OKC or TULSA? Which Metro Has The Most Long-Term Growth Potential?

[okcpulse]

I meet with corporate leaders there all the time and they say the same thing. There's almost a bunker mentality there, though, when it comes to OKC.

The corporate leaders even rip OKC? See, this is when Tulsa becomes a city I just don't like. When Tulsa's local media, city leaders, citizens and corporate leaders are all in on the 'let's rip OKC to shreds' propoganda, that's when Tulsa becomes my enemy. I used to love Tulsa... until I discovered the "We Hate OKC" culture, which pretty much sums up the city of Tulsa. Why should I be partial with Tulsa?

[Swake2]

The corporate leaders even rip OKC? See, this is when Tulsa becomes a city I just don't like. When Tulsa's local media, city leaders, citizens and corporate leaders are all in on the 'let's rip OKC to shreds' propoganda, that's when Tulsa becomes my enemy. I used to love Tulsa... until I discovered the "We Hate OKC" culture, which pretty much sums up the city of Tulsa. Why should I be partial with Tulsa?

Please, provide examples of this anywhere other than former mayor misfortune, who was quickly shown the door.

[jbrown84]

and Hertz has everything here except its national HQ, which rumor here in Houston says that relocation to OKC is not far off.

That would certainly make Oklahoma the "car rental company capitol of the world".

Please, provide examples of this anywhere other than former mayor misfortune, who was quickly shown the door.

Okay. A Tulsa company published "Oklahoma Magazine", and even places it in OKC retail outlets, yet all the articles are about Tulsa, things in Tulsa, people in Tulsa, etc, etc, etc. Their annual "Best of OK" issue is nothing but Tulsa except in things it can't claim like best sports entertainment. The whole magazine screams "Tulsa is the only thing good in Oklahoma". It's an utter joke, and speaking as someone who works for an advertising agency that ignored the magazine for advertising our clients, it completely alienates OKC. It's pure arrogance.

[Swake2]

Explain the "Daily Oklahoman" then, much the same thing, only a nod to Tulsa even existing, no "city" in the name.

[jbrown84]

Well, the Oklahoman has a complete "State" section every Sunday, and features ongoing coverage of the Tar Creek saga, Illinois River pollution issues, small towns, and statewide "Discover Oklahoma" articles in the Destinations section. Sure, it doesn't cover Tulsa much simply because Tulsa has it's own major paper. But I guarantee you most people in smaller towns read the Oklahoman before they read the Tulsa World. It makes sense that the statewide paper is based in the state capital.

[jbrown84]

Directly from "Oklahoma" Magazine's website:

"Our December 2006 issue has something for everyone. We take a look at Tulsa’s Art Deco treasures and a group that’s trying to save them. Plus, find out how Oklahoma rates when it comes to taking care of Mother Earth. Meet women religious leaders who are making a difference, and learn about autism through one Tulsa family’s story."

"Oklahoma Magazine’s guide to the holidays is your resource for shopping, buying art and winter fashion. Inside this issue, you’ll meet some of the best-dressed Oklahomans in our annual People with Style, and get sneak peek inside homes decked out for the Jenks Home Tour."

"PIPELINING IN MY BLOOD

With Oklahoma’s upcoming attainment of the centennial milestone, it seems like there’s a newfound appreciation for all manner of Sooner State phenomena aged 100 years. But how about an Oklahoma business that’s even older? Tulsa-based Sheehan Pipe Line Construction Company, the nation’s oldest such company and without question one of its most successful, has local roots that date back to 1903.
That year, John “Jack” Sheehan, ...blah, blah, blah..."

WHAT I'VE LEARNED (bios/interviews)

Linda Hasler-Reid
Oklahoma 2007 / Centennial State
Teacher of the Year
Spanish Teacher, 7th and 8th Grade Center, Muskogee Public Schools

David R. Stewart, CEO (pictured in Tulsa's Cherokee Casino)
Cherokee Nation Enterprises, LLC
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Derek W. Gates, Owner and Principal Engineer
D.W. Gates Engineering Services, Tulsa

Sheryl Chinowth, CEO
Chinowth & Cohen Realtors, Tulsa

Jeffery W. Davis, CEO
U.S. Beef Corporation / Arby’s, Tulsa


and a list of their advertisers...

Utica Square
Bank of Oklahoma
Land Rover Tulsa
Lexus of Tulsa
Hillcrest
Yale Cleaners
Miss Jackson's
Center One
Crown BMW
Bartlesville Area Convention and Visitors Center
Gilcrease Museum
Toni's Flowers & Gifts
Don Tracy Glass Co.
Natural Stone Source
Fox 23
Farmers Insurance Group
Brighton Gardens Assisted Living
Fuji Japanese Cuisine and Sushi Bar
Tulsa Job Corp.
University School
Riverfield Country Day School
Cherokee Casino • Resort
Cox Communications
Mill Creek
Heartland Flyer
Cisar-Holt
Los Cabos
Tulsa Symphony Orchestra
Vespa Oklahoma
Bella Body Image
Celebrity Attractions





it speaks for itself

[Swake2]

Directly from "Oklahoma" Magazine's website:

"Our December 2006 issue has something for everyone. We take a look at Tulsa’s Art Deco treasures and a group that’s trying to save them. Plus, find out how Oklahoma rates when it comes to taking care of Mother Earth. Meet women religious leaders who are making a difference, and learn about autism through one Tulsa family’s story."

"Oklahoma Magazine’s guide to the holidays is your resource for shopping, buying art and winter fashion. Inside this issue, you’ll meet some of the best-dressed Oklahomans in our annual People with Style, and get sneak peek inside homes decked out for the Jenks Home Tour."

"PIPELINING IN MY BLOOD

With Oklahoma’s upcoming attainment of the centennial milestone, it seems like there’s a newfound appreciation for all manner of Sooner State phenomena aged 100 years. But how about an Oklahoma business that’s even older? Tulsa-based Sheehan Pipe Line Construction Company, the nation’s oldest such company and without question one of its most successful, has local roots that date back to 1903.
That year, John “Jack” Sheehan, ...blah, blah, blah..."

WHAT I'VE LEARNED (bios/interviews)

Linda Hasler-Reid
Oklahoma 2007 / Centennial State
Teacher of the Year
Spanish Teacher, 7th and 8th Grade Center, Muskogee Public Schools

David R. Stewart, CEO (pictured in Tulsa's Cherokee Casino)
Cherokee Nation Enterprises, LLC
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Derek W. Gates, Owner and Principal Engineer
D.W. Gates Engineering Services, Tulsa

Sheryl Chinowth, CEO
Chinowth & Cohen Realtors, Tulsa

Jeffery W. Davis, CEO
U.S. Beef Corporation / Arby’s, Tulsa


and a list of their advertisers...

Utica Square
Bank of Oklahoma
Land Rover Tulsa
Lexus of Tulsa
Hillcrest
Yale Cleaners
Miss Jackson's
Center One
Crown BMW
Bartlesville Area Convention and Visitors Center
Gilcrease Museum
Toni's Flowers & Gifts
Don Tracy Glass Co.
Natural Stone Source
Fox 23
Farmers Insurance Group
Brighton Gardens Assisted Living
Fuji Japanese Cuisine and Sushi Bar
Tulsa Job Corp.
University School
Riverfield Country Day School
Cherokee Casino • Resort
Cox Communications
Mill Creek
Heartland Flyer
Cisar-Holt
Los Cabos
Tulsa Symphony Orchestra
Vespa Oklahoma
Bella Body Image
Celebrity Attractions





it speaks for itself

Really, this is just moronic. Are Tulsan’s are not from Oklahoma?

The “Daily Oklahoman” is Oklahoma City’s newspaper, not Tulsa’s, do you think it should change it’s name? it even claim’s to be “The State’s Newspaper” and yet only gives nodding attention to anything in Tulsa. Tulsa Metro is over 25% of the state population and you admit there is little in it about Tulsa.

Come on, it can’t be the state’s newspaper if ignores such a large part of the state. But you know what, I have never heard anyone complain about the name of Oklahoma City's paper or it's byline.

The Oklahoman is a Oklahoma newspaper and as such certainly can use that name, nothing wrong with it. And the Oklahoman has newspaper boxes all over Tulsa, for the record.

It would be petty and moronic to take offence at the lack of articles and ads from Tulsa in a newspaper printed in Oklahoma City, no matter what that paper is titled.

But, apparently Tulsans cannot use the name “Oklahoma” in anything if we don’t include Oklahoma City with at least equal news and ad space? That’s stupid and offensive and shows the attitude, the narcissistic attitude, of some about Oklahoma City and its place in the state.

Get over it, it’s published in Tulsa and is about Oklahoma, it’s just not really focused to be about your part of the state much. Just like the Oklahoman Newspaper. And what about the Oklahoma Gazette? Is there ever an article, any article about Tulsa?

And, no matter what, I truly fail to see this as an example of “Tulsa's local media, city leaders, citizens and corporate leaders are all in on the 'let's rip OKC to shreds' propaganda”. Not giving equal space in a magazine is hardly “ripping to shreds”. Has there ever been there a single negative article about Oklahoma City in that magazine? And that piece of fluff can only marginally be called “media” anyway.

[Swake2]

That would certainly make Oklahoma the "car rental company capitol of the world".

Car rental is a great example Oklahoma city not keeping up with Tulsa in the private sector.

Oklahoma might be the car rental capital of the nation? How about Tulsa already is.

Oklahoma City has the operations part of Hertz and is rumored that it might get the headquarters. While that would be a big win for Oklahoma City and the state and I hope that happens, Tulsa already has the headquarters of Dollar, Thrifty, National, and Alamo and has the operations part of Avis and Budget.







Please someone, back up the statement: “Tulsa's local media, city leaders, citizens and corporate leaders are all in on the 'let's rip OKC to shreds' propaganda”.

This simply isn't true and there is far more crap coming from the south side of the turnpike and it's over stupid perceptions and comments that for the most part (outside of one ridiculous and disgraced former mayor) are just that Tulsan’s don’t think Oklahoma City is the worlds greatest city and don’t all just love Bricktown. And far worse, might actually think Tulsa has some better attributes that Oklahoma City (and if Tulsan’s didn’t think that overall, why would they live in Tulsa?)

Grow up, really.

[jbrown84]

Car rental is a great example Oklahoma city not keeping up with Tulsa in the private sector.

Oklahoma might be the car rental capital of the nation? How about Tulsa already is.

Oklahoma City has the operations part of Hertz and is rumored that it might get the headquarters. While that would be a big win for Oklahoma City and the state and I hope that happens, Tulsa already has the headquarters of Dollar, Thrifty, National, and Alamo and has the operations part of Avis and Budget.

Oh please. That's ridiculous. How many cities DON'T have the (inter)national headquarters of a car rental company. Almost every city. The fact that Tulsa has Vanguard and Dollar-Thrifty and OKC on has Hertz (sort of) is hardly an example of us lagging behind you in the private sector.


As I stated before, The Oklahoman does have occasional Tulsa-related articles, and the only reason it's semi-ignored is because nobody reads The Oklahoman for Tulsa news, they read the Tulsa World. It's overkill. It's better to focus on OKC and the rest of the state.

I never said that magazine actually "ripped" OKC or whatever words someone else used. It's simply an example of the arrogant attitude that some Tulsans have regarding their superiority.


Again, from their About Us on their website (www.okmag.com):

"Our monthly columns/departments include: dining guide, calendar of events, business profiles, health news, home and garden, travel and people features — something for every Oklahoman.
And Oklahoma Magazine invests in our communities. We sponsor local nonprofit events important to the causes our readers care about, including breast cancer awareness, women’s heart health, muscular dystrophy and the arts."


They say they represent the entire state, yet they clearly do not, or they would have OKC-based advertisers. And I have never seen them sponsor any OKC community event or cause.

[Swake2]

No, they said they had "something for every oklahoman", i.e. something for every Oklahoman to read. Maybe YOU just specifially DON'T want to read anything about Tulsa or the Tulsa area. I think this would you YOUR bias that is showing, not the magazine's.

And, where exactly does it say Oklahoma Magazine represents the entire state?

And, for the record, I have seen some articles about Oklahoma City in this magazine, not many, but some. Kinda like your newspaper, "The Oklahoman", which does state that it IS "The State's Newspaper" everyday, right on the front page and is sold all over Tulsa.

[jbrown84]

"something for every Oklahoman" = represents the entire state

[traxx]

No, they said they had "something for every oklahoman", i.e. something for every Oklahoman to read. Maybe YOU just specifially DON'T want to read anything about Tulsa or the Tulsa area. I think this would you YOUR bias that is showing, not the magazine's.

So "Something for every Oklahoman" actually means and translates to "something for every oklahoman to read" they just forgot to add the last word. So if someone from Missouri is staying in Oklahoma for a few days and sees this magazine at their hotel, they shouldn't pick it up because it has something for every Oklahoman to read but not every Missourian or anyone else that might be able to read?

Wow swake, aren't we defensive.

There, there

[Swake2]

What in the hell are you so offended about? Why are people in OKC so damned touchy about Tulsa and what Tulsan's think of your city?

Back on topic: Prospects for growth, let's see.

Health care and research. Oklahoma City has a very good growth engine in the OU Medical Center. Tulsa has a lot to catch up with the OSU Medical Center, but now that Tulsa does have that we should see more growth in that sector. OKC big advantage.

Oil and Gas is still Tulsa’s baby and rising prices are only going to help. Oklahoma City will also see growth in this sector, but with less of an existing industry segment the growth will be less. Tulsa big advantage, but, energy is so cyclical, look for periods of little or no growth.

Aerospace, Oklahoma City and Tulsa are both big here and this sector should be taking off again very soon. Tulsa’s has an advantage today with it’s segment being already larger and OKC’s is too much invested in the military. With Boeings Dreamliner taking off and Quantas being purchased by Spirit Aerospace’s parent company, I would think Tulsa’s prospects for growth are even higher than Oklahoma City’s very positive outlook. OKC has good upside in the Boeing center and currently in the Air force, but, with the war likely to wind down soon and the Republican’s leaving power look for little to no growth there and another round of base closings before too long. OKC could (and should) win more work with base closings, but there always is that huge threat that the Air Force could leave. Tulsa has Bizjet, Nordam and others all already in growth mode too. The American Airlines base (already the biggest in the world) is now focusing on outsourced work from airlines around the world. Tulsa has a big advantage.

Travel and tourism, OKC is beating Tulsa here, and badly, but, there’s also little upside to grow Oklahoma City’s advantage where Tulsa has a lot of new things happening to drive tourism growth. Tulsa is 5-10 years behind OKC now, and OKC needs to plan now to meet that, in my mind the conversion of the Cox center to a convention center needs to start to happen very soon (or a new convention center built) and OKC needs real river development or OKC will see itself get passed in the next 5 years. Tulsa is the winner from a growth perspective, but only a little and only if OKC doesn’t act.

Government. Not a growth industry and OKC is way, way too invested in it.

Education, With OU the OKC area is the clear winner. However, with new campuses for OU, OSU and NSU and big growth from TU, Tulsa is catching up, very fast.

High-tech. Tulsa with aerospace again and telecom and other existing high-tech companies is the clear leader and with new projects like OSU-Tulsa’s $90 million nano-tech lab Tulsa is pulling away.

Manufacturing. Not a growth industry, anywhere.

Call Centers, who wants them? And this is also a dying industry that both cities are too invested in, though a lot of Tulsa’s are already gone now. OKC may have a lot of pain left to feel here.

Overall, Oklahoma City had a great first half of the decade but is hitting a slight bit of a rough patch. A rough patch that will be overcome. Both cities have had lackluster growth over the last 20 years averaged out, Oklahoma City’s growth is easier to handle since it’s not so boom and bust like Tulsa’s is. Tulsa in the late 90’s was by some reports the second fastest growing city after Vegas, but then lost population for several years. The average is meager growth and an ugly experience to deal with. Oklahoma City growth, which before the last five years was nearly identacal to Tulsa's but being spread out is more healthy and manageable.

I see Tulsa outgrowing Oklahoma City for the next few years, at least as a metro area. After 2010 it will be interesting to see what happens as the energy sector has a likely cooling off period. I truly see Tulsa growing at a much faster clip after 2010 if it can avoid a meltdown again with energy and a meltdown is unlikely. Tulsa was just unlucky in how it diversified in the 90’s with all of it’s largest non-energy industries, High-tech, Telecom and Aerospace all taking a dive at the same time after 9/11. The growth Tulsa was hitting before 9/11 is coming back now and as energy fades off these need to take off again, and likely all will. Oklahoma City is too focused on government services which is likely to become more and more automated and outsourced. OKC big chance for huge growth and OKC's advantage over Tulsa in particular is in Medical Research, time will tell if that takes off, that has been predicted to be a hot sector for decades and really has never taken off overall, someday it will, but who knows when.

[jbrown84]

Thanks for that very insighful post. I don't agree with everything you say, but it's well thought out.

[metro]

swake, your forgetting one thing. OKC has much more invested in infrastructure with MAPS. We are just now in the beginning stages of seeing private development as a result of MAPS. Don't forget about the new I-40 and the Oklahoma River area to explode as well. In the next few months, downtown population will double almost overnight. This are all catalytic events meaning that it will only propel and excellerate future growth.

[Swake2]

That's three things, at least, but I digress.

Other than MAPs for Kids, which is great, what projects are just complete or nearing completetion that will have a near term impact greater than the $550 million worth of projects that are all just complete or nearing completion? Also, as for MAPs for kids, TPS has spent the last decade reconstructing the public schools using bond issues, most recently in a $162.2 million bond issue passed just a year ago. The city's other two districts, Jenks and Union have some the finiest facilities in the nation and need no help. MAPs for kids, while a fine endevor, does nothing to change the "growth" pattern between the cities.

[okcpulse]

Swake, you do have a good point regarding The Oklahoman. Quite honestly, it is more or less a city newspaper and needs to focus on such. I personally would prefer if they dropped "The Oklahoman" name altogether and revive the Oklahoma City Times. But that's a personal wish that may not see its fruition. We do not have a true city newspaper and The Oklahoman's home in Oklahoma City caters to that coverage, but it really shouldn't be a state newspaper.

But likewise, Oklahoma Magazine should really be called Tulsa Magazine. Both publications are the worst examples of unbiased coverage. I really wouldn't attack on the Oklahoma Gazette, and while the publication also should change its name to the Oklahoma City Gazette or OKC Gazette, the publication doesn't claim to be the state's independent weekly.

I do disagree somewhat in your observation that OKC is way too invested in government. That was the case, historically. However, the percentage of government employees compared to the private sector has decreased gradually, and Oklahoma City's leaders have been working to get away from landing government jobs with the exception of Tinker. Development on the Oklahoma River is waiting for its take-off once the 3-mile section relocation of I-40 is complete. But development along the river will be aided by the Native American Cultural Center, due for completion in 2009, the same year the 3-mile section of I-40 is due for completion. I honestly would develop until highway construction is finished. It would be too much of a mess.

Onto your most recent post. Metro never mentioned MAPS for Kids. Just MAPS. We consider them two seperate projects. In any case, why bring up Jenks and Union's school districts and their needing no help? Oklahoma City's Putnam City School District (which covers northwest OKC and Warr Acres) needs no assistance, nor does Edmond Public Schools (which also extends into northwest OKC), and Edmond is known for its outstanding facilities.

You are correct in that MAPS for Kids would really change the growth pattern between the two cities. That's not why we voted for MAPS for Kids. The idea behind the project (it's actually $750 million, BTW) is to both overhaul the Oklahoma City School District's 83 schools and help reverse urban sprawl. It will be some time before we see the real results of MAPS for Kids, as the project will wind down in 2009.

swake, as I posted initially, it seems to me that both Tulsa and OKC are doing things for the future growth of their cities. I have my personal goals for OKC (I am not at liberty to say what they are at this time) once I return from living in "Hellston" Texas, so that will be my contribution to the growth of OKC. Fierce competition would be good for both cities.

[Swake2]

It is my understanding that MAPs for kids does send funding to other Oklahoma City school districts other than just OKC schools. Some searching online finds that 70% of MAPs for kids goes to OKC schools and the remaining 30% goes to the other 24 districts in the city. MAPS for Kids was a $500 million dollar issue that had a $180 million bond issue passed with it. In total it's about $530 million for OKC Schools.

As for Putnam City Schools, I have recently visited North High (I think it was North), and it looks nothing like a Jenks or a Union, sorry. It cannot be compared to Jenks or Union facilities (which can border on the stupid). My Kids go to Jenks and even the brand new Booker T Washington High (where I went to school in a building that no longer exists) has nothing on Jenks.

TPS's $162 million bond is only the latest one, there was a 2001 $140 million issue, $109 million passed in 1999, and $94 million in 1996. That's $505 million in the last 10 years spent on Tulsa schools.

The river is going to be very important for both cities. Tulsa has hundreds of millions in projects now

[okcpulse]

Yes, it does, but not because those districts need help. The package was propsed that way to swing a yes vote city-wide, and it worked. The 30% of funds go to school districts that educate children that live in Oklahoma City's city limits. Since practically all of PC's students live in northwest OKC, PC coincidentally got the largest share. But who is to say that Putnam City PS doesn't pass a large bond issue to build state-of-the-art facilities that rival districts such as Union? And who is to say that OKC won't pass more bond issues for OKC PS?

Public school funding is just something I wouldn't throw into this argument. Schools are constantly upgrading in both cities.

[Swake2]

Well, if we aren't including MAPs for kids, then all MAPs projects are completed whereas Tulsa's Vision2025 projects are still being completed, thus one real reason for Tulsa to have more growth.

And if you dont think schools impact long term growth, you aren't in the real world. The Skirvin is a great project, but it's just a hotel. Schools matter.

[jbrown84]

Yeah, but MAPS began 10 years ago, and you are just barely getting started on 2025, so of course it's not over. MAPS III is not far off.

[metro]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, if we aren't including MAPs for kids, then all MAPs projects are completed whereas Tulsa's Vision2025 projects are still being completed, thus one real reason for Tulsa to have more growth.

Exactly but the Oklahoma River just opened last year for phase one and is constantly under construction. As someone mentioned, wait until the new I-40 is relocated. Then this will be a boomtown. It doesn't make sense to developers to develop here now because of all the construction mess. Yes, you are correct, the MAPS projects are now completed (not MAPS for Kids like I was misquoted). And look at the investment we're seeing from them, over 1 billion dollars of PRIVATE money has been invested in the downtown area that have documented tiebacks to MAPS. I also didn't mention the recent revamping of the State Fairgrounds that will lure more and more horse show money to our tax coffers. Look at all the housing projects going up in Downtown OKC right now. Hundreds of millions of downtown housing alone! New hotels sprouting up, and more things yet to be announced (some of which I know but can't say anything yet). And someone else also mentioned the Native American Cultural Center which is under construction and also a several hundred million dollar project. This will be directly tied with the Smithsonian in Washington D.C. and will be an international destination. The future is bright in OKC. Yes, it's also glad to see Tulsa reviving again, but we've said it again, they are playing catch up. By the time the BOK Arena is open, OKC will have a major league NBA team and all kinds of new development downtown with a 24/7 streetlife. Tulsa, will just be getting started. The thing we all seem to be missing is that we're still ONE STATE, and should be working UNITED for the betterment of our state. A successful OKC and Tulsa benefit us all!

[okcpulse]

And if you dont think schools impact long term growth, you aren't in the real world. The Skirvin is a great project, but it's just a hotel. Schools matter.

I never said schools don't matter for long term growth. I said that there is no need to throw schools into the debate because school districts in both cities are constantly upgrading, or expanding, or passing new bond issues for new infrastructure and so forth.

And who said we were done after MAPS? Half of Vision 2025's projects are stuff we do in a regular bond issue. MAPS was a project on its own, funded with sales tax money. During MAPS, Oklahoma City passed two other major bond issues, one in 1995 totaling $220 million and another in 2000 totaling another $200 million, which didn't just involve street improvements, those to bond issues provided funding for new city parks, new playgrounds, new animal shelters, etc.

[soonerguru]

"Oklahoma" Magazine is a flippin' rag, with bad writing, bad editing and bad printing.

The only quality glossy magazine in the state is Oklahoma Today magazine.

[okcpulse]

The thing we all seem to be missing is that we're still ONE STATE, and should be working UNITED for the betterment of our state. A successful OKC and Tulsa benefit us all!

I second that, and I hope swake doesn't feel I'm trying to shoot him down. Just trying to give him my perspective and facts on OKC. I always felt that the more educated we are about each others cities, the more we try to work together, we can get this state moving forward a lot faster. Which is why I am very pleased that OKC C of C and Tulsa C of C is joining forces to work together. It's what I've been looking forward to for a long time.