Lindsey Street

[venture]

You can't fix stupid by staying poor and spending trillions on trains that go to places that only a trickle of people would use and are located in places that still need highways that operate at far below capacity.

The Tea party is largely about fiscal responsibility. Clearly you are not fiscally responsible when you push for very expensive slow trains that go to nowhere and on borrowed money. It would be very reasonable for many Tea party members to find your thoughts rather goofy.

SMH. You realize "stupid" is in reference to thinking that it is foolish to evolve and update to the better way of doing things and instead rely on old tried and predictable methods? The thinking Lindsey should be just another cookie cutter concrete boulevard falls into that line of foolish thinking.

Now as far as your comments specifically. Not calling Kerry fiscally responsible is just laughable. Those comments don't earn any credibility by making such negative and incorrect accusations. If highways are at such low capacity, why do we continue to build them? Shouldn't we just stop expanding them so other transit solutions can be introduced instead of continuing to pour money into a system that can't be sustained?

We've been down this road before where it becomes very abrasive towards those with more forward thinking ideas and are contributing high quality to the discussion. I understand it can make someone very overwhelmed with the rate of change many areas are seeing and the level of new ideas coming about, but there is no reason to take it out on others for feeling that way. Many people here will be willing to educate anyone who WANTS to understand what is being proposed (not just with Lindsey but everywhere) - all without judging.

[ou48A]

Little extra good? Reducing accidents by what...60-90%? Keeping speed maintained throughout the entire stretch to avoid continuous stop and go backups during rush hour. Assist a section of town to get revilatilized by being more walkable and contribute to better population density?

If anything the biggest snag to provide a better Lindsey Street was the possible legalities of changing the design. A small minority started to make some noise about it and I'm sure if their mega-wide asphalt dreamland wasn't realized, they would have sued the city and wasted more money.

What's going to be built on Lindsey will be far safer and adds far more capacity than what currently exist.
The additional resources it would have taken to build what a small number of people wanted along Lindsey can be used to relive other congested areas of Norman..

So that it would limmit the impact to resdents the city would be wise to start buying up property as it naturally becomes available along the north side of Lindsey between Berry and Elm. The City should zone this same area so that no new major construction could take place.

[ou48A]

SMH. You realize "stupid" is in reference to thinking that it is foolish to evolve and update to the better way of doing things and instead rely on old tried and predictable methods? The thinking Lindsey should be just another cookie cutter concrete boulevard falls into that line of foolish thinking.

Now as far as your comments specifically. Not calling Kerry fiscally responsible is just laughable. Those comments don't earn any credibility by making such negative and incorrect accusations. If highways are at such low capacity, why do we continue to build them? Shouldn't we just stop expanding them so other transit solutions can be introduced instead of continuing to pour money into a system that can't be sustained?

We've been down this road before where it becomes very abrasive towards those with more forward thinking ideas and are contributing high quality to the discussion. I understand it can make someone very overwhelmed with the rate of change many areas are seeing and the level of new ideas coming about, but there is no reason to take it out on others for feeling that way. Many people here will be willing to educate anyone who WANTS to understand what is being proposed (not just with Lindsey but everywhere) - all without judging.

We build highways in many places that operate under capacity because of the economic net gain they create and trains are no substitute.
Do you have any idea of the billions of dollars worth of agriculture and energy products that travel on remote 2 lane roads in low populated areas... Those roads easily pay of them self’s though increased economic gain. Energy and agriculture are the back bone of our states economy. Without doubt and they would be crippled with out good roads.

I get the feeling that few if any on here have spent any real time living in economic prosperous rural areas well away from major city’s and have little to no perspective.

[Plutonic Panda]

Thank the LORD this isn't Texas...because that would be awful. There are so many 6 lane mega-roads throughout the DFW area that are so under-used and a waste of space.

I love the roads in Dallas. I really wish the majority of roads here were six lanes, it would make traffic so much better flowing. They understand the need and desire that people have for those roads.

[ou48A]

I love the roads in Dallas. I really wish the majority of roads here were six lanes, it would make traffic so much better flowing. They understand the need and desire that people have for those roads.

It's not just the Dallas area in Texas where the streets and highways are built to better standards and for higher capacity....
Texas spends more money up front and as a result their highways usually last longer and do not require as much rehabilitation.
Except in high growth areas most places are not very congested.

Plutomic Panda have you ever spent much time driving in far west Texas where its 30 miles between houses? They have some of the nicest roads you will ever drive on.

When it comes to streets and highways city’s like Lubbock, Midland / Odessa really do make many of our area OKC streets and highways look like the third world.
Its this way because Texas has done the things necessary to bring prosperity and besides Texans expect it... We should demand it also!

[BG918]

This new plan still includes new sidewalks, landscaping and street lights. That is important since this is a gateway into Norman. Will the sidewalks be extended east of Berry to connect to the existing ones at Chautauqua?

[Spartan]

You once told me that you didn't root for OU or OSU and didn't care but only after giving me much grief.... But a few days ago you finally admitted that your a poke. There isn't a bigger hypocrite on this entire board than you Spartan...Spending millions extra on Lindsey street when it would do little extra good is moronic. We can easily put those millions in resources to better use someplace else.

I was rooting pretty hard for OU last weekend, although I really don't follow football religiously. I have lived in Norman and went to OU for one semester, if it matters, although the hypocrite insult was random.

Norman is a great city, but the lack of a large-scale walkable core beyond campus is holding it back. You should see the development strides that Stillwater is making lately, if you're obsessed with college football.

[ou48A]

This new plan still includes new sidewalks, landscaping and street lights. That is important since this is a gateway into Norman. Will the sidewalks be extended east of Berry to connect to the existing ones at Chautauqua?

No... Not anytime soon... Sidewalks are needed in the area... but they shouldn’t be built until new right- of- way is secured... because for every walker there will be hundreds of people in vehicles moving along on a slow moving conjested road too much of the time.

[ou48A]

Norman won't even rebuild its old sidewalks that have been broken down for decades near campus.

I would like to hear a plan for that..? The sidewalk on the north side of Boyd east of Campus Corner to the tracks are in very bad shape.
If we want “walk-ability” ( I'm all for that in places where large numbers of people actually walk) we should fix the sidewalks we already have first before we start adding news ones.

[venture]

What's going to be built on Lindsey will be far safer and adds far more capacity than what currently exist.
The additional resources it would have taken to build what a small number of people wanted along Lindsey can be used to relive other congested areas of Norman..

So that it would limmit the impact to resdents the city would be wise to start buying up property as it naturally becomes available along the north side of Lindsey between Berry and Elm. The City should zone this same area so that no new major construction could take place.

Wow so now we are back to the "north of Lindsey" thing again? Sigh. At this point I don't know if I should feel sad none of the evidence provided has sunk in or just fluff this off as a troll post.

[venture]

We build highways in many places that operate under capacity because of the economic net gain they create and trains are no substitute.
Do you have any idea of the billions of dollars worth of agriculture and energy products that travel on remote 2 lane roads in low populated areas... Those roads easily pay of them self’s though increased economic gain. Energy and agriculture are the back bone of our states economy. Without doubt and they would be crippled with out good roads.

I get the feeling that few if any on here have spent any real time living in economic prosperous rural areas well away from major city’s and have little to no perspective.

Perhaps you can move back out there and report back to us. While you are there, we can finally move this city forward. Oh, don't forget your shadow (PluPan) who apparently has a thing for you now. LOL

[venture]

This new plan still includes new sidewalks, landscaping and street lights. That is important since this is a gateway into Norman. Will the sidewalks be extended east of Berry to connect to the existing ones at Chautauqua?

East of Berry isn't in the works yet. Some discussion on what should be done, but obviously the neighborhood is going to fight any widening that some random suburbanites want. OU of course is not going to approve of any widening through campus.

[Spartan]

Norman won't even rebuild its old sidewalks that have been broken down for decades near campus.

I would like to hear a plan for that..? The sidewalk on the north side of Boyd east of Campus Corner to the tracks are in very bad shape.
If we want “walk-ability” ( I'm all for that in places where large numbers of people actually walk) we should fix the sidewalks we already have first before we start adding news ones.

Good point

[Plutonic Panda]

It's not just the Dallas area in Texas where the streets and highways are built to better standards and for higher capacity....
Texas spends more money up front and as a result their highways usually last longer and do not require as much rehabilitation.
Except in high growth areas most places are not very congested.

Plutomic Panda have you ever spent much time driving in far west Texas where its 30 miles between houses? They have some of the nicest roads you will ever drive on.

When it comes to streets and highways city’s like Lubbock, Midland / Odessa really do make many of our area OKC streets and highways look like the third world.
Its this way because Texas has done the things necessary to bring prosperity and besides Texans expect it... We should demand it also!

Great post and no, I have not driven in west Texas at all. I bet it is great, the majority of Texas is! I'm sure as OKC takes in more tax revenue and a change of leadership in ODOT, we will see better roads and plans for roads designed with future capacity needs in mind(6 lane roads).

[Plutonic Panda]

Perhaps you can move back out there and report back to us. While you are there, we can finally move this city forward. Oh, don't forget your shadow (PluPan) who apparently has a thing for you now. LOL

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Texas is extremely prosperous and racking in huge number as far as economic growth. For the life of me, why wouldn't Norman and all of Oklahoma for that matter, want to follow in the footsteps to take the necessary measures in order to keep ahead of growth and create great roads for years to come. There is no reason to build roads larger than 6 lanes, but you make every artery 6 lanes and that will solve the majority of traffic issues. Traffic in Dallas is amazing for a city of it's size. Traffic gets bad during rush hour, but nearly every time I visit now, traffic flows like it does here almost, again, with the exception of rush hour and other special events and construction zones.

Driving through Dallas is a breeze and with all the lane roads, you can get to where you want and in a hurry. There are tons of quality developments that OKC would kill for along these roads. The fact that 6 lane roads are a detriment to ped activity and waste of space is BS.

Now, if we were taking about the core of Norman, than yes, I understand the opposition against 6 lane roads. Hell, I think Edmond should narrow Broadway to 1 lane in each direction and have a streetcar with bike lanes and super sidewalks. I also think a good majority of the roads in Edmond should be 6 lanes, 2nd, Danforth, Bryant, Memorial, Kelly would be a good start. Covell will need it 10-20 years down the road, but that ok. In suburbia, it is the best way to go, and it can bring great prosperity, just look at Austin, Dallas, even Los Angeles has plenty of 6 lane roads. I don't know why you seem to be so against 6 lane roads.

I don't know Norman that well, so I am trying to withhold most of my "opinions", but I really don't see the big deal on how this will be a failure for the city. As far as "shadowing" ou48a, I don't know your logic behind that, I just agree with most of what he says, is that a crime?

[Geographer]

I literally can't handle this forum anymore...too much misinformation for me.

[Geographer]

Driving through Dallas is a breeze and with all the lane roads, you can get to where you want and in a hurry. There are tons of quality developments that OKC would kill for along these roads. The fact that 6 lane roads are a detriment to ped activity and waste of space is BS.

LOL. I am laughing so hard that I am crying right now. It's so sad that people actually think these kinds of things...misinformation has run amok!

[venture]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Texas is extremely prosperous and racking in huge number as far as economic growth. For the life of me, why wouldn't Norman and all of Oklahoma for that matter, want to follow in the footsteps to take the necessary measures in order to keep ahead of growth and create great roads for years to come.

No one is saying they don't want Norman, or Oklahoma overall, to grow and prosper. However there are proper ways to help facilitate that growth and there are also important planning steps to that need to be covered to ensure it isn't growing into the wrong model. Norman already covers 177 sq miles. That is insanely large for a city its size. A lot of that is thanks to having Lake Thunderbird in the city's limits. However, we need to have proper growth planned and designate what areas are going to follow what model.

There is no reason to build roads larger than 6 lanes, but you make every artery 6 lanes and that will solve the majority of traffic issues. Traffic in Dallas is amazing for a city of it's size. Traffic gets bad during rush hour, but nearly every time I visit now, traffic flows like it does here almost, again, with the exception of rush hour and other special events and construction zones.

It depends on where the artery is and how the city is setup. I personally can't see Norman's main East/West arteries going to a street that wide simply based on the large number of residential houses that are on most of those streets. Main Street west of Downtown is a bit of an exception since there aren't nearly as many curb cuts are there are on Robinson, Lindsey, etc.

Driving through Dallas is a breeze and with all the lane roads, you can get to where you want and in a hurry. There are tons of quality developments that OKC would kill for along these roads. The fact that 6 lane roads are a detriment to ped activity and waste of space is BS.

Actually it is not and that has been referenced many many times in this thread and others. Let's also remember, OKC is not Dallas...and Norman is not OKC. So your continued comparisons need to start being tempered because you aren't using apples to apples here. This comment also shows the lack of understanding of high density and ped activity development. The point is to keep things walkable and close by. Trying to cross a 6+ lane road is not conducive to such development. Look at major downtown areas that have great walkability. There are very free 6 lane roads for people to fight across. Downtown Chicago has a couple, but we are also talking about Michigan Avenue, Lakeshore, etc which are more exceptions than the rule.

However we need to start looking at realistic comparisons. Ann Arbor is a strong academic community of 116,000 people - almost exactly the same of Norman's 115k. The two cities are pretty similar in most aspects...

Ann Arbor, Michigan (MI) profile: population, maps, real estate, averages, homes, statistics, relocation, travel, jobs, hospitals, schools, crime, moving, houses, news

Norman, Oklahoma (OK) profile: population, maps, real estate, averages, homes, statistics, relocation, travel, jobs, hospitals, schools, crime, moving, houses, news


The most notable one? Ann Arbor has almost 4300 per sq mile. Norman is just over 650 people. Ann Arbor is able to move many more people through their city without resorting to mega concrete barriers cutting through their city.

Now, if we were taking about the core of Norman, than yes, I understand the opposition against 6 lane roads. Hell, I think Edmond should narrow Broadway to 1 lane in each direction and have a streetcar with bike lanes and super sidewalks. I also think a good majority of the roads in Edmond should be 6 lanes, 2nd, Danforth, Bryant, Memorial, Kelly would be a good start. Covell will need it 10-20 years down the road, but that ok. In suburbia, it is the best way to go, and it can bring great prosperity, just look at Austin, Dallas, even Los Angeles has plenty of 6 lane roads. I don't know why you seem to be so against 6 lane roads.

We are talking about the core of Norman. How have you not got that by now? Do you even know where Lindsey is? The main urban core of Norman is going to be bordered by I-35 on the west, 12th on the East, Robinson on the North, and Imhoff on the south. Lindsey cuts right through it. This was a chance to redevelop a primary gateway into the core of Norman that is currently lined with apartments and strip malls. If they would have done the smart thing, they could have created a district of improved store fronts, high density living developments, and an area that would see an overall increase in property values. No the city can't force development, but there is a reason why the business association representing businesses along Lindsey wanting a better solution than the 4-lane cookie cutter they are apparently going to get.

I don't know Norman that well, so I am trying to withhold most of my "opinions", but I really don't see the big deal on how this will be a failure for the city. As far as "shadowing" ou48a, I don't know your logic behind that, I just agree with most of what he says, is that a crime?

I really really wish you would take some time and visit Norman and get to know the area. Then you will see where many people are coming from. My logic behind the shadowing comment. Every comment he makes, it is almost a guaranteed like from you. So appearances and actions speak volumes. As many people have said here, plenty are much more educated in this realm of discussion than myself or OU48, Norman had a great opportunity to make this an amazing gateway to the city and change the path from being just another suburb. They'e also provided studies and facts on top of facts proving their point, where the opposition hasn't done a single thing except relay hearsay and their own personal bias. Going through the thread when the discussion of the roundabout/walkable solution came about we saw the reasons to oppose it change week to week. As soon as one thing got shot down with facts, another came up.

I'm not here to say "NO Don't like this person"...I'm saying pay more attention to what you are liking. The "facts" the opposition provided were never substantiated with proof and always had cracks that were exposed.

[dankrutka]

Uh, driving in Dallas is an absolute nightmare. This must be a joke.

[ou48A]

Uh, driving in Dallas is an absolute nightmare. This must be a joke.

It depends on where you are? Part's are bad but the streets not near downtown out in the suburbs are normally better and often much better.

The DFW area has or will spend billions updating their interstate express system in a fairly short amount of time..... They are fixing many of their problems in timely ways.
In the mean time we feel lucky to have a nice new I-40 and a 35 year+ I-35 3 lane in each direction rebuild project.
We need to figure out a way to speed up our projects.

[ou48A]

Texas is in the process of adding 3 lanes to hundreds of miles of their rural interstates between major city.
Their rural interstate speed limit has been raised to 75 MPH but there are 85 MPH speed limits in Texas.
All this saves time.... Time is money.
It helps make them more prosperous and a more desirable place for corporate relocation’s and even more prosperity.

[heyerdahl]

Just FYI Texas road lovers, Texas DOT is collapsing under the weight of their oversized road network. Highways and wide roads generate low-density development that doesn't have enough taxable value per acre to support the infrastructure.


Texas begins replacing paved roads with gravel due to lack of funding
Texas begins replacing paved roads with gravel due to lack of funding | The Raw Story

Texas may shift costly upkeep of urban state highways to Dallas, other cities
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/polit...nclick_check=1

TxDOT: Falling Chunks of Concrete, Gaping Hole in I-20 Overpass Are Perfectly Normal
TxDOT: Falling Chunks of Concrete, Gaping Hole in I-20 Overpass Are Perfectly Normal

[Just the facts]

Just FYI Texas road lovers, Texas DOT is collapsing under the weight of their oversized road network. Highways and wide roads generate low-density development that doesn't have enough taxable value per acre to support the infrastructure.


Texas begins replacing paved roads with gravel due to lack of funding
Texas begins replacing paved roads with gravel due to lack of funding | The Raw Story

Texas may shift costly upkeep of urban state highways to Dallas, other cities
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/polit...nclick_check=1

TxDOT: Falling Chunks of Concrete, Gaping Hole in I-20 Overpass Are Perfectly Normal
TxDOT: Falling Chunks of Concrete, Gaping Hole in I-20 Overpass Are Perfectly Normal

You are wasting your time with this kind of argument. Every time this reality is brought up you might as well post it in a foreign language. Reality is so counter-institutive to them that they simply can't comprehend it, so they just ignore it. This is the exact same thing I said earlier about my tea-party friends. Debt for social programs they totally understand - but building roads we can't afford? I might as well be talking to rocks and hammers.

It is exactly like watching your neighbor buy every toy under the sun with debt - and then say to yourself - I should do that too. Why do what is driving your neighbor into unmanageable debt? And yet, I am the one called financially irresponsible. It's like I got sucked into a vortex and landed in Bizzaro World.

[ou48A]

Just FYI Texas road lovers, Texas DOT is collapsing under the weight of their oversized road network. Highways and wide roads generate low-density development that doesn't have enough taxable value per acre to support the infrastructure.


Texas begins replacing paved roads with gravel due to lack of funding
Texas begins replacing paved roads with gravel due to lack of funding | The Raw Story

Texas may shift costly upkeep of urban state highways to Dallas, other cities
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/polit...nclick_check=1

TxDOT: Falling Chunks of Concrete, Gaping Hole in I-20 Overpass Are Perfectly Normal
TxDOT: Falling Chunks of Concrete, Gaping Hole in I-20 Overpass Are Perfectly Normal

Adding 80 miles of gravel roads in a state 5 time the size of Oklahoma is hardly significant funding problem when they are going to be damaged by very heavy truck traffic anyway...

Do you have any idea on how much new money will be flowing to the state of Texas over the next decade or so?

These problems you site are going to be a drop in the ocean for them.

[ou48A]

You are wasting your time with this kind of argument. Every time this reality is brought up you might as well post it in a foreign language. Reality is so counter-institutive to them that they simply can't comprehend it, so they just ignore it. This is the exact same thing I said earlier about my tea-party friends. Debt for social programs they totally understand - but building roads we can't afford? I might as well be talking to rocks and hammers.

It is exactly like watching your neighbor buy every toy under the sun with debt - and then say to yourself - I should do that too. Why do what is driving your neighbor into unmanageable debt? And yet, I am the one called financially irresponsible. It's like I got sucked into a vortex and landed in Bizzaro World.

Do you have any idea on how much new money will be flowing to the state of Texas over the next 2 or 3 decades or so?
I don't think you do.