Streetcar

[Teo9969]

I'm not crying over spilled milk. Obviously, I'm supporting the project going forward. But that graphic does a good job of exposing the weakness of a figure eight, hard to read "spine" route. I'm a very regular transit user and trying to figure out where to get on downtown to get on one of the colored lines is going to take some pretty serious thought. Same with crossing the city like you might normally with lines that go "through" the downtown core. It's a little strange to see rail routes that strictly originate downtown that severely. Most places, transfers are more linear and you can stay on the train to go right through any central core.

We don't have a lot of examples here in the US so perhaps this is just a reflection of not enough people actually knowing what interurban rail networks look like.

I hope really knowledgeable people are tasked with mitigating this built-in challenge.

I think it is important to have at least some linear route that transects the urban core. Maybe connect the purple N/S line all the way down to the blue line via Hudson? Somehow, you've got to be able to go 3 miles without needing to use 3 routes.

I'm not looking to pick a fight with anyone but does anyone else think that is incredibly unreadable? Meh on, circulators. I think the solution will be as you add lines, you've going to want to blur out the circulator. For example, the two green lines (light and dark) actually becomes one line. The purple and light blue becomes one. Red and orange, another. And so on. And really just minimize that circulator. I think it will confuse people once you've actually added all of those other lines. Of course, if you actually do install all those other routes, you'll probably have the money and political willpower to do whatever you need to do. Additionally, the city will be a very different place and the routes can be simplified. Density allows for simplicity in transit so here's to looking forward to the future!

Cool map though. It is exciting to think about it happening.

I'm with you on this, Sid.

The circulator can't be the centerpiece forever.

We should be striving for a system that lets you get anywhere in 1 or 2 transfers. Anything more than 2 transfers in one system (street-car, bus, rail) probably needs to be reworked.

ON EDIT: It's actually really easy to make E/W lines flow smoothly in a vertical figure-8 circulator...N/S lines not so much.

[soonerguru]

Ask Austin if you think circulators are "meh." They built commuter rail first costing considerable political capital and now they realize they should have done a circulator first. The system is going to be successful.

[Teo9969]

Another thing that seems to be lacking in both our bus system and these proposed routes is overlapping routes that jut off in different directions over time OR multiple connection points. It seems like there are too many individual routes to actually accomplish MASS transit. If you have routes that have multiple lines, you're serving a concentration of people to a variety of more specific areas. The DART does a great job of that particular aspect of Mass Transit. Here are 3 system maps of very user-friend public transit systems:

[betts]

I think the important thing is to realize what we want ultimately is an integrated, multi-modal system. No one piece solves all problems. The streetcar can function alone and I think will function well, but its value escalates if it complements commuter rail and an integrated bus system. We can congratulate ourselves briefly for coming up with a proposal that fulfills MAPS 3 promises and expectations, but in no way should we stop pushing for further transit improvements and expansion.

[CuatrodeMayo]

A point of clarification: I afraid my graphic might not be as clear as intended. My original graphic probably communicated the loop track a bit clearer . The gray "circulator" is not a separate line. It is a section of track that each colored line will circulate on in the course of their routes before veering off to each of their respective branch routes. A north-south or east-west through movement (or any through movement) would entail one transfer at either the hub or any other stop along the circulator track. This configuration is extremely similar to that of the “Loop” in Chicago. This makes much more sense when dealing with a basic circular loop like I originally proposed. When you try to fit it to the approved framework, it gets much more convoluted. There have been some good suggestions made so far that I will incorporate in the next version. Thanks.

If anybody wants it, I will make available the Adobe Illustrator file that I used to create these layouts.

[Teo9969]

I think the important thing is to realize what we want ultimately is an integrated, multi-modal system. No one piece solves all problems. The streetcar can function alone and I think will function well, but its value escalates if it complements commuter rail and an integrated bus system. We can congratulate ourselves briefly for coming up with a proposal that fulfills MAPS 3 promises and expectations, but in no way should we stop pushing for further transit improvements and expansion.

I don't disagree with this really, but a multi-modal system doesn't solve certain problems if the systems pertaining to individual modes are flawed, and one flawed part of the system can also cause peril to the other parts, inasmuch as if the tram were to not be a successful component of our transit system, nobody is going to rail in from Edmond only to be stuck navigating an inefficient downtown network.

I'm not saying that's what we have or even that what Andrew suggested is somehow horribly flawed. However, establishing the most efficient system leads to increased ridership, and I'm thinking there are better ways to do that than maintain the circulator in the long run.

[warreng88]

So, if we were to get a fully integrated mass transit system, what would be the limits to where buses would go? What is considered Oklahoma City city limits? Memorial on the north, 89th on the south, Council on the west and Midwest Boulevard on the east? I would think to make it as effecient as possible, there would be a bus stop only every half mile. So, if we are talking about the square mile bound by NW 10, NW 23, May and Penn, there would be stop at the corners of 10 and May, 16th and May, 23rd and May, 23rd and Villa, 16th and Villa, 10th and Villa, 10th and Penn, 16th and Penn and 23rd and Penn. That would be nine stops for a square mile but, a lot of those would overlap with other square miles so about six stops per square mile and less when you get into the less populated areas like east of I-35 and between 44, Kilpatrick turnpike, Broadway Extension and 44/35. This would make it where anyone wanting to ride the bus would not have to walk further than 1/2 mile to get to the nearest bus stop. Once the system got up and going and people understood it, extra stops and routes could be added as needed. A dedicated bus line from the airport to downtown is being considered and I think one going down NW Expressway and back would be a good idea as well. So, with all that, you would not want to take a bus from NW OKC all the way DT for a transfer when you need to get back to NW OKC for work. Would several other bus transfer stations be built so there wouldn't be as much of a time lapse?

I would think the streetcar would only really serve the DT/MT/OUHSC/Capital/JFK/Plaza/OCU/Capitol Hill area and everything else would be served by bus or some sort of rail.

Of course, ideally, there would be commuter rail (not to be confused with light rail) traveling north to Edmond, south to Norman, East to MWC and west to Yukon.

Thoughts?

[betts]

Commuter rail is in our future, I believe, and perhaps not so far off as I used to think. There seems to be real interest in creation of an RTD/RTA, and that is the first step. Ultimately we will need a dedicated funding source, similar to that for the zoo.

[Teo9969]

So, if we were to get a fully integrated mass transit system, what would be the limits to where buses would go? What is considered Oklahoma City city limits? Memorial on the north, 89th on the south, Council on the west and Midwest Boulevard on the east? I would think to make it as effecient as possible, there would be a bus stop only every half mile. So, if we are talking about the square mile bound by NW 10, NW 23, May and Penn, there would be stop at the corners of 10 and May, 16th and May, 23rd and May, 23rd and Villa, 16th and Villa, 10th and Villa, 10th and Penn, 16th and Penn and 23rd and Penn. That would be nine stops for a square mile but, a lot of those would overlap with other square miles so about six stops per square mile and less when you get into the less populated areas like east of I-35 and between 44, Kilpatrick turnpike, Broadway Extension and 44/35. This would make it where anyone wanting to ride the bus would not have to walk further than 1/2 mile to get to the nearest bus stop. Once the system got up and going and people understood it, extra stops and routes could be added as needed. A dedicated bus line from the airport to downtown is being considered and I think one going down NW Expressway and back would be a good idea as well. So, with all that, you would not want to take a bus from NW OKC all the way DT for a transfer when you need to get back to NW OKC for work. Would several other bus transfer stations be built so there wouldn't be as much of a time lapse?

I would think the streetcar would only really serve the DT/MT/OUHSC/Capital/JFK/Plaza/OCU/Capitol Hill area and everything else would be served by bus or some sort of rail.

Of course, ideally, there would be commuter rail (not to be confused with light rail) traveling north to Edmond, south to Norman, East to MWC and west to Yukon.

Thoughts?

Rail/"Metro/Subway/U-Bahn": Edmond to Norman (2025), Yukon to MWC (2035) both going through Santa Fe station.

Streetcar/Tram: Area roughly bordered by Penn/N23rd/Eastern/S25th (built through 2035)

Busses: Airport (yesterday), and extending from the edge of the original circulator outward, and from the end of outbound tram routes. Ideally most busses wouldn't pass by the multi-modal hub. Certain express routes, yes. But as soon as OKC leaves behind the hub-and-spoke bus system, the better. Bus routes are easily modified and will be changed a lot over the next 20 years as OKC really begins to change it's mass transit system.

[warreng88]

Commuter rail is in our future, I believe, and perhaps not so far off as I used to think. There seems to be real interest in creation of an RTD/RTA, and that is the first step. Ultimately we will need a dedicated funding source, similar to that for the zoo.

I agree. I think people were thinking of light rail and how expensive that would be, but with commuter rail using existing rails and really only having to update and get the ROW, the infrastructure is a lot closer than originally thought. Of course, the stops, park and ride areas, trains themselves, etc still need to be taken care of, but the part that would take the longest (laying the track) is not necessary or seems to be a lot less intrusive than what was originally thought.

[Lazio85]

It was fun in New Orleans this past weekend for the Annual Technical Conference and Exhibition put on by the Society of Petroleum Engineers.
Old streetcar system with overhead wires were to capacity every time of the day Saturday and Sunday.


New Orleans Streetcar by lazio85, on Flickr

Day passes for all their modes of transit seem to be a big hit in this city, $3/day!
http://www.norta.com/_meta/files/Get...-SystemMap.pdf

[BoulderSooner]

Rail/"Metro/Subway/U-Bahn": Edmond to Norman (2025), Yukon to MWC (2035) both going through Santa Fe station.

Streetcar/Tram: Area roughly bordered by Penn/N23rd/Eastern/S25th (built through 2035)

Busses: Airport (yesterday), and extending from the edge of the original circulator outward, and from the end of outbound tram routes. Ideally most busses wouldn't pass by the multi-modal hub. Certain express routes, yes. But as soon as OKC leaves behind the hub-and-spoke bus system, the better. Bus routes are easily modified and will be changed a lot over the next 20 years as OKC really begins to change it's mass transit system.

we very well could see commuter rail from edmond to norman MWC to OKC and NE OKC to the Airport all through the Sante Fe station in the by 2025 ..

if the street car is a success ... you could see it triple in size (or more) by 2035

[OKVision4U]

So, if we were to get a fully integrated mass transit system, what would be the limits to where buses would go? What is considered Oklahoma City city limits? Memorial on the north, 89th on the south, Council on the west and Midwest Boulevard on the east? I would think to make it as effecient as possible, there would be a bus stop only every half mile. So, if we are talking about the square mile bound by NW 10, NW 23, May and Penn, there would be stop at the corners of 10 and May, 16th and May, 23rd and May, 23rd and Villa, 16th and Villa, 10th and Villa, 10th and Penn, 16th and Penn and 23rd and Penn. That would be nine stops for a square mile but, a lot of those would overlap with other square miles so about six stops per square mile and less when you get into the less populated areas like east of I-35 and between 44, Kilpatrick turnpike, Broadway Extension and 44/35. This would make it where anyone wanting to ride the bus would not have to walk further than 1/2 mile to get to the nearest bus stop. Once the system got up and going and people understood it, extra stops and routes could be added as needed. A dedicated bus line from the airport to downtown is being considered and I think one going down NW Expressway and back would be a good idea as well. So, with all that, you would not want to take a bus from NW OKC all the way DT for a transfer when you need to get back to NW OKC for work. Would several other bus transfer stations be built so there wouldn't be as much of a time lapse?

I would think the streetcar would only really serve the DT/MT/OUHSC/Capital/JFK/Plaza/OCU/Capitol Hill area and everything else would be served by bus or some sort of rail.

Of course, ideally, there would be commuter rail (not to be confused with light rail) traveling north to Edmond, south to Norman, East to MWC and west to Yukon.

Thoughts?

The rail is the next "logical" step in our OKC Metro Transit needs.

[Teo9969]

we very well could see commuter rail from edmond to norman MWC to OKC and NE OKC to the Airport all through the Sante Fe station in the by 2025 ..

if the street car is a success ... you could see it triple in size (or more) by 2035

If we get all that commuter rail accomplished by 2025, I'll be impressed. Certainly I think Edmond to Norman is a lock in the next 15 years. But the Airport/NE line in particular seems like it's going to be more difficult to accomplish in just 11 years.

The streetcar should be fine and successful, but the development of the system past this initial starter is going to be crucial to justifying its expansion.

[warreng88]

Obviously a lot of these routes can use existing lines which would speed up the process, but a lot of downtown to the airport (if done by rail) would have to be laid. There would have to be two miles of new line laid from Meridian and Airport Road to the airport and about two miles from where the rail stops at I-40 and Exchange to the Santa Fe train station. I would think a dedicated bus line from the airport to the Meridian hotel corridor and then to downtown would be a lot easier and much, much less expensive.

[BoulderSooner]

If we get all that commuter rail accomplished by 2025, I'll be impressed. Certainly I think Edmond to Norman is a lock in the next 15 years. But the Airport/NE line in particular seems like it's going to be more difficult to accomplish in just 11 years.

The streetcar should be fine and successful, but the development of the system past this initial starter is going to be crucial to justifying its expansion.

the airport to the NE is the "easiest" line to get done .. OKC owns large portions of the track ... in is all in OKC (making it possible to be included in an OKC only vote Maps4?) and the NE line study has already been accomplished ..

the norman/edmond to okc line will take a RTA and a regional transit tax now if that tax passes (allowing the RTA to issue bonds) .. around 2016-2019 both that line and the MWC line could be open not long after .. and expanded bus service ..could happen region wide directly after

[Teo9969]

Where is the NE line terminating according to the study?

[Spartan]

Zoo?

[Urban Pioneer]

Where is the NE line terminating according to the study?

The study itself terminates at NE 50th street right now. So it encompasses Santa Fe Station all the way to NE 50th. In fact, I have been working on this project this morning.

Councilman Pettis and several transit advocates are meeting with various "stakeholders" ie Zoo, Remington Park, Softball complex, OmniePlex, and the City/County Heath Department to determine what best serves those facilities. Obviously, along the way there are potential stops at 4th, 10th, 16th, 23rd, 36th, Oklahoma Railway Museum, and 50th depending on what type of rail mode is used (Commuter Type Rial Cars versus Rapid Streetcar).

There is a hotel in the works at Remington Park. It is really those entities that need to get with Councilman Pettis to determine where to go from the NE 50th street termination.

[Urban Pioneer]

BTW, I have been thinking about "MAPS 4" and what that might entail if a RTA isn't pursued in the near future. I would love to post about what I think is politically viable, but can't stand the thought of that +#%@*&$^ mayoral candidate running with my ideas. So I am going to keep it to myself. I do think that there are some easy major enhancements with rail, BRT, and enhanced bus that could work in concert with the investment that we are building in MAPS 3. If we can resolve the ongoing O&M issue, there are many opportunities that would have broad political support IMHOP.

Need to have that figured out by 2016.

[OKVision4U]

Obviously a lot of these routes can use existing lines which would speed up the process, but a lot of downtown to the airport (if done by rail) would have to be laid. There would have to be two miles of new line laid from Meridian and Airport Road to the airport and about two miles from where the rail stops at I-40 and Exchange to the Santa Fe train station. I would think a dedicated bus line from the airport to the Meridian hotel corridor and then to downtown would be a lot easier and much, much less expensive.

Why do this twice?

By using heavy rail ( AmTrak ) we have to do this for the areas that do not have a line, plus the others. If we Light Rail, like Orlando, then we can have a line from the Airpot to Meridian. From there, there can be the E - W line from Yukon to MWC ...?

There is zero need for an Amtrak service for a regional commuter rail. Let's just do this once, the right way like Orlando.

[warreng88]

Why do this twice?

By using heavy rail ( AmTrak ) we have to do this for the areas that do not have a line, plus the others. If we Light Rail, like Orlando, then we can have a line from the Airpot to Meridian. From there, there can be the E - W line from Yukon to MWC ...?

There is zero need for an Amtrak service for a regional commuter rail. Let's just do this once, the right way like Orlando.

Simply put, it is much, much more expensive and basically achieves the same goal, getting people from the airport to the Meridian corridor or Downtown where the highest density of hotels are in the metro. Norfolk, VA is building Tide Light Rail and it is going to cost them $43 million/mile. If we were to do light rail from the airport to the Santa Fe trail station by just following the highway, it would bhe about 10 miles and would run $430 million dollars by Norfolk's numbers not to mention operating costs. Why would you do that when for a fraction of that you could do a dedicated bus to and from and when it becomes more popular, build a dedicated bus lane, creating BRT?

[OKVision4U]

Simply put, it is much, much more expensive and basically achieves the same goal, getting people from the airport to the Meridian corridor or Downtown where the highest density of hotels are in the metro. Norfolk, VA is building Tide Light Rail and it is going to cost them $43 million/mile. If we were to do light rail from the airport to the Santa Fe trail station by just following the highway, it would bhe about 10 miles and would run $430 million dollars by Norfolk's numbers not to mention operating costs. Why would you do that when for a fraction of that you could do a dedicated bus to and from and when it becomes more popular, build a dedicated bus lane, creating BRT?

Let's use Orlando's Budget numbers of $ 20 Mil p / mile. This would run it to $200 Mil. This is very do-able. BTW, the I-44 / I-235 Interchange is estimated @ $200 million as well. So, we spend that kind of money in the existing ODOT budget. ..just saying we spend big money yearly.

Now, let me run this from the consumer POV. There is a point, when a consumer sees / realizes the Value they are wanting... ( Bus system is not gonna get the masses to move in that direction. They don't now.) The consumer wants a Clean , Pleasant experience, that has few stops, and gets them to a High Value destination... ie Airport / Convention Center / Entainment Venue / University / OUHSC , ex.

Example: Dont make a movie that has a cost $50 Mil ( just trying to keep cost down ) and only brings in $30 Mil in Revenue. Now, if you make a movie that has a cost of $100 Mil ( The right script, the right Leading actor / actress , the right director ) and it "has the buzz" prior to opening day, then you wil hit the $150 - $200 million Blockbuster. There is a point in which a product must have the "buzz / excitment / solution / Wow Factor" that all consumers desire. That is why you don't go just "half-way" on small - medium size investments. Let's not just get a new shiny bus, or a heavy ( old technology) Amtrak train, but let's get the NEW thing and then that will ensure that masses actually use it.

[kevinpate]

So, if we were to get a fully integrated mass transit system, what would be the limits to where buses would go? What is considered Oklahoma City city limits? Memorial on the north, 89th on the south, Council on the west and Midwest Boulevard on the east?...

I don't know where bus or rail service ought to end, but OKC extends well beyond some of the boundaries you have used. SE/SW 89th for example marks the southern line of OK County, but east and west of Moore OKC extends several miles (six? more?) to the south. I'm more acquainted with the southern aspects of the city myself, but the political ward map I remember seeing around the last MAPs vote showed the city stretching out in the other directions as well.

[warreng88]

Let's use Orlando's Budget numbers of $ 20 Mil p / mile. This would run it to $200 Mil. This is very do-able. BTW, the I-44 / I-235 Interchange is estimated @ $200 million as well. So, we spend that kind of money in the existing ODOT budget. ..just saying we spend big money yearly.

I don't think it's really fair to compare OKC to Orlando. If you were talking about Louisville, Portland or Milwaukee, that would be a little more relevant, but when you are talking about a metro that is one and a half times the size of OKC, that is not a fair assessment. And more than 50 million people from all over the world visit Orlando every year. I am not sure how many visit OKC every year, but I would be willing to bet my entire paycheck that it is not near that amount. Also, SunRail (what you are referring to) is commuter rail, not light rail, there is a difference. Finally, the $200 million on the I-44/I-235 interchange is being spent over about eight years, not one because ODOT does not spend the money until it has it.