Loyal v. Murphy - Possibility of Indian Reservations in Oklahoma

[mugofbeer]

Maybe the Gov. needs to pay the tribes a lump some for the land that they forced the tribes to take and then forced them to open to settlers. Like eminent domain?

Don't think the government hasn't paid money to members of some tribes. l can't speak for which tribes or if this continues, but when l was in college, there were many Native Americans from several tribes whose college costs were paid by the government. l recall some of them saying they got annual government checks.

[tulamokom]

Don't think the government hasn't paid money to members of some tribes. l can't speak for which tribes or if this continues, but when l was in college, there were many Native Americans from several tribes whose college costs were paid by the government. l recall some of them saying they got annual government checks.

As a registered member of the Delaware Nation, I can say that the scholarships most likely came through the BIA. As for the annual government checks, no. No such thing exists. They may have per capita payments from their tribes. I received a check fr $4770 when I turned eighteen for my share of land that was purchased by the government. What a rip off. Our lands constituted New York City all the way to Philadelphia.

[mugofbeer]

As a registered member of the Delaware Nation, I can say that the scholarships most likely came through the BIA. As for the annual government checks, no. No such thing exists. They may have per capita payments from their tribes. I received a check fr $4770 when I turned eighteen for my share of land that was purchased by the government. What a rip off. Our lands constituted New York City all the way to Philadelphia.

Does it differ depending on the tribe and what may have been negotiated in the past?

[tulamokom]

No.

[mugofbeer]

No.

Interesting, and maybe something changed but in the 3 years l was in the dorms, there were a lot of happy guys when check time came. lts been a lot of years but l suspect there are some individual differences between tribes.

[tulamokom]

Interesting, and maybe something changed but in the 3 years l was in the dorms, there were a lot of happy guys when check time came. lts been a lot of years but l suspect there are some individual differences between tribes.

No, once again. I guarantee you that those checks were tribal per capita checks. This is how the myth of "Indian money" gets started.

[dankrutka]

The idea that Indigenous Nations don’t have claims to land because of removal is absurd considering they were promised the land. Indian Territory was agreed to forever be Indigenous lands. The U.S. government used the Civil War as an excuse to again break their agreements, and of course the all-white Supreme Court and almost all-white Congress upheld the theft. Indigenous Peoples didn’t just now start fighting for sovereignty. They always have been fighting for it. The paternalistic attitude in this thread bemoaning what Indigenous Nations can handle is ironic considering the state of Oklahoma right now. Again, this case seems to being framed in alarmist ways to dismiss Indigenous claims.

[tulamokom]

The young United States signed the first treaty with my tribe, the Lenni Lenape, aka Delaware with the Treaty of Fort Pitt. British troops had landed and were going to put down the rebellion once and for all. A panicked George Washington plead with our tribe to fight arguably the best military of the time. Remember that there was no standing army at this time, only poorly trained militia. We agreed to his pleas and sent our best warriors forward as shock troops, slowing the British advance enough for the militia to organize. There was also a provision of the treaty that stated that there would be a Native State with our tribe as the leader of the state. Obviously, that portion of the treaty wasn't ratified by congress. In summation, without my tribe's sacrifice there would be no United States.

[Plutonic Panda]

“In summation, without my tribes sacrifice there would be no United States”

That is a hilarious statement and one you will never be able to prove.

[tulamokom]

“In summation, without my tribes sacrifice there would be no United States”

That is a hilarious statement and one you will never be able to prove.

Don't believe me? Research the Treaty of Fort Pitt.

[Midtowner]

The idea that Indigenous Nations don’t have claims to land because of removal is absurd considering they were promised the land. Indian Territory was agreed to forever be Indigenous lands. The U.S. government used the Civil War as an excuse to again break their agreements, and of course the all-white Supreme Court and almost all-white Congress upheld the theft. Indigenous Peoples didn’t just now start fighting for sovereignty. They always have been fighting for it. The paternalistic attitude in this thread bemoaning what Indigenous Nations can handle is ironic considering the state of Oklahoma right now. Again, this case seems to being framed in alarmist ways to dismiss Indigenous claims.

Oh the moral signaling!! The tribes did side with the confederacy. Rebellion has consequences.

[CloudDeckMedia]

Promises are made in time of war and broken afterwards, and alliances change. Afghan & Iraqi translators were promised emmigration to the US and were later denied. We supported the Taliban in their war with the Soviets, and now they’re our enemy. We’ve been enemies of the French, Germans and Japanese over time, but now they’re our allies. Our Soviet ally is now our enemy. This is what nations and powers have done throughout history.

[Midtowner]

Are you really comparing tribes which call towns like Seminole their capitol to the Soviet Union

[Zuplar]

Wow this thread has really went off the rails.

Lets stick to this case.

[Zuplar]

Are you really comparing tribes which call towns like Seminole their capitol to the Soviet Union

And for what it's worth the capitol of the Seminole Nation in Oklahoma is actually Wewoka, not Seminole.

[CloudDeckMedia]

Are you really comparing tribes which call towns like Seminole their capitol to the Soviet Union

Of course not. Reread my first sentence.

[tulamokom]

My take on the decision is that our tribal reservations (land that is put into federal trust) boundaries are more fluid than we thought. Tribes may be able to purchase more land to put into trust thus expanding our land base.
In spite of the "so what, we screw our allies over" thought, my tribe has fought for the United States in every conflict it has been in. We tribes take such mutual defense pacts quite seriously. And yes, most of the Five Civilized fought for the Confederacy. My tribe fought for the U.S. by joining the U.S. Indian Home Guard, the Second Unit, to be precise. We fought so well that Confederate forces out in western Oklahoma sued for peace.

[CloudDeckMedia]

Wow this thread has really went off the rails.

Lets stick to this case.

I think a broader discussion is relevant, but perhaps in another thread not devoted to the specifics of this case. That was my point, and sorry to threadjack.

[dankrutka]

“In summation, without my tribes sacrifice there would be no United States”

That is a hilarious statement and one you will never be able to prove.

I'm not even sure where to start with a comment like this. You dismiss someone's very personal and accurate history and don't even provide any evidence for your dismissive claims. You can do better than this.

It seems like a lot of posters in this thread know very little about Indigenous Histories and the ways that Indigenous lands were stolen through fraudulent and broken treaties throughout American history. Moreover, Indigenous Peoples played incredibly important roles in the shaping of the United States and also in resisting the U.S. onslaught and fighting to maintain sovereignty into the present. If nothing else, check out Harrah, Oklahoma native Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz' An Indigenous Peoples History of the United States. While there are a lot of great social studies teachers and history professors, there has been so much miseducation for so long regarding Oklahoma and U.S. History that you often have to re-educate yourself by learning about/from different historical perspectives.

The reason these historical issues came up in this thread is because some posters were making inaccurate or incomplete historical claims related to sovereignty issues.

[OKCRT]

I think the tribes should be compensated for the land. Obviously don't think they will regain rights to the land after all these years but they should be compensated and I would be willing to wager that is exactly what will happen. Returning the land to a reservation would create chaos and anarchy on so many levels I just don't see how it could be done.

Maybe they should get a % of the property taxes for the next 130 years or a per acre price lump sum? It needs to be a fair process this time.

[tulamokom]

I think the tribes should be compensated for the land. Obviously don't think they will regain rights to the land after all these years but they should be compensated and I would be willing to wager that is exactly what will happen. Returning the land to a reservation would create chaos and anarchy on so many levels I just don't see how it could be done.

Maybe they should get a % of the property taxes for the next 130 years or a per acre price lump sum? It needs to be a fair process this time.

There are already reservations in Oklahoma. You may have noticed that when you drive I-40 or I-44. Due to the destruction of the Dawes act there will never be huge reservations like the Dine reservation. But there may be more tribally owned businesses pop up that will be open to the public. We do not wish for vengeance and retribution but we do wish to live in peace and prosper with our neighbors.

[HangryHippo]

There are already reservations in Oklahoma. You may have noticed that when you drive I-40 or I-44. Due to the destruction of the Dawes act there will never be huge reservations like the Dine reservation. But there may be more tribally owned businesses pop up that will be open to the public. We do not wish for vengeance and retribution but we do wish to live in peace and prosper with our neighbors.

Are you not currently?

[Zuplar]

There are already reservations in Oklahoma. You may have noticed that when you drive I-40 or I-44. Due to the destruction of the Dawes act there will never be huge reservations like the Dine reservation. But there may be more tribally owned businesses pop up that will be open to the public. We do not wish for vengeance and retribution but we do wish to live in peace and prosper with our neighbors.

This is incorrect. The only "reservation" in this state is the Osage Reservation, and that at times has come under scrutiny whether it is truly a reservation in such as say the Navajo nation in Northern Arizona. What you referring to with those signs along the interstate are tribal jurisdictional areas.

[okccowan]

The Osage Reservation was found to have been disestablished by the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals several years ago. The Tenth Circuit recently found the Creek Reservation had NOT been disestablished, though that is the case before the Supreme Court right now. Under the Supreme Court cases, Solem and Parker, only Congress can disestablish a reservation.

[Jersey Boss]

I think the tribes should be compensated for the land. Obviously don't think they will regain rights to the land after all these years but they should be compensated and I would be willing to wager that is exactly what will happen. Returning the land to a reservation would create chaos and anarchy on so many levels I just don't see how it could be done.

Maybe they should get a % of the property taxes for the next 130 years or a per acre price lump sum? It needs to be a fair process this time.

I agree with your sentiments that the tribes should be compensated for the land. Where I disagree however would be the property tax source. This was a screw up by the federal government, and they are the entity that needs to make the tribes whole. To take money from the primary source of school funding is flat out wrong.