How do we get you back?

[Patrick]

Here are some other verses dealing with prostitution:

Deuteronomy 23
18 You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute [1] into the house of the LORD your God to pay any vow, because the LORD your God detests them both.

Leviticus 19
29 " 'Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

Leviticus 21
9 " 'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.

Proverbs 6
25 Do not lust in your heart after her beauty
or let her captivate you with her eyes,
26 for the prostitute reduces you to a loaf of bread,
and the adulteress preys upon your very life.
27 Can a man scoop fire into his lap
without his clothes being burned?

[Patrick]

By far this is the most important:

1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

[mranderson]

My intentions were not to get into a holy war. As I said, I did not know for sure if prostitution was directly mentioned in the bible. Ok. So you hit me with both barrels. Enough said about that. I still want people to see both sides of the issue and let people make THEIR choice as to whether or not they wish to participate in these acts.

Keith. I did not intend to offend you. The information I wrote was told to me several years ago by several people at St. Lukes United Methodist Church when I attended there. So, it was logical for me to have the belief that she was and he did. Enough said.

[Patrick]

Hey mranderson, yeah my intentions weren't to get in a holy war either. Sorry if it seemed like that. I just wanted to provide the verses. I probably got a little carried away with the number of verses I provided. I think Keith's presentation sufficed. But, anyways, enough said on this topic. You are right though, it's great to hear both sides on the topic.

[downtownguy]

Ok, we've seen this argument played out on previous boards. Let's call it quits before it turns into a flame.
Rob, Keith, you're both arguing over something that's not going to happen.
And surely there are other ideas on how to draw people back to Oklahoma City than creating an adult entertainment district.

[mranderson]

There is no argument. It is a discussion about a subject that, all be it controversial, needs to be discussed with both sides. Not just the one usually heard in the bible belt.

Plus. I, for one, have no idea when "never" is. So, I do not know if we will have our rights in this state or not. I hope we do. "Never" is a long time. No one can predict what will happen. Remember. At the turn of the 20th century, people said man would never fly. Need I say more? Think about it.

[okcpulse]

I apologize, everyone. It's my fault for getting this thread off into a tangent. Back to the topic.

There are many ideas we can bring to action to bring people back to Oklahoma City. If I had the job of recruiting former residents of our city, I would show them the best of what's happening to Oklahoma City. Educate them on what was when they were here, what is, and what will be happening in our city. But you have to know how to talk to people in order to sell Oklahoma City. You have to know Oklahoma City's every sparkle and flaw, and why they exist. For my vacation book's protection, I cannot disclose any special features, but it will hopefully help a great deal when attracting people back. Progress has been slow since I have been committing my time to my marriage, work and education. I will be completing it while in Texas on vacation two weeks from now.

[Patrick]

Well, to help okcpulse get us back on track (by the way, thanks for getting us bak on track.....I love the maturity of the members on this board!!)....... Although I'm still living in OKC, I can provide an example of why I've considered leaving. This might shed some light on how we can get many who have left back. Unfortunately, OKC just doesn't have as many good career/professional opportunities as surrounding areas. My fiancee just finished ultrasound school at the OU Health Sciences Center, and there's not an ultrrasound positino available anywhere in the state. For months now, we've sat around looking at virtually every hospital and clinic in the state. None have any openings. Meanwhile, Texas has so many openings many of the hospitals are offering sign on bonuses up to $5,000. My brother, who lives in Sacramento, CA, told me recently that out there they're offering up to $15,0000 sign on bonuses for ultrasonographers.
Have we considered leaving Oklahoma??? Definitely! Why haven't we? Well, I'm in medical school here and my fiancee doesn't really want to leave her family. So she's considering taking a lower paying state job in another field. Bummer!

I can provide other examples. I have a good friend from college who's a computer programmer.....he couldn't find work in OKC....he found a job paying $60,000 in Houston. I have another friend whose a teacher. During the recent budget crunch, he couldn't find work in Oklahoma. He's now working in Dallas and making much more than if he was working here.

To attract many of these people back to our state, we're going to have to offer them high tech jobs with decent pay. Many college grads are leaving our state for the better jobs across the border. How do we go about doing this? Well, a good first start would involve changing our current tax system!

Any other ideas on how to attract people back?

[mranderson]

Truth be known, I want to leave and not look back.

Although we have shared some good ideas that would bring Oklahoma City to the current century, the city council is just sitting around with their thumb up their (). Plus, (no offense to anyone on this board) the religious people really do make this place a laughing stock. Every time we have a proposal for casinos, lottery, or anything else THEY consider immoral, they get into the control mode and brainwash people into thinking they have a point, when, in fact, they use very outdated and incorrect information to plea their case.

I want to go to an area that has a proven trck record of forward thinking. One where a guy can walk into a casino or a video store and not have some person thumping a bible in their face. (again, no offense) A place that says major league sports CAN make it here, Disney or Universal are the best choices for themeparks, and corporations are on a waiting list to get in. OK, so the last one is a bit of a stretch, but it could happen. And a place where the city council and the airport trust (or whatever they call it there) goes after airlines for hub staus and corporations with both barrels.

In other words, I am tired of telling people we CAN have all these things, and them tell me "major league sports won't work here, it is too expensive" or "television and corporate sponsorship is too low," or "Oklahoma City is too small for a hub," or "we don't need light rail or a larger airport terminal," "Disney or Universal wouldn't fit here." In other words, I am sick up to my eyeballs with pessimism, apathy, and negitivity. THAT is a major reason we are not growing at the rate we can and why Oklahoma City is not really a destination.

I even had a guy one time ask me where Oklahoma City was! Go figure. I asked him if he had ever heard of Oklahoma. He said yes and described dust, cows, and churches on every corner along with girls wearing chastity belts. I then asked him if he knew where Oklahoma was. He said yes. Incorrectly he said in the south. I corrected him and said Oklahoma was midwest, and said "if you know where Oklahoma is, then you know where Oklahoma City is." He called me rude. I responded by calling him an idiot and walked off. People like that guy and the pessimistic attitude are major reasons why we are not getting the good things.

Yes. Bricktown is growing. Toby Keith is building there. I bet if he did not live in Moore, that club would be in Nashville. Bricktown is not enough. Oklahoma City metro the home of major league sports, Disney World Central, corporations out the wazoo, a large hub at the 60 gate Will Rogers. THAT gets the attention of the world. Not apathetic citizens like I run into all the time. THAT is the reason I want out. Can that opinion change? Yes. However, it will take about one million people to do it. Change the attitude. WE CAN DO IT! These things WILL work here.

I am looking at places in California and Florida (although the houses I looked at when I was in Florida last time were destroyed last night). Those states pride themselves on scenic beauty as well as forward thinking. Plus, although every state has their share of religious people, they are not as common in those states.

How soon will I make my move? Being realistic about it, probably not until my parents are gone or I win the lottery. I will be able to retire and build anywhere in the country except L.A., the San Francisco Bay area, and a couple of others.

Until then, I will continue to fight for the adult entertainment freedom, the major league sports, the hub, the REAL theme parks, and the mega corporations to come into Oklahoma City. After that time, I will still bring my side to the board.

[Patrick]

I think some of your points are valid. It is important to point out that Houston and Dallas have even more religious people than we do though, so I'm not quite sure that's an issue.
I think the issue has more to do with the mindset of our leaders, both local and statewide. Fortunately, I think the new term limits will take care of part of the problem. But, I think Tom Coburn is right in the statement he made about our lawmakers in OKC......many of them are cr@pheads and they're just holding our state back.
If we're going to move forward as a state, we're going to have to lose our backwards thinking. Instead of thinking small, we need to start thinking large! It's as simple as that.

[okcpulse]

In Conroe/The Woodlands, TX near Houston, where my wife and I am moving next year, there are plenty of religious people. In fact, the liquor laws in Texas are chaotic at best. Sure, you can buy wine and strong cold beer at a grocery store, but what the heck is it with Texas and wet/dry precincts in a county that is parts-dry. Or dry counties for that matter. In Texas, dry counties or precincts cannot sell ANY alcohol. No beer, no wine, no liquor... period. Especially in Dallas. In Dallas, a grocery story on one side of the street sells beer and wine. Across the street, another grocery store can't sell alcohol. You call that forward thinking? I call that a pain in the ***.

But, I do agree with you, Patrick, regarding high paying jobs. That is absolutely what it will take. When I hopefully return to OKC in the future, I hope I can contribute to that.

[Midtowner]

The adult campus idea is fine.

What we really need in Bricktown is a casino (or several). Indian gaming has proven that the "slippery slope" that many groups thought would come to exist where the Oklahoma family was destroyed was a falsehood. In fact, in the internet age, we all have casinos on our home PC's if we want to connected to some bank in the Carribean. So why not just legalize it? Unintended consequences? Look at Vegas and the growth they've experienced! If nothing else, some kind of limited opening of Casinos in bricktown. Let the city manage them. That could be huge.

I never got the Christian organizations who objected to this based on their religion. Where in the Bible does it say that gambling is wrong?

[Patrick]

Hey Midtowner. I agree with you. Being a Christian myself, in fact a Southern Baptist, I can try to explain their point.

It actually doesn't mention anything in the Bible about gambling. The Baptist's opposition to gambling comes more from the type of people it targets. They claim casino gambling is a regressive tax that targets poorer people. To some extent that's true, although if you've been to Vagas you'll know that there are probably just as many wealthy people there than poor people. I think the Baptists look more at the moral costs of gambling....mostly the lives it destroys (by spouses that go out and compulsively gamble their entire paycheck away at the expense of children). They look at the addiction associated with the games. I don't deny that. It exists, but to some extent it probably still exists even with some forms of casino gambling being illegal.
They also claim that it brings more crime, something I entirely disagree with.

Anyways, I'm not agreeing with all of those stances (in fact I disagree with some of them), just merely trying to present their side of the story.

I look at this similar to how I look at alcohol. Back in the day, the Baptist church was successful at getting prohibition passed. Prohibition, in my opinion, actually made things worse. People were still getting alcohol, only they were doing it illegally and it wasn't regulated. Well, the government realized that and finally reveresed prohibition.
I think gambling is very similar. Even though some forms of gambling don't exist legally in the state, they still occur to some extent. And if people don't gamble here, there's plenty of Okies going to Tunica and Vegas. We as a state are losing lots of money to surrounding states. We could be capitalizing on this money. Compulsive gamblers are going to get into trouble whether gambling is legal or not. If they don't blow their money on slot machines, they'll blow it by betting on the game on Saturday.

Instead of pressing so hard to block gambling in this state, we need to educate people about the possible negative effects of gambling. And we need to offer support groups for those that may have an addiction. Similar to what we currently do with alcohol.