Picture of Jesus on the Wall

[Luke]

And Luke--did the Puritans not come here to escape religious persecution?

Excellent point. Yes, they did indeed come here to escape the religious persecution of the Church of England.

Weren't they looking to worship in their own way, a way that was different?

Exactly. They wanted to worship their own way and the Church of England wanted to force their views on them.

I thought this whole place was supposed to be about religious freedoms and differences, but it seems that people don't believe in that anymore.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Luke]

Frankly, public schools are funded by public money, taxpayers money. Some of those taxpayers do not want to see their money spent in schools where a religion is so obviously chosen for the masses.

That's right. And some taxpayers don't want to see their money spent in public schools, period. Especially when the government sponsored religion is Secular Humanism.

As a side note... why do I have to pay taxes when I don't even have kids. And when I do have kids and opt to send them to private school, I'll be paying taxes to the public school and paying for private school. Interesting, our government...

Ask a kid who's gone to a religious school...they'll tell you that the same issues (drugs, sex, rock 'n roll) are there just like they are in public schools.

Another aside, I teach in a private Christian school. There are all the same issues you mention.

But that's beside the point. Even as a nod to our nation's Christian heritage, I think we should leave all the Christian symbolism (or whatever symbolism it is) alone. Either that, or sandblast the walls of the Supreme Court, Washington Monument, Lincoln Memorial, etc. to remove every instance of religion.

I think the sheer numbers are in the religious folks' favor.

[Martin]

bandnerd, i believe the phrasing was 'idiot school board.' -M

[bandnerd]

Luke--

Show me where our government has a religion that they sponsor...and I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure Secular Humanism isn't a religion.

Paying taxes to schools even when you don't have children can be a pain, I know. However, we are all investing in our country's future this way, are we not? Do you have a better plan? I certainly don't. I like getting paid.

Is it really that hard to realize that not everyone is a Christian? I know I'm not alone here...well, maybe *here* on this forum but I know there are others out there like me. Putting up pictures of Jesus and other Christian figures in public schools gives the message that Christianity is the religion of this country, and it is not. You can say it's Secular Humanism, but I'm pretty darn sure our government has no sponsored religion, just like we don't claim an actual "national language."

I reiterate something I said earlier: Do we see Stars of David in public schools? Or Buddha statues? Or Shiva shrines? NO. While "separation of church and state" may have only been mentioned in a letter written Thomas Jefferson it was a good idea. Countries that allow religion to take over the government often fail...the Roman Empire, for one...the Middle East is in complete turmoil. To me it just seems better to keep these things separate. You can disagree, I just wanted to say that.

And is Secular Humanism all that bad? Ever looked it up?

[Luke]

so i looked into this a little more since i wanted to see the painting that was deemed oppresive. well, i found it here. i've gotta say i feel a little bamboozled on this one.

Looks can be deceiving... He's out to get YOU!



Here's a thought that is sort of puzzling to me. Why are these anti-religious people passionate about their disbelief in religion? Those who have religious ideas, sure, that I can understand having passion for. But If you don't subscribe to any religions, why do you care? Just laugh and move on. Why are many of these people insistent on wanting to take down every semblance of religion? These religious images are important to some people and have real meaning, even if it's historic.

I drive by a Planned Parenthood everyday. I don't even notice it most days. When I do, I don't try to go in and change everyone's mind about abortion. I don't sue them for "shoving their beliefs in my face" as I drive by on public streets everyday. I mean, seriously. It just seems ridiculous.

[Martin]

this is a debateable point. but, honestly, i really don't want to get into it...

i'm not so sure how this is debateable. i mean, i'll spot you george washington, but other than that...

even more of a reason to keep them up. there are many more muslims, jews and christians in the united states than those who oppose the ten commandments.

under the currently strict interpretation of separation of church and state, i don't see how religious popularity plays into this.

looks can be deceiving... he's out to get you!

yep, i'm sure they've got that picture situated by the office for a reason... so the picture stares down all the bad kids.
-M

[bandnerd]

So we aren't allowed to be passionate about something that we feel is important? We're passionate about people imposing their religious views on us when we don't want them.

If you can't understand that, then you're not trying hard enough. It's a pretty simple concept. But it goes both ways. If you feel I'm being too "imposing" with my lack of belief, then I'll just stop. We can agree to disagree about this issue. But I still stand by why I feel this painting should be taken down.

[Luke]

Luke--

Show me where our government has a religion that they sponsor...and I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure Secular Humanism isn't a religion.

I was being fecetious. The point is that there is no neutral here. It's a religion either way. Secular Humanists desire to force every religious symbol out of the public arena is as much an oppression as the Jews who were forced to wear Stars of David in WWII.

Paying taxes to schools even when you don't have children can be a pain, I know. However, we are all investing in our country's future this way, are we not? Do you have a better plan? I certainly don't. I like getting paid.

Privatize education. Let people keep their education tax dollars and send their children to whichever school they want. It's only because the government has a monopoly on education that there aren't more choices. But, I digress...

Is it really that hard to realize that not everyone is a Christian?

Not at all. I understand completely. But, are you really implying that the mere presence of, say, the Ten Commandments makes you feel proslytized? And in most cases these symbols have been around for so long. It's just that one anti-religious person wants to force their views on the whole town or whatver the case may be.

Putting up pictures of Jesus and other Christian figures in public schools gives the message that Christianity is the religion of this country, and it is not. You can say it's Secular Humanism, but I'm pretty darn sure our government has no sponsored religion, just like we don't claim an actual "national language."

Again, I was being faceitious. However, there are some Secular Humanists that do, indeed, believe it to be a religion.

I reiterate something I said earlier: Do we see Stars of David in public schools? Or Buddha statues? Or Shiva shrines? NO.

Why not? Because the United States has a Christian history.

While "separation of church and state" may have only been mentioned in a letter written Thomas Jefferson it was a good idea.

Can you imagine if a letter by President Bush is appealed to hundreds of years from now as the reason why we should or should do something? I mean, come on, it's not even a founding a document.

I dunno, it just seems that the mere presence of symbols that have been around for scores of years on public buildings is so passive a reference to religion. If Christians were trying as hard as anti-religious people to get Christian symbols put on more buildings, all hell would break loose (figuratively speaking, of course). But this is exactly what the Secular Humanists are doing - forcing their anti-religious view on everyone. Either way, someone's view is gonna win.

[Luke]

So we aren't allowed to be passionate about something that we feel is important? We're passionate about people imposing their religious views on us when we don't want them.

No, I understand that there are many who share your views and are passionate about their irreligious values.

If you can't understand that, then you're not trying hard enough. It's a pretty simple concept. But it goes both ways. If you feel I'm being too "imposing" with my lack of belief, then I'll just stop. We can agree to disagree about this issue. But I still stand by why I feel this painting should be taken down.

I understand. There are, indeed, two competing religions here: Secular Humanism and Theism (mainly Biblical Christianity). Both's agenda: further their cause.

[Luke]

under the currently strict interpretation of separation of church and state, i don't see how religious popularity plays into this.

"Strict interpretation" makes it sound like it's some sort of legal document. The separation of church and state idea was in a letter hundreds of years ago.

[Easy180]

yeah luke because of course Christians aren't trying hard to convert people to their way of thinking...only the non religious folks that are trying to impose their will on the masses

I can't even count the number of times that non religious folks have come to my home with burning in hell literature...always a great way to spend my saturday afternoons

[Martin]

luke,
granted, the phrasing isn't in the bill of rights but the first ammendment is currently interpreted as if it were. so given how the constitution is currently interpreted i didn't see how your statement came into play. -M

[PUGalicious]

Why do people have to make a big deal of Jesus hanging on a wall? Geesh!

How many Christians would make a big deal about Buddha hanging on a school wall?

[Luke]

How many Christians would make a big deal about Buddha hanging on a school wall?

And how many anti-religious people would make a big deal about a Buddha? Probably none.

[bandnerd]

Because Buddha is so much more benign. The way I've always understood it is that Buddhism isn't a religion that worships any actual god. You're looking for the path to enlightenment. Aren't we, as teachers, trying to enlighten our students?

Oops, there I go, posting before 8am. If this made no sense, please ignore it. I haven't had my oatmeal.

[Martin]

you should've waited 14 more minutes, dammit.

in any event, given your last comment it seems that your beef isn't necessarily with violating separation of church and state per se, but with religions that are vocal and actively try to recruit.

and yes, buddhism has no actual god. however, they still make offerings and such to buddha so there is a ritual component to their religion. -M

[bandnerd]

Yeah, I'll admit I have a problem with people always trying to convert me. I'm glad I live in an apartment complex that has gates to drive and walk in so they can't find me. I don't like having people knock on my door at 9pm telling me about their worship group they have formed on my complex (they were creepy...Midtowner might remember that night) or the Mormon kids on their bikes chasing me down in a cul de sac.

However, I work in a place where a majority of the teachers are Catholic, and NONE of them have ever tried to force anything on me, or recruit me to their church. They know I'm not religious, and they don't have a problem with it. My friends have never tried to convert or "fix" me. My family leaves me alone. They know I have had bad experiences with church and understand that it is an issue with me that is best left alone and in the past.

Okay, so my little psychoanalysis is over. Back to topic.

[PUGalicious]

And how many anti-religious people would make a big deal about a Buddha? Probably none.

Can you name one case where that has occured?

On the converse, I do know many Christians who have successfully managed to get Halloween celebrations banned in many public schools. Our family personally does not celebrate Halloween in any form, but we do not impose that practice on others.

Should Christians be surprised that "anti-religious people" don't want a picture of Jesus in a public school? Certainly not.

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." — Jesus (John 15:18-19)

Does removing the picture deprive Christians of their right to practice their faith? Absolutely not. Does antagonizing those who want it remove the portrait help win them to Christ? Absolutely not. Do we, as Christians, need a portrait of Jesus displayed in a public school in order to worship Him? I hope not. So, is this a battle worth fighting? I think not.

[Luke]

My point is that both sides are going to push for their viewpoints to be forced on others. Whether I agree with that or not is another issue. But it's happening by those claiming to be Christians as well as by those who are irreligious.

[Midtowner]

My point is that both sides are going to push for their viewpoints to be forced on others. Whether I agree with that or not is another issue. But it's happening by those claiming to be Christians as well as by those who are irreligious.

A wall without a portrait of Jeebus is not a viewpoint. It's a lack of one.

-- or are you attempting to assert that every single wall without a religious icon of some sort is an endorsement of atheism?

[Easy180]

good point midtowner