NW 9th & Walker

[Pete]

Yeah, when I lived right down the street there were all types of characters hanging directly around that complex.

Boy, is Midtown changing... Almost all of it were single-house lots and almost all of those are long gone.

[Anonymous.]

Those two homes are cool looking. I get why they are being razed, but imagine them being converted into bars and utilizing the area in between with nice mature trees as a large outdoor patio spot. Oldschool Rainey St vibe.

[Pete]

The developers have submitted a request to the new Classen Corridor TIF for this project in the amount of $10.8 million.

the Project which shall consist of 303 residential units, structured parking and retail space with amenities including a clubhouse, lush courtyards, swimming pool, fitness center, catering kitchen and outdoor grills at a total cost of over $81,000,000;

Richard McCown (Level, Mosaic) is the lead developer but I believe Midtown Rennaisance is involved as they own some of the property on this block. I've heard they are now investing in Midtown projects where they are not the lead or primary owner.

AHMM is the architect. Rendering (design is still slightly evolving) below is looking to the northeast, roughly the same direction as the first aerial below.

On that corner will be retail/restaurant space with some live/work units.

[G.Walker]

Level 2.0

[Ryan]

The design looks like it would be a better fit in Edmond or Yukon. Why is it always low rise buildings that don’t require an elevator? I’m growing weary of these sort of developments. Maybe we can pass an ordinance no height( no density)no tif. I know I’m not directly paying for this building but they always have a large footprint and a few of these places can enormously complicates parking

[Bowser214]

Hopefully the developer of the apartments that we’re supposed to be built
Across from Midtown Court will use tiffs get jump start that project.

[The]

Level 2.0

Gross.

I’m hoping this design evolves quite a bit. This is a Darwin Award currently.

[Mississippi Blues]

The design looks like it would be a better fit in Edmond or Yukon. Why is it always low rise buildings that don’t require an elevator? I’m growing weary of these sort of developments. Maybe we can pass an ordinance no height( no density)no tif. I know I’m not directly paying for this building but they always have a large footprint and a few of these places can enormously complicates parking

The proverbial beginning of the end for a city, when the parking is complicated by residential. Fade me.

[HOT ROD]

I would agree on the requirement for density = TIF. To many low-rise proposals, we need more midrise with structured (or no) parking.

I do like they they are incorporating streetfront retail. That should also be a MUST for all downtown multifamily/multi-storey proposals.

[BoulderSooner]

I do like they they are incorporating streetfront retail. That should also be a MUST for all downtown multifamily/multi-storey proposals.

big fan of empty retail space??

[Dob Hooligan]

I read in the Oklahoman that they will have a 430 space parking structure. Richard McKown also said he doesn't want to compete with neighborhood retail.

[warreng88]

big fan of empty retail space??

This clears a little bit of it up and I think it makes sense:

McKown said the development includes three 700-square-foot live-work units on the ground floor that will be designed as open studio spaces with a kitchen and full bathroom.

These seem to be pretty full at Wheeler so I am sure they are taking part of that playbook.

[warreng88]

In Steve's article, this came up and I am not sure if I have seen it this way:

The SSLM request is structured as a “pay-in, pay-out” formula which would return 100% of property taxes paid on the property for the first five years. That percentage would drop to 85% in the sixth year, and then 75% for the seventh through 15th years.

Is that a normal TIF or is this structure new?

Obviously the main complaint about TIF is it takes away property taxes that could be used for schools, roads, etc. I know it takes it away completely for five years, but then it is declining. Again, not sure if this structure is new or now.

[Pete]

^

Pretty normal; the City used to provide money upfront and it often had to be borrowed. Once a brighter light shined on TIF, they changed to a tax rebate system.

Also, it should be noted that the description above should have mentioned 100%, 85%, 75% of the ad valorem *increment* not the total property taxes for those periods. It's the difference in the current baseline versus the substantial increases in tax that occur when you construct $80 million in improvements.

But keep in mind, this new TIF will be collecting increases in property tax across the entire Classen TIF District for 25 years, just like our other 20 TIF districts in OKC.

[Okie1234]

The design looks like it would be a better fit in Edmond or Yukon. Why is it always low rise buildings that don’t require an elevator? I’m growing weary of these sort of developments. Maybe we can pass an ordinance no height( no density)no tif. I know I’m not directly paying for this building but they always have a large footprint and a few of these places can enormously complicates parking

Anything over 4 stories requires elevators which are expensive, that's why we typically see multi family max out at 4 stories.

[onthestrip]

The design looks like it would be a better fit in Edmond or Yukon. Why is it always low rise buildings that don’t require an elevator? I’m growing weary of these sort of developments. Maybe we can pass an ordinance no height( no density)no tif. I know I’m not directly paying for this building but they always have a large footprint and a few of these places can enormously complicates parking

Some of McKowns other midtown apartments do look pretty cheap, but with AHMM designing these I would imagine these will be better. And there is a large parking garage just built north of this, and this will have its own parking garage. So there is ample parking. And no way this wont have elevators.

I do like they they are incorporating streetfront retail. That should also be a MUST for all downtown multifamily/multi-storey proposals.

See The Lift (10th and Shartel) to know why it shouldnt be a must. Making apartment developers become retail developers no matter the location, other retail nearby or ease of access is not good policy. That said, Walker and Hudson do provide a decent retail environment that could allow for a bit of street retail here but the city forcing it doesnt mean you automatically get awesome shops, boutiques and restaurants. It could end up being perpetually vacant space or constant turnover of marginal retail businesses.

[ManAboutTown]

See The Lift (10th and Shartel) to know why it shouldnt be a must. Making apartment developers become retail developers no matter the location, other retail nearby or ease of access is not good policy. That said, Walker and Hudson do provide a decent retail environment that could allow for a bit of street retail here but the city forcing it doesnt mean you automatically get awesome shops, boutiques and restaurants. It could end up being perpetually vacant space or constant turnover of marginal retail businesses.

I am amazed that after all these years, there has been NOTHING occupy those retail spaces at The Lift. Maybe they are not set up for the restaurant trade, but how about a pizza/cookie/sandwich shop, a coffee bar, or even a regular bar?!

Amazing, and such a loss of cash flow.

[Okie1234]

I am amazed that after all these years, there has been NOTHING occupy those retail spaces at The Life. Maybe they are not set up for the restaurant trade, but how about a pizza/cookie/sandwich shop, a coffee bar, or even a regular bar?!

Amazing, and such a loss of cash flow.

They didn't think about parking that's why that spot will never be occupied.

[Pete]

I am amazed that after all these years, there has been NOTHING occupy those retail spaces at The Life. Maybe they are not set up for the restaurant trade, but how about a pizza/cookie/sandwich shop, a coffee bar, or even a regular bar?!

Amazing, and such a loss of cash flow.

They have approached about everyone in OKC about that space, so it's not like they aren't trying.

The Edge has had a terrible problem as well and Devon has scores of completely empty street-level properties.

[PhiAlpha]

Some of McKowns other midtown apartments do look pretty cheap, but with AHMM designing these I would imagine these will be better. And there is a large parking garage just built north of this, and this will have its own parking garage. So there is ample parking. And no way this wont have elevators.

See The Lift (10th and Shartel) to know why it shouldnt be a must. Making apartment developers become retail developers no matter the location, other retail nearby or ease of access is not good policy. That said, Walker and Hudson do provide a decent retail environment that could allow for a bit of street retail here but the city forcing it doesnt mean you automatically get awesome shops, boutiques and restaurants. It could end up being perpetually vacant space or constant turnover of marginal retail businesses.

As far as lift goes there’s a big difference between 10th and shartel and 10th and Hudson (I know you mentioned it, just reiterating).

I tend to think space that can serve as retail is a must on major corridors even if that means it doesn’t fill up for awhile. It’s a lot easier to convert those to another use down the road if necessary than it is to convert residential to retail/commercial.

On a related note, the retail at the edge just seems like poor execution. A bunch of people here commented initially about how shallow those spaces are and I think that’s made that space more difficult to lease/use. That’s a pretty highly trafficked retail corridor as far as OKC goes.

[warreng88]

^

Pretty normal; the City used to provide money upfront and it often had to be borrowed. Once a brighter light shined on TIF, they changed to a tax rebate system.

Also, it should be noted that the description above should have mentioned 100%, 85%, 75% of the ad valorem *increment* not the total property taxes for those periods. It's the difference in the current baseline versus the substantial increases in tax that occur when you construct $80 million in improvements.

But keep in mind, this new TIF will be collecting increases in property tax across the entire Classen TIF District for 25 years, just like our other 20 TIF districts in OKC.

So, if the property value is currently $100,000 and it increases to $1,000,000, it would be the percentage of that $900,000? Making sure I understand.

[Pete]

So, if the property value is currently $100,000 and it increases to $1,000,000, it would be the percentage of that $900,000? Making sure I understand.

Yes, and they only get the $10.8 million; it stops once they hit that amount.

[Oski]

They have approached about everyone in OKC about that space, so it's not like they aren't trying.

The Edge has had a terrible problem as well and Devon has scores of completely empty street-level properties.

I guess if they list it for $10/sqft, there will be some movement, like a coffee shop, boba shop, sandwich shop, or bakery opening up.

[coatesindc]

Anything over 4 stories requires elevators which are expensive, that's why we typically see multi family max out at 4 stories.

OKC's currently-adopted building code requires an elevator for anything over 3 occupied floors. This is the case across 99% of the Country. It is possible to create a 4-story building by creating 2-story units as part of the project (typically on the ground floor or top floors), but I don't think that is what is happening here. What is likely driving 4 stories vs 5 stories is the ability to use Type V construction typology (less expensive) versus Type III, not the avoidance of elevators. Elevators are certainly very expensive, but one can amortize 3-4 elevators across 400 units without too much pain.

Is there info out there that suggest these are walkups? The fact that the Oklahoman article states that they are targeting rents in the $2.15-$2.40/sf range (necessary based on today's interest rates and construction costs for ground up builds) suggests that this building almost certainly will have elevators just like all of the other 4-5 story apartments downtown.

[Jeepnokc]

They have approached about everyone in OKC about that space, so it's not like they aren't trying.

The Edge has had a terrible problem as well and Devon has scores of completely empty street-level properties.

Has Devon marketed or attempted to rent the retail? I was under the impression they put it in to appease the city but didn't have any intention of renting it out