NFL in OKC

[Urbanized]

While the breakdowns above were mostly excellent, one of the biggest reasons we won't see the NFL here for a long time isn't listed; the Thunder's influential ownership. Right now the NBA enjoys exclusivity in this market from the standpoint of corporate sponsorship AND fan interest.

A second major league franchise would dilute this to the point where one or even both might no longer be financially competitive in their respective leagues. That's the reality of a small market. Right now the Thunder is one of the most profitable teams in the league, and they aim to stay that way.

Considering the fact that a new team would almost certainly require taxpayer support (facilities), corporate support and perhaps even some level of local ownership - and owing to how cozy and unified of purpose the local business community and public sector are - rest assured that anyone looking to move another team here would get a SERIOUSLY cold shoulder.

[Laramie]

NFL's drawing area is a 150-mile radius:

OKC-Tulsa-Fort Smith-Lawton-Wichita Falls areas have the population numbers, the current corporate support just isn't there; however, the same was said when OKC was in pursuit of the NHL and landed the more lucrative NBA.

OKC's demographics are comparable to New Orleans. NOLA has the hotel support & tourism dollars that makes a difference. Dr. Tom Benson owns both the NFL Saints & NBA Pelicans. 2 OKC Thunder owners: Bennett & McClendon's boyhood dreams were to purchase the Dallas Cowboys and move them to Oklahoma City.

150-mile radius Oklahoma NFL-TV household market potential is 2.5 million TV sets: Bulk in Oklahoma City (701,070), Tulsa (519,190), Wichita (439,330), Fort Smith, AR-OK (296,160), Wichita Falls-Lawton (152,490) and Sherman-Ada (123,9000). RE: http://www.tvb.org/media/file/2015-2016-dma-ranks.pdf

Opposition: This wouldn't set well with OU, OSU, TU and the Dallas Cowboys. OU would be asked to lease their 85,000-seat Memorial Stadium until MAPS for NFL Pigskin passes a stadium that would be no less that $600 million (70,000-seats).

Conclusion: Right now (pre 2020), it wouldn't work.

Post 2020: OKC will be on the NFL's radar; an NFL venue 70,000-seat retractable roof stadium on MAPS V (March 2022, completion 2025) would swell to an estimated $1.5 billion, this would be a game-changer.

[Laramie]

Will OKC taxpayers be seriously interested in helping to pay the cost to build a NFL stadium?

That is a MAPS V (2022) billion dollar plus question; an ownership group would have to chip in sizeable amount.

[TU 'cane]

I should add that I didn't originally list L.A. due to obvious reasons if you follow the NFL: L.A. is most assuredly getting one or two franchise relocations approved very, very soon.

[gopokes88]

Was that what you or others were saying 10-15 years ago about OKC getting a pro basketball team?

Others.

And it has nothing to do with OKC and everything to with TV partners. They aren't shelling out more money for a product that is 100% saturated already. Its like trying to add more water to soaked sponge. It's pretty much at its limit. The only place the NFL is relocating to is London after LA. JAX will move there.

I also highly doubt they'll be awarding expansion teams anytime soon, the league is a perfect size at 32. 8 divisions, 4 teams each. 4 division winners plus 2 wild card teams per league. The only number that makes sense after that is 40. 40 teams would dilute the talent to much and quality would drop off. The long term NFL outlook already says there will be a drop off soon anyway because less and less kids grow up playing football. They can make more money playing basketball or baseball with less long term risk, AP makes $10 million/year best RB in the league, Jeremy Lamb makes $7 million. NBA lux tax level will almost be what the NFL cap is in a few years except 15 players versus 53. Don't forget that parents aren't allowing their kids to play football, if they don't play it they aren't as likely to develop a love for it.

You guys are dreaming. The NFL has major major issues staring them down and expansion is very low on their radar. If I'm wrong I'll eat some crow in ten years, but I highly doubt I am.

[Jersey Boss]

I should add that I didn't originally list L.A. due to obvious reasons if you follow the NFL: L.A. is most assuredly getting one or two franchise relocations approved very, very soon.

Maybe, maybe not. Right now not having a team in LA allows owners in established markets of being able to extort the citizens for new and upgraded facilities on the tax payers dime.

[gopokes88]

Maybe, maybe not. Right now not having a team in LA allows owners in established markets of being able to extort the citizens for new and upgraded facilities on the tax payers dime.

NBA doing the exact same thing to Seattle. Kings and Bucks have both gotten new arenas. Sucks for Seattle and LA. However, in LA's case since just about every team now has a new stadium (that'll pay for it) the move is looking more and more likely. I think Raiders are gone for sure. 50/50 whether bolts or rams are next.

[TU 'cane]

Others.

I also highly doubt they'll be awarding expansion teams anytime soon, the league is a perfect size at 32. 8 divisions, 4 teams each. 4 division winners plus 2 wild card teams per league. The only number that makes sense after that is 40. 40 teams would dilute the talent to much and quality would drop off. The long term NFL outlook already says there will be a drop off soon anyway because less and less kids grow up playing football. They can make more money playing basketball or baseball with less long term risk, AP makes $10 million/year best RB in the league, Jeremy Lamb makes $7 million. NBA lux tax level will almost be what the NFL cap is in a few years except 15 players versus 53. Don't forget that parents aren't allowing their kids to play football, if they don't play it they aren't as likely to develop a love for it.

You guys are dreaming. The NFL has major major issues staring them down and expansion is very low on their radar. If I'm wrong I'll eat some crow in ten years, but I highly doubt I am.

I'm right there with you.
I'd be surprised if the NFL expands. They won't add an odd number due to how successful the 32 team format has been, so that means adding something divisible by an even number, so 36 I think would be the next one to avoid awkward division and playoff formatting. Although they could follow what the MLB did and have a 2 team wild card play in game.

Despite the fact that the NFL keeps setting records revenue wise, I just don't see them wanting to expand aggressively.

Additionally, parity in the NFL today is a very real thing, so just imagine as pokes said, the talent gap would be so extreme, way worse than today.

Maybe, maybe not. Right now not having a team in LA allows owners in established markets of being able to extort the citizens for new and upgraded facilities on the tax payers dime.

That's the goal for San Diego, but San Diego told the ownership to hit the road.
St. Louis has already proposed plans to Kroenke and he's adamant about building a stadium in L.A. He and his team told the city of St.Louis "Sorry, but we're not interested in your proposals right now."

L.A. is getting at least one team, that much is basically a 99% lock at this point.

[Swake]

Maybe, maybe not. Right now not having a team in LA allows owners in established markets of being able to extort the citizens for new and upgraded facilities on the tax payers dime.

Team(s) are going to move to LA. It's been estimated that a franchise that moves to LA will increase in value by a billion dollars due to being in the LA market with it's 18 million people and high media exposure.

[gopokes88]

I'm right there with you.
I'd be surprised if the NFL expands. They won't add an odd number due to how successful the 32 team format has been, so that means adding something divisible by an even number, so 36 I think would be the next one to avoid awkward division and playoff formatting. Although they could follow what the MLB did and have a 2 team wild card play in game.

Despite the fact that the NFL keeps setting records revenue wise, I just don't see them wanting to expand aggressively.

Additionally, parity in the NFL today is a very real thing, so just imagine as pokes said, the talent gap would be so extreme, way worse than today.



That's the goal for San Diego, but San Diego told the ownership to hit the road.
St. Louis has already proposed plans to Kroenke and he's adamant about building a stadium in L.A. He and his team told the city of St.Louis "Sorry, but we're not interested in your proposals right now."

L.A. is getting at least one team, that much is basically a 99% lock at this point.

There's also a strategic advantage in the NFL staying at 32. Not overpowering college football which serves as the NFL's D league. Unlike the NBA players have to be 3 years out of HS before going to draft. Keeping college football as healthy as possible, keeps the NFL healthy. There's just too many reasons why the NFL is going to stay at 32 rather then expand.

[BigD Misey]

There's also a strategic advantage in the NFL staying at 32. Not overpowering college football which serves as the NFL's D league. Unlike the NBA players have to be 3 years out of HS before going to draft. Keeping college football as healthy as possible, keeps the NFL healthy. There's just too many reasons why the NFL is going to stay at 32 rather then expand.

Although far fetched, and considering all of the opposing momentum on this happening, it must be brought up that Like Florida and Texas, Oklahoma is a football first state. So there would be a significantly higher ratio of the 1.2 million that will choose to spend thier money on NFL tickets vs the ratio in east and west coast markets wher they would be equally drawn to NBA & MLB.

But with the energy sector down, TV market the way it is and the sheer likely hood being nil in the eyes of most, i just dont see an NFL franchise taking a chance on moving to OKC.

[gopokes88]

Although far fetched, and considering all of the opposing momentum on this happening, it must be brought up that Like Florida and Texas, Oklahoma is a football first state. So there would be a significantly higher ratio of the 1.2 million that will choose to spend thier money on NFL tickets vs the ratio in east and west coast markets wher they would be equally more drawn to NBA & MLB.

But with the energy sector down, TV market the way it is and the sheer likely hood being nil in the eyes of most, i just dont see an NFL franchise taking a chance in OKC.

All of those are valid points, but when it comes to the NFL here's what they'll say

"It's not you OKC, it's us."

The NFL just isn't looking to expand.

[hoya]

I think the NFL is a possibility for OKC at some point in the future, but not now. Check back in 20 years and we'll have a much better chance. Here's what we need:

--OKC to increase in population so that the metro area has 1.8 to 2 million people.
--The Thunder survive Kevin Durant's retirement and remain competitive in the NBA.
--The Chesapeake Arena gets a renovation.
--A primarily taxpayer funded MLS/NFL capable stadium gets built. Capable of supporting a soccer team, upgradable to NFL standards with $$$ from ownership group.
--High oil prices and a booming economy at a time when the NFL is either expanding, or a team really wants to relocate.

I don't see it happening in the next 20 years. I do think it could happen after that, though.

[Laramie]

Others.

And it has nothing to do with OKC and everything to with TV partners. They aren't shelling out more money for a product that is 100% saturated already. Its like trying to add more water to soaked sponge. It's pretty much at its limit. The only place the NFL is relocating to is London after LA. JAX will move there.

NFL feels the same about Los Angeles, the market is already saturated...

[bchris02]

While the breakdowns above were mostly excellent, one of the biggest reasons we won't see the NFL here for a long time isn't listed; the Thunder's influential ownership. Right now the NBA enjoys exclusivity in this market from the standpoint of corporate sponsorship AND fan interest.

A second major league franchise would dilute this to the point where one or even both might no longer be financially competitive in their respective leagues. That's the reality of a small market. Right now the Thunder is one of the most profitable teams in the league, and they aim to stay that way.

Considering the fact that a new team would almost certainly require taxpayer support (facilities), corporate support and perhaps even some level of local ownership - and owing to how cozy and unified of purpose the local business community and public sector are - rest assured that anyone looking to move another team here would get a SERIOUSLY cold shoulder.

I completely agree with this.

This is why OKC needs around 2 million in the metro area before it seriously considers going for the NFL. Right now, it would simply dilute the market and hurt both teams. I believe the rule of thumb is cities generally need 1 million people per major league team (baseball even more). Another corporate relocation or two would also help. Once the city has the population and corporate sponsorship to support it, I think OKC will be very marketable.

[gopokes88]

NFL feels the same about Los Angeles, the market is already saturated...

There's a big difference between going from 2 million people to 18 million and adding 2 million. 9 times the difference actually. LA is unique market as well, home to 18 million bandwagon fans.

[Snowman]

NBA doing the exact same thing to Seattle. Kings and Bucks have both gotten new arenas. Sucks for Seattle and LA. However, in LA's case since just about every team now has a new stadium (that'll pay for it) the move is looking more and more likely. I think Raiders are gone for sure. 50/50 whether bolts or rams are next.

Stadiums start getting to need major renovations somewhere around 30 years (granted not to the extent owners request which often include adding new amenities but at least things like pluming, fixtures, heating, seating, screens and other systems will need periodic replacement. In recent decades it has often been easier to just get a different city in the metro area to pay for an entirely new stadium, sometimes a suburb or the core city), there are at least a half dozen in that position now, almost half are getting to the point if they want to have city funds pay for any of that they need to start lobbying soon. If they want to keep current on technology or amenities then they probably need minor upgrades closer to ten to fifteen years. They will always want a credible relocation threat on the horizon.

[Urbanized]

NBA doing the exact same thing to Seattle. Kings and Bucks have both gotten new arenas. Sucks for Seattle and LA. However, in LA's case since just about every team now has a new stadium (that'll pay for it) the move is looking more and more likely. I think Raiders are gone for sure. 50/50 whether bolts or rams are next.

I'm not the typical knee jerk OKC-based Seattle hater who sneers at the city and its NBA situation, simply because we were pitted against them in the relocation, and because they said mean things about us. I actually LIKE Seattle. A lot.

And by coincidence I was actually a Sonics fan before the team moved here, owing to guys like Xavier McDaniel, Shawn Kemp, Gary Payton and even Desmond Mason. I think it stinks that there isn't a team there. Despite what a lot of people in OKC think Seattle had a great tradition and great fan base, deserving of a franchise.

But make no mistake: Seattle made its bed. It's nobody's fault except Seattle that there isn't a team there. They were arrogant, they refused to give even an inch to multiple owners who were in very difficult contractual/revenue conditions, and completely dismissed a move to OKC as a bluff.

At the end of the day, the move was a simple business decision, and in hindsight was a no-brainer even if the team wasn't as competitive as they've been. Being the only game in town is a powerful thing, both from a fan interest and a corporate sponsorship perspective. Playing in a debt-free building with essentially no rent? Also powerful.

So - though I feel bad for actual Sonics FANS - I have no sympathy for the city at large. If they're held up as an example of what NOT to do, so be it. Like it or not, major league sports is a business. As soon as you let emotion drive your business decisions, you lose.

[Laramie]

I'm not the typical knee jerk OKC-based Seattle hater who sneers at the city and its NBA situation, simply because we were pitted against them in the relocation, and because they said mean things about us. I actually LIKE Seattle. A lot.


But make no mistake: Seattle made its bed. It's nobody's fault except Seattle that there isn't a team there. They were arrogant, they refused to give even an inch to multiple owners who were in very difficult contractual/revenue conditions, and completely dismissed a move to OKC as a bluff.

They underestimated the strength of some very aggressive Oklahoma City businessmen. They thought of Oklahoma City as some kind of 'hick town' with gum dropping fans waiting on a tooth-under-pillow reimbursement from the tooth fairy.

My relatives in Seattle are very arrogant (not your typical Seattleites). They were quick to call about the relocation with remarks like, "We can't believe they would leave KeyArena for the Stockyards Coliseum." Fun-ny!

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^
Yeah, they let emotion (pride/arrogance) and bigotry get in the way of thoughtful analysis. That's more understandable when you're talking about the general populace, which tends to be generally uninformed and provincial, but those are inexcusable qualities in public officials.

If they only would have looked a little more closely at how desperate the lease/building/revenue situation was for the Sonics and considered the very real potential for relocation, they would have done every reasonable thing to avoid Schultz's sale to the OKC owner group, and would have at least given Clay the time of day.

I know it's easy to dismiss the Seattle-OKC move as simple boosterism; local guys moving a team to their hometown to take it to the next level. But at the end of the day it was an EXCELLENT business decision, for reasons listed in previous posts. Anyone who bothered to take off their emerald-colored glasses would have understood this and at least TRIED to make things work.

Instead, they gave a series of owners AND the NBA the middle finger and essentially dared them to move. If they have to spend a few more years serving as the league's cautionary tale and relocation bargaining chip, so be it.

[Laramie]

.

New Orleans’ Post-Katrina Identity

New Orleans is alive and thriving. Or so it seems. Nearly a decade has passed since Hurricane Katrina flooded the city and displaced more than 400,000 New Orleanians. Billions of federal dollars have poured in to rebuild the Big Easy, along with thousands of volunteers and immigrant day laborers. Now the city boasts several Forbes top rankings, such as #1 Brainpower City and Fastest Growing City Since the Recession.

NationalJournal

New Orleans which has NFL & NBA franchises owned by Dr. Tom Benson appears to exhibit great support for both franchises.

Profile: New Orleans population: City 384,320 - MSA 1,251,849 - CSA 1,467,880 - State of Louisiana: 4,649,676
Income: New Orleans per capita $28,122 - State of Louisiana per capita $24,800

Major League Sports franchises (2) NFL, NBA - nearest competitive market : Houston, TX- 328 miles

NFL New Orleans Saints: Att/Average: 73,034 (7 home dates) - Stadium capacity 73,000 (100.1%) capacity.
NBA New Orleans Pelicans: Att/Average: 16,936 (16 home dates) - Arena capacity , 17,193 (98.5%) capacity

[Laramie]

Raiders stadium update:

"The Raiders want to have control of their game day revenues, the game experience, and the parking. And, we need to make sure that our tax payers are not left on the hook, that we're making responsible investments with the public dollar, and that we're making good land use decisions that will benefit this city and this region for generations to come," said Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf

Oakland mayor updates Raiders stadium financing proposal | abc7news.com

[Laramie]

Recall the USFL Oklahoma Outlaws and the 1984 Oklahoma Dome proposal in Tulsa?

The proposal calls for the "Oklahoma Dome" and a 20-story hotel to be built on 160 acres in far northeast Tulsa near Tulsa International Airport. The complex would include parking for about 18,000 cars.

"Oklahoma Dome' Decision Due in 30 Days | News OK

NFL in Los Angeles; the fate of the Rams, Chargers & Raiders? All the Reasons the Chargers, Raiders, and Rams Might NOT Move to Los Angeles - Stadium Wars - Curbed LA

[TU 'cane]

Recall the USFL Oklahoma Outlaws and the 1984 Oklahoma Dome proposal in Tulsa?

"Oklahoma Dome' Decision Due in 30 Days | News OK

NFL in Los Angeles; the fate of the Rams, Chargers & Raiders? All the Reasons the Chargers, Raiders, and Rams Might NOT Move to Los Angeles - Stadium Wars - Curbed LA

Wow! I never heard of that proposal.
The only benefit I could see of it in 2015 (assuming there were no pro sports teams here), is that we would probably be hosting some of these bowl games and we'd probably have a huge entertainment area around the immediate vicinity.

[betts]

Raiders stadium update:



Oakland mayor updates Raiders stadium financing proposal | abc7news.com

Since the Warriors are leaving Oakland for SF, and Oakland appears to be on the rise due to SF housing costs, I'd be trying hard to keep the Raiders, were I Oakland.