Downtown Grocery Store not coming soon

[Pete]

ODG, I never meant to argue with you at all, just providing my own opinion and perspective as someone that actually lives in a community that contains these stores and that shops in them on a regular basis.


And far as addressing the various points you raise, I'd rather not as you continue to be overly emotional and personal in your responses.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Yes, Metro and Patrick, very good article and how about this comment at the Roundtable from Larry Kilduff:

"Larry Kilduff, a Milwaukee consultant hired to determine if downtown can support a grocery, urged city leaders to consider closing the underground Conncourse pedestrian tunnels. He said the city is at a disadvantage luring retailers if pedestrians aren't seen on downtown sidewalks."

Go Larry, you rock! If there is an albatross hanging around the neck of downtown, its those tunnels.

Don't get me started.

[metro]

I have mixed feelings about the Conncourse. It could be one of those twenty years down the road, we're kicking ourselves for, for getting rid of them back in 2007. Remember just last year, NYC and a handful of cities were telling us what an asset they are. Only about 7 cities in the US have them.

[Patrick]

I think they're nice to have when it's raining outside.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

ODG, I never meant to argue with you at all, just providing my own opinion and perspective as someone that actually lives in a community that contains these stores and that shops in them on a regular basis.

And far as addressing the various points you raise, I'd rather not as you continue to be overly emotional and personal in your responses.

I don't think anything I said was personal, but I acknowledge your right to your own perception of reality. I was just trying to point out the holes in your statements. My reason being is that IMO, some people who read this stuff might think that a lot of what you said was more than simple conjecture; that you were relying on relevant information or broad experience. Some readers might use some of what you said to shape their own opinions about a rather important subject, again IMO.

By what you have written, though you are living in an area with grocery store choices we don't have here in OKC yet, you obviously don't find what Whole Foods offers to be appealing to your tastes. I think that is the total extent to which you can honestly comment. However you choose to suggest that Whole Foods would have no interest in locating here, their profitability required wine and beer sales, they didn't offer much and what they did offer was expensive, (I realize that I am paraphrasing here, please forgive me), OKC was not a good market for them etc.

I simply disagree with you; that's all. I do tend to put a little emotion into what I write on these forums; especially about subjects that I have a strong interest in, but I am not over wrought or anything (checked pulse; normal), just trying to make a good argument for what I believe.

If you are unwilling to concede that perhaps you spoke too hastily or that upon reconsideration you find that you might be in error on a couple of minor issues, and rather choose to rely on the tactic of trying to redirect the point of the exchange of ideas to my emotions then I'm OK with that as well. This is the modern day public square; people have been doing this for centuries. I am glad to agree to disagree and offer to buy you a beer the next time you find yourself in OKC.

[Pete]

you choose to suggest that Whole Foods would have no interest in locating here, their profitability required wine and beer sales, they didn't offer much and what they did offer was expensive, (I realize that I am paraphrasing here, please forgive me), OKC was not a good market for them etc.

I didn't say ANY of those things nor did I mean for anyone to take that meaning from what I wrote.


Saying that a specialty grocer would "never" locate in OK until the liquor laws were changed was a bit extreme on my part. I hope it can happen with the current laws because I know changing them will be hard.

But Whole Foods is based in near-by Austin and is in every neighboring state except Arkansas -- including Kansas and New Mexico which have smaller populations -- which begs the question: Why not Oklahoma? The answer seems quite obvious.

Yes, we can try and make it up to them by providing tax and other financial incentives but that seems silly to spend/re-direct public dollars without first attempting to change an antiquated law that will provide benefits far beyond one downtown OKC location.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Saying that a specialty grocer would "never" locate in OK until the liquor laws were changed was a bit extreme on my part. I hope it can happen with the current laws because I know changing them will be hard.

We agree again. That's two points in agreement and this is just Thursday. There are lots of entrenched interestes in the state that will fight to the death allowing wine and beer sales in grocery stores.

Oh, does that " . . was a bit . . ." part indicate that you might be OK with having a brewskie with a fellow extremist the next time you're in Okie City? I'll buy.

[Pete]

Only if you promise not to call me "Malidude".


Seriously, I think downtown or near downtown OKC would be a great location for Whole Foods or something similar. I just want them to be successful and pave the way for more locations in the state and similar types of retailers.

Plus, one of the best things about those stores and part of what they would bring to the market is their wine and specialty beer selections at excellent price points. It would be a shame is that wasn't part of the equation.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Only if you promise not to call me "Malidude".

It seemed clever at the time. My bad. No disrespect intended MalibuSooner. And thanks for your lively discussion on this interesting and important issue.

Seriously, I think downtown or near downtown OKC would be a great location for Whole Foods or something similar. I just want them to be successful and pave the way for more locations in the state and similar types of retailers.

Absolutely no argument from me on that. Success, as they say, breeds success.

It takes tens of millions of $s to get a large grocery retail location off the gound and it's a lot easier for me to stand here and tell Whole Foods what a great deal this market is for them than it is to justify that kind of investement in an unproven market to their board and share holders. I can only hope that they really do have the vision that they have demonstrated in developing their model and building their business so far and that my gut instincts about our city and its future aren't too far over the top.

Yours Truly,

[onemoreokie]

Does anyone remember the whole foods type store that was in Edmond (Danforth and Bryant-Kickingbird Square) some years ago? Seemed like a good location but it didn't last long. I don't know if it was a chain of stores or not.

[John]

Does anyone remember the whole foods type store that was in Edmond (Danforth and Bryant-Kickingbird Square) some years ago? Seemed like a good location but it didn't last long. I don't know if it was a chain of stores or not.

It was operated by Pratt's. I enjoyed shopping there, as they offered the type of product that a Whole Foods or Cenral Market offer. Higher quality brands than just the 'big names' and a very nice selection of organic and unique produce items.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Does anyone remember the whole foods type store that was in Edmond (Danforth and Bryant-Kickingbird Square) some years ago? Seemed like a good location but it didn't last long. I don't know if it was a chain of stores or not.

I think it was Pratt's. They had about three stores. The one in Edmond and two in OKC. Not nearly the caliber of Whole Foods. Pretty vanilla interior look and displays. Not much in the way of prepared foods and in general, the availability of organic produce to an Oklahoma grocer was not reliable then. Not successful in the long run either. I think they are totally out of business now. I still have one of their canvas shopping bags that they offered for sale. They were big on recycling and conservation of natural resources.

[FreeFlow]

Having a Whole Foods Type store, as opposed to an Albertson's, would, as the previous post indicated, create a destination grocer...pulling customers from all around the City to Downtown by giving them that which they can not get anywhere else in the Metro area. This could also provide Bricktown with an economic multiplier effect by generating additional foot traffic & patronage for the other Downtown merchants. It could be touted as an upscale amenity adding to existing incentives for residents to locate Downtown as well.

In trying to get a Trader's located in Tulsa, we were informed it was not cost effective because there were no distribution centers in the region. Perhaps a pitch to leverage OKC's central location as a regional supply/logistics hub could sweeten the deal,with regional growth potential and major cost efficiencies for them, and get one of these awesome green grocers for us.

Could a Whole Foods, or Trader Joe's get a restricted liquor license to sell beer & wine only...like convenience stores ? This would keep the the wine and cheese crowd from, well, being wine-less and help buffer the push-back from the hard liquor merchants. Think Byron's would chill a bit at folks buying bottles of 2 buck Chuck if they weren't having to compete for sales of Patron Silver ?

[The Old Downtown Guy]

The article in the Midtown Advocate was more informative than the Daily O. It sounded like Dave Lopez was really behind this deal. I'm considering trying to put together a petition drive supporting Whole Foods. Ideas?

[FreeFlow]

Can you post a link to the Advocate story ?

Think you can get several thousand sigs for the petition ? Residents; Dowtown workers; City Councilmembers; Cultural Arts; Community orgs, Non-profits; Movie-goers at the Multi-plex; Baseball game attendees, etc ?

How many sigs do you think would be required for the relaxed ordinance for for wine and strong beer; wine only ?

[okcpulse]

Downtown Guy, if you're going to start a petition drive, let's at least begin by changing the liquor laws. We need more drive behind this effort. Then we can concentrate on Whole Foods.

[John]

The first step, as pulse pointed out, is to get the antiquated and ignorant laws off the books.

Just have a 'No Blue' strikedown and get rid of all the blue laws like walking and chewing gum and liquor stuff and all that.

There's no need for that in this day and age.

[FreeFlow]

Would the petition aid or detract from changing the liquor law ? Would the petition give more weight to the effort...avoiding going in empty handed and unleveraged ?

What is involved in changing the blue laws ? If changing these is a relatively long, drawn out process, perhaps the petition and media exposure of this initiative may be a logical first step at accomplishing the goal of total removal. Perhaps a pilot program at a Downtown Grocer could be used as a proof of concept and be the catalyst for the total removal of the ordinance

But I may just be riffing here...sounds like you folks may have a better read on the issues than I so fill me in

What is the best next step ?

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Changing the controlled beverage laws in Oklahoma will, at best, be a long and incremental process and without a dedicated core group of willing and political savvy volunteers with plenty of time and the financial resources to produce ads, hire a lobbyist etc., the likelihood of success in the next few years IMO is very low.

I think first, we must get beyond this issue of wine and strong beer as being the single driver for a successful Whole Foods in OKC, and start operating on the premise that Whole Foods is a successful company as are others, Albertsons, Homeland etc. that make a profit in Oklahoma sans wine and strong beer sales and profits. Obviously, real estate prices and wages are a little lower in OKC than in Austin or Dallas and that alone might make up for the lost profit from wine and strong beer sales in those markets. I just think that focusing on wine and strong beer keeps some available recruitment actions, such as a petition drive, stalled. In other words, let’s move on.

I agree that a change is needed in these out dated statutes and perhaps Whole Foods management would be a champion for working with other grocers toward more appropriate controlled beverage laws, once they had a vested interest in the process by being in this market. To me, that makes more sense and gets the cart and the horse in better alignment than focusing on trying to change the laws first.

The Mayor, Dave Lopez and others are planning to meet with the major grocery retailers on the short list and I am considering meeting with Mick and Dave to get their blessing for a petition process. It is my understanding that this has been successful in a couple of other locations, but I don’t have all the facts to share at this time. The purpose of my post here is to get input on strategies and ideas related to conducting a petition drive not to discuss the competing philosophies of grocery store product mix and marketing.

BTW, The Advocate doesn't have an online version of their paper, so I can't link an article here. I will type in the main parts of the article in a subsequent post.

[mranderson]

If we need to change an obsolete law to get a supermarket in a growing area, then we need to do it.

Survey the states that have liquor departments in supermarkets and ask how large (per capita) the problem is with minors, and I bet the answer is next to zero.

BTW. I like Trader Joes. It is a tropical theme and looks good.

[okcpulse]

How many sigs do you think would be required for the relaxed ordinance for for wine and strong beer; wine only ?

It would need a constitutional amendment, so you're looking at 200,000 signatures.

[okcpulse]

I agree that a change is needed in these out dated statutes and perhaps Whole Foods management would be a champion for working with other grocers toward more appropriate controlled beverage laws, once they had a vested interest in the process by being in this market. To me, that makes more sense and gets the cart and the horse in better alignment than focusing on trying to change the laws first.

Keep this in mind, Whole Foods has a location in Overland Park, Kansas. Kansas, like Oklahoma, only allows grocery stores to sell low-point beer. Whole Foods has a location in Overland Park because it is the wealthiest suburb of Kansas City, MO. However, was that the only reason why Whole Foods opened a location in a low-point beer state? Moreover, low-point beer cannot be sold on Sundays in Kansas.

[FreeFlow]

Yep, Trader Joe's is a great store - sipping on some of their Italian Roast as we speak ...Whole Foods too -albeit much more expensive. The Joe's I have been too have had a REAL small selection of hard liquor; several shelves of crazy out-of-the-ordinary beers, and a small aisle of wine. Most of the wine purchases I see in these stores are the cases of two buck Chuck(Charles Shaw) Not sure of the % of sales are from these items but will check with a freind who works there...

The Old Guy may be right: Getting side-tracked on the wine and beer issue may be a distraction from the primary goal : Get a neat, unique grocer Downtown. We can start the ordinance removal from there

Tripping over dollars to get to dimes or something like that

Have great weekend folks !

[The Old Downtown Guy]

Here is the article from the MidCity Advocate. I think that it is a little more informative than the one from the Daily Oklahoman. It does indicate that there is good cooperation between the City, OKC COC and Downtown OKC and that they are trying to lay out a strategy to get there.

The MidCity Advocate Thursday May 128th, 2006
By Leslie Berger, Managing Editor

A recent study to determine the feasibility for a grocery store in downtown OKC recommended that city leaders begin recruiting a grocer while the downtown residential market continues to grow.

The study, conducted by consultant Larry Kilduff, of Kilduff Company found that while there is no statically unmet demand for a full-service grocery store right now, the ongoing revitalization of the area presents strong potential for the need in just a few years.

Downtown leaders met at a Mayor’s Roundtable last Wednesday to discuss the endeavor. Leaders noted the study indicates that a specialty grocery store such as a Central Market, Whole Foods, or Trader Joe’s, would be the best fit for downtown because it could draw customers from the greater metro area, as well as from downtown.

Dave Lopez, president of Downtown OKC, said that while three years has been tabbed as a potential time frame for a store to open downtown, he hopes that figure is on the long side.

“If we focus right and things lean our way, we can beat that three-year process,” Lopez said. He added that it’s important for area individuals to realize that it is still a long-term process. Lopez said the first step for recruitment is for downtown organizations to share the homework that they have done on this project.

“The second part is to determine how to best proceed with a champion that sponsors this, whether it is the chamber, the city or on the private side”, he said.

Russell Clause, manager of the economic development division for the city planning department, said the move needs to be very strategic. “There’s not a silver bullet solution,” he said. “We’ve been working with the Kilduff Company for quite a while now.”

Mayor Mick Cornett and representatives for the Greater OKC Chamber of Commerce will be meeting with executives from various retailers this month at an International Council of Shopping Centers meeting.

Lopez said no contact has been made with potential retailers. “We thought it was important to respect their time by making sure we had this data first,” he said.

Roy Williams, president of the Greater OKC Chamber noted the study’s suggestion that private enterprise should lead the recruitment effort, but said civic leadership, and possibly infrastructure assistance from the city will also be a component to success with this project.

“Now is the critical time to take the right actions to secure a specialty market that serves not only downtown, but benefits the entire metro area,“ Williams said.
Lopez said he was pleased with the study as a whole. I think it was identified that we’ve got a lot more strengths than weaknesses,” he said. Going through that process gives us professional insight rather than jus going on hunches we might have. That’s much more useful to grocers.”

The study identified eight strengths and three weaknesses. Strengths includes a demonstrated regional drawing power in the trade area, excellent accessibility off I-235 at both NW 10th and NW 6th streets, a significant commitment from the city to redevelop the downtown area, numerous public projects taking place in the area and the revitalization of nearby historic neighborhoods.

Weaknesses are that there is no statistical unmet demand for a full-service grocery store, restrictions on the sale of wine and beer may affect the ability to designate a site for a specialty grocery and relatively low current residential population density in a five-minute drive time.

Claus said the concern over alcohol restrictions is a growing concern for those looking to invest in downtown. He said the matter needs to be addressed from the private sector.

The study’s partners are the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce, the City and Downtown OKC Inc.

[John]

Is anyone surprised at the letter to the editor from the president of the Retail Liquor Association?



I found it funny he said that other states have monopolies.

Mr. JP Richard, you sir, are a good ol' boy.