different negative directions.

As things stand now, there are absolutely zero issues walking around and to and from various places within Bricktown.

[sooner88]

Barring any extraordinary events, there should be plenty of time to complete construction by Ben Rector's show on March 26th, right? I assume that brick will go up faster than I am thinking and the build out on the inside is relatively minimal.

[Pete]

Easy for most, including myself. But neither route -- via the tracks/parking lot behind Wedge or via Russell Perry -- has sidewalks to speak of, which remains a major annoyance for most, but possibly a non-trivial impediment for others... just wondering how long until this oversight is addressed...

Actually, there is a brand new sidewalk all along Russel Perry from Deep Deuce into Bricktown.

The Hill just put it in up to the tracks, then it picks up from there in front of what will be the Hyatt and AC Hotels. They have already put in those sidewalks and completely red-done the intersection at Sheridan and there are also new sidewalks on the south side of Sheridan and there will be on both sides all the way to Lincoln once the Steelyard and all those projects are complete.

[bchris02]

By the way, Shawn's comments were about walking to and from Deep Duece and Bricktown, not within Bricktown itself. Let's please (and I mean you bchris) not seize on yet another somewhat critical comment and ride off in a bunch of different negative directions.

My response was to 2Lanez, who brought Tulsa into the conversation saying the Brady District feels more urban and inviting. He isn't the only person I've ever heard say that, and I was simply stating why people feel that way.

That's the thing with good urbanism. People know they like it, but a lot of people don't understand why they like it until you point out certain things.

[Pete]

And people from other cities think Bricktown is amazingly urban and inviting and it certainly is in many respects. Guarantee you that way, way more people go to Bricktown every year than the Brady District.

The grass is always greener and objectively, there is way more density and everything else in Bricktown.

[PhiAlpha]

I found Poppe's quotes in that article to be completely misguided. First off, as has been pointed out up-thread, Cain's existed for years as one of the best venues in the region if not the nation with ZERO amenities nearby. NOTHING. ZIP. Imagine OKC's Farmers Market - except without Powerhouse and with pipe and other industrial yards instead of produce sellers - and you have a close approximation of what it was like around Cain's for DECADES. I didn't hurt Cain's viability AT ALL. They were still bringing great shows. As was mentioned previously, the venue will attract the surrounding services, not the other way around.

Second, he makes it seem like there is an amazing cluster of bars all around Cain's, and zero bars and restaurants near Criterion. Both things couldn't be further from the truth. There are two great bars, Yeti and (especially good) Soundpony, then it's about a block-and-a-half walk to Hunt Club and a couple of others, then even further to the rest of the bars in the surrounding district. The type of bar that is best is a matter of taste, of course, but I will promise that there are more bars within a minute or two walk of Criterion than there are Cain's, and there are likely to be even more when Steelyard comes online. Cain's is still pretty remote (though getting better), and to suggest otherwise is pretty disingenuous.

Finally, there is the comment he made about "a million bucks to park". I don't think it was intentional, but once again this was a dishonest comparison. Yes, you can still park for free in the angled-parking spots running down the street, but don't plan on doing so unless you get there hours before the show. The parking lots surrounding Cain's and Brady are now nearly all paid, JUST LIKE LOTS IN A THRIVING URBAN ENTERTAINMENT DISTRICT USUALLY ARE. More and more are paid every time I visit, and that's perfectly OK. If I can't afford to pay five bucks to park I probably have no business traveling up the turnpike to see a show. As for the Criterion, if you must have free parking, Deep Deuce is only a couple of blocks away.

I respect Poppe, but I think his comments come from a stubbornness that the cool kids have regarding assigning any cool factor to Bricktown or accepting that it is emerging as the live music district in OKC. Will great restaurant/retail/services in The Steelyard and surrounding area likely be hugely beneficial for the experience of going to a show at The Criterion and nearby venues? Of course. And in turn the shows WILL have a huge impact on neighboring establishments. But the nearby bars will NOT be make-or-break for the venue; that all boils down to shows.

All very good points.

[Plutonic Panda]

And people from other cities think Bricktown is amazingly urban and inviting and it certainly is in many respects. Guarantee you that way, way more people go to Bricktown every year than the Brady District.

The grass is always greener and objectively, there is way more density and everything else in Bricktown.

+1

[Spartan]

The person you're talking about is a music writer. He writes about music. He has never once covered urban development/planning/community.

I think he's just trying to say that Cain's is great because it has authenticity of place going for it, but he's still searching for those words and the deadline came and went. He's right that Criterion won't immediately have that unless we do some placemaking efforts designed to specifically add character to a stark, newly-minted urban neighborhood.

That said, I don't think lacking a distinctive neighborhood vibe will hold Criterion back. It's not as if anyone will confuse this for the Bricktown Events Center, which is very blah.

[sooner88]

As long as they have LiveNation booking for them there should never be a problem.

[Spartan]

Right. I think this whole discussion, which is really just a constructive debate that Poppe has seemingly started, is more about the concert-going experience. We know this will be successful on paper. But you build it, get the best booking agent, bring in the right mix of shows, have a good mix of bars and booze around - then what? I think that's the point.

We will need to take a new look at Bricktown as a whole once this east end of it is finally finished. Once the dirt stops moving, reevaluate what we have. Then engineer the visitor experience. We'll still have the same family friendly components as always, but we'll have added new hotels, concert venues, restaurants, bars, and living as well. I imagine a lot of house parties in new apartments popping up in Bricktown, which to me is why someone would pay extra to live there to begin with. The overall product is a tapestry with unique concentrations scattered around.

Really, now is probably the time to re-streetscape Bricktown. We know this needs to be done. I'd argue better to get all of the construction out of the way now, but alas, that's not happening. It would be beneficial to do streetscaping and placemaking consistently on Sheridan and Reno, which would tie all of these concentrations together. So that way someone coming to the Criterion also gets to experience Old Bricktown, so they won't come away thinking it was all bland and newly-minted. We need coffee shops in the new east end to draw family tourists from Old Bricktown, so they don't come away thinking Bricktown isn't getting new businesses. Also most of the hotels are developing toward the east end of the district - they will need a streetscape that facilitates their wayfinding and walkability to the CBD core for meetings, conventions, etc.

Lastly: The streetscape will be HUGE for all of these goals, as it traverses Sheridan and Reno. Maybe that is both our streetscaping and placemaking impetus, and tearing up those streets can be done in conjunction with public art, wayfinding signage, sidewalk treatments, etc...

[shawnw]

Actually, there is a brand new sidewalk all along Russel Perry from Deep Deuce into Bricktown.

The Hill just put it in up to the tracks, then it picks up from there in front of what will be the Hyatt and AC Hotels. They have already put in those sidewalks and completely red-done the intersection at Sheridan and there are also new sidewalks on the south side of Sheridan and there will be on both sides all the way to Lincoln once the Steelyard and all those projects are complete.

I've walked that way a bunch but probably not since the new sidewalks, so I stand corrected and will check it out soon.

[Pete]

It's really just that little stretch along a vacant lot in Deep Deuce where the ugly hotel was nixed.

Besides that and and directly over the tracks, things are a millions times better.