Adrian Peterson indicted in child injury case

[Pete]

To demonstrate how the thinking on all this has shifted, but clearly not enough...

When I was at Hefner Jr. High in the early 70's, "paddlings" were extremely common, usually by the assistant principal or a particularly macho male teacher or coach who was almost too happy to volunteer.

At the time, Hefner was the largest junior high in the state and PC schools were considered the best in Oklahoma.

In the 8th grade (would have been around 13 years old) I had a history teacher named Mr. Thurman who was easily 300 pounds. And he was one of the corporal discipline specialists that other teachers would send their misbehaving students to so he could beat them with the menacing paddle (with holes drilled to increase velocity!) that hung prominently in his classroom. Many, many times there would be a knock on our door and Mr. Thurman would stop class so he could step out into the hall and beat a child that he outweighed by 200 pounds with a heavy piece of wood. The sound and cries were horrifying -- and were meant to be.

One day we had a substitute teacher in this particular class and when Mr. Thurman returned he told us that his replacement had taken names of everyone who talked; turned out that literally every kid in the room was on the list. The girls got detention, the boys all got a 'lick'.

I'm sure he didn't hit me as hard as he hit others in other circumstances and he only hit me once, but it hurt like a mother goose. And I had a bad welt which turned to a bruise or my arse for more than a week. Of course it did! I was a skinny little kid who probably didn't even weigh a hundred pounds.


(Also, I had gym all three years at Hefner and we had one big communal locker room and shower and I remember lots of boys showing off their "lick scars" with a certain degree of pride.)

This was all par for the course back then; a 300 pound man beating pre-teens with a piece of lumber. Happened virtually every day at that school.

Finally, someone wised up and put a stop to it.

When I tell one of my younger friends about this, it's hard to believe myself. It sounds completely insane. And of course it was completely insane but it was just the continuation of something that had always been done, without much consideration.


And now that I think about it, there were never any licks when I got to high school. I'm sure they knew that the students 1) would not put up with it and/or 2) would likely retaliate. In other words, we'll beat them until they are big and strong enough to stand up for themselves. Makes the whole thing that much more perverse.


One more thing... I just helped organize our 35-year high school reunion and for the first time we used Facebook quite a bit to share memories from our school days. About half of us went to Hefner (the other half went to a much less strict Central Jr. High) and even though the group was mainly about high school, there were several threads about Hefner and this paddling thing. Here were all these people in their 50's sharing traumatic experiences like a support group. So please don't tell me these things don't have a long-lasting effect, especially when society tells you, basically, to shut up and take your medicine.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

To demonstrate how the thinking on all this has shifted, but clearly not enough...

When I was at Hefner Jr. High in the early 70's, "paddlings" were extremely common, usually by the assistant principal or a particularly macho male teacher or coach who was almost too happy to volunteer.

At the time, Hefner was the largest junior high in the state and PC schools were considered the best in Oklahoma.

In the 8th grade (would have been around 13 years old) I had a history teacher named Mr. Thurman who was easily 300 pounds. And he was one of the corporal discipline specialists that other teachers would send their misbehaving students to so he could beat them with the menacing paddle (with holes drilled to increase velocity!) that hung prominently in his classroom. Many, many times there would be a knock on our door and Mr. Thurman would stop class so he could step out into the hall and beat a child that he outweighed by 200 pounds with a heavy piece of wood. The sound and cries were horrifying -- and were meant to be.

One day we had a substitute teacher in this particular class and when Mr. Thurman returned he told us that his replacement had taken names of everyone who talked; turned out that literally every kid in the room was on the list. The girls got detention, the boys are got a 'lick'.

I'm sure he didn't hit me as hard as he hit others in other circumstances and he only hit me once, but it hurt like a mother goose. And I had a bad welt which turned to a bruise or my arse for more than a week.

(Also, I had gym all three years at Hefner and we had one big communal locker room and shower and I remember lots of boys showing off their "lick scars" with a certain degree of pride.)

This was all par for the course back then; a 300 pound man beating pre-teens with a piece of lumber. Happened virtually every day at that school.

Finally, someone wised up and put a stop to it.

When I tell one of my younger friends about this, it's hard to believe myself. It sounds completely insane. And of course it was completely insane but it just the continuation of something that had always been done, without much consideration.


And now that I think about it, there were never any licks when I got to high school. I'm sure they knew that the students 1) would not put up with it and/or 2) would likely retaliate. In other words, we'll beat them until they are big and strong enough to stand up for themselves. Makes the whole thing that much more perverse.

I got swats at school and switches, swats, and belts at home (and then some). And yeah...It stopped when the kids got bigger. My dad sure stopped when I got bigger than him.

I can't imagine beating my kids. I can't fathom it.

[PennyQuilts]

In no particular order - why the hell are they putting those pictures on the internet? They are horrible and that is a question for the family, police, the doctor and social services. Using that child to drum up public outrage is as wrong as posting pictures of rape victims. That is just outrage porn. This child has been abused, now he is being exploited - maybe by his mom, dunno. But it isn't right.

Next, IMO, that is clearly abuse since it resulted in injury. Most states let parents spank or switch short of an injury but that is where they cross the line. Yeah, most of us old timers got a bruise or something at one point or another and, yes, it didn't kill us but it's just poor disciplining. A parent that injures a child while disciplining messed up. No excuses.

Finally, as a guardian ad litem, short of other facts not known, this would have been considered an "excessive discipline" case. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred you have a parent who loves their child, lost it and just messed up. They aren't demons or crazies, most of the time. Most of the time they had good reason to discipline but went overboard. They are horrified, remorseful and embarassed. As someone mentioned, toss in an ex and it just goes toxic. The remedy for these sorts of cases nearly all the time are anger management, Parenting classes and perhaps counseling if it is stress related. We'd get a protective order in place to stop further corporal punishment, parenting classes, counseling, etc. and drop it once the parent had completed classes, counseling, etc.

Cases like this are a dime a dozen and a family tragedy. They are also often the easiest situations to turn around because you are usually dealing with a parent who cares. Give me an excessive disciple case, hard as it is to look at, over a neglect case nearly anytime. One of the few things the courts often do well. Turning this into something somehow unique to the NFL, and splashing pictures of this baby on the internet is making a bad situation worse.

Note, an excessive discipline case is NOT the same thing as just a mean SOB who abuses their kids, physically, emotionally or sexually.

[Swake]

In no particular order - why the hell are they putting those pictures on the internet? They are horrible and that is a question for the family, police, the doctor and social services. Using that child to drum up public outrage is as wrong as posting pictures of rape victims. That is just outrage porn. This child has been abused, now he is being exploited - maybe by his mom, dunno. But it isn't right.

Next, IMO, that is clearly abuse since it resulted in injury. Most states let parents spank or switch short of an injury but that is where they cross the line. Yeah, most of us old timers got a bruise or something at one point or another and, yes, it didn't kill us but it's just poor disciplining. A parent that injures a child while disciplining messed up. No excuses.

Finally, as a guardian ad litem, short of other facts not known, this would have been considered an "excessive discipline" case. Ninety-nine times out of a hundred you have a parent who loves their child, lost it and just messed up. They aren't demons or crazies, most of the time. Most of the time they had good reason to discipline but went overboard. They are horrified, remorseful and embarassed. As someone mentioned, toss in an ex and it just goes toxic. The remedy for these sorts of cases nearly all the time are anger management, Parenting classes and perhaps counseling if it is stress related. We'd get a protective order in place to stop further corporal punishment, parenting classes, counseling, etc. and drop it once the parent had completed classes, counseling, etc.

Cases like this are a dime a dozen and a family tragedy. They are also often the easiest situations to turn around because you are usually dealing with a parent who cares. Give me an excessive disciple case, hard as it is to look at, over a neglect case nearly anytime. One of the few things the courts often do well. Turning this into something somehow unique to the NFL, and splashing pictures of this baby on the internet is making a bad situation worse.

Note, an excessive discipline case is NOT the same thing as just a mean SOB who abuses their kids, physically, emotionally or sexually.

I’m ok with the pictures. I actually support them. They don't give the name of child or show his face.

My mother worked DHS for years, she ran child abuse investigation units in two different counties. She dealt with many dead kids that never made the news because of “privacy” rules at DHS. That has to change. We have an epidemic going on that no one pays enough attention to because it happens out of sight. We need more photos of child abuse in the news, to shock and shame the pubic into action.

This is a four year old boy with multiple wealts that drew blood and defensive wounds. This is not discipline, this is abuse. Adrian Peterson deserves jail.

[betts]

I do not think what Adrian Peterson did was right. But, I am absolutely certain parents who have inflicted comparable injuries on their children in this state and Texas do not normally spend time in jail. Celebrities should be treated neither better nor worse than anyone else. Parenting classes, supervised time with the child, modeling of proper behavior are more effective than prison for parents who have inflicted injuries of this magnitude. I completely agree with PennyQuilts.

[Midtowner]

What is perhaps the most egregious here is that Peterson is the non-custodial parent. He has no say in how the child is disciplined. For the custodial parent to receive her child back in that state his horrifying.

[Pete]

The really sad and telling thing is that AD sincerely thought he was doing the right thing. He was very forthcoming with his child's mother and the authorities and seemed to be legitimately surprised there has been such a big fuss.

He even said something to the effect of "it's how I was raised myself".

This way of thinking needs to be challenged on a national level. On the OU message boards I would say 75% of the people have said the same thing: "I got a switching when I was a kid." And then most go on to say they've done similar things to their own children.

Why on earth has this been passed on from generation to generation without any critical thought?

I know there are underlying psychological reasons -- such as men in particular feeling this sort of things toughens kids up and teaches them right from wrong -- but it's astounding that in this day and age we are still beating children with tree branches and even more astounding that it's pretty much socially acceptable.

Having more and more of this type of thing reported with the authorities getting involved is probably the only way this will change in a significant way.

[turnpup]

A surprisingly large number of our small, rural school districts in Oklahoma still utilize corporal punishment. And guess what? It almost always results in legal trouble. Regardless of one's philosophical stance on the issue, it's truly a no-win situation for the schools. Yet they still do it. And it generates lots of attorney fees.

[Pete]

Yes, there was an article in the Oklahoman last year that said 10% of school districts in the state still allow corporal punishment.

There was even a recent bill that sought to loosen the laws, which currently allow only administrators to administer a spanking. It didn't get very far.

There are only 19 states that allow spanking in schools under any circumstances and Oklahoma is one of them.

[turnpup]

I just don't get it. Spanking your own kid is sketchy enough (I spanked a few times, and it truly did not work for my particular kid...she just panicked and freaked out and it did nothing to address the central issue...YMMV), but the thought of spanking someone else's kid is, well, just fraught with head-scratching.

Pete, when I was growing up, we, too, had a guy who was the "enforcer" of the punishment. He was the vice-principal at the middle school. A short, stocky, muscular man who would get very red in the face when he was irritated. Big bully-type boys who scared everyone silly would come back from his office openly crying after a paddling. Nicest guy in the world, by the way, but you didn't want to upset him.

Times were way different then. Now, parents question EVERYTHING that's done in the public schools—almost to a fault. Gone are the days when the parents and teachers/administrators generally agreed on what was best for the kids and worked together to accomplish their goals. My experience in working with public schools for the past 15+ years is that nowadays, especially when it comes to disciplinary issues, parents side with the kid the majority of the time and see the school district as mistaken, egregious or even the enemy.

No matter who is right or wrong in these cases, it's simply mind-numbing in today's climate to see schools take such a huge risk by the continued use of corporal punishment. I try my best to advise them to stay away from it, but many of them take a hard stance on its continued use.

[Jersey Boss]

To demonstrate how the thinking on all this has shifted, but clearly not enough...

When I was at Hefner Jr. High in the early 70's, "paddlings" were extremely common, usually by the assistant principal or a particularly macho male teacher or coach who was almost too happy to volunteer.

At the time, Hefner was the largest junior high in the state and PC schools were considered the best in Oklahoma.

In the 8th grade (would have been around 13 years old) I had a history teacher named Mr. Thurman who was easily 300 pounds. And he was one of the corporal discipline specialists that other teachers would send their misbehaving students to so he could beat them with the menacing paddle (with holes drilled to increase velocity!) that hung prominently in his classroom. Many, many times there would be a knock on our door and Mr. Thurman would stop class so he could step out into the hall and beat a child that he outweighed by 200 pounds with a heavy piece of wood. The sound and cries were horrifying -- and were meant to be.

One day we had a substitute teacher in this particular class and when Mr. Thurman returned he told us that his replacement had taken names of everyone who talked; turned out that literally every kid in the room was on the list. The girls got detention, the boys all got a 'lick'.

I'm sure he didn't hit me as hard as he hit others in other circumstances and he only hit me once, but it hurt like a mother goose. And I had a bad welt which turned to a bruise or my arse for more than a week. Of course it did! I was a skinny little kid who probably didn't even weigh a hundred pounds.


(Also, I had gym all three years at Hefner and we had one big communal locker room and shower and I remember lots of boys showing off their "lick scars" with a certain degree of pride.)

This was all par for the course back then; a 300 pound man beating pre-teens with a piece of lumber. Happened virtually every day at that school.

Finally, someone wised up and put a stop to it.

When I tell one of my younger friends about this, it's hard to believe myself. It sounds completely insane. And of course it was completely insane but it was just the continuation of something that had always been done, without much consideration.


And now that I think about it, there were never any licks when I got to high school. I'm sure they knew that the students 1) would not put up with it and/or 2) would likely retaliate. In other words, we'll beat them until they are big and strong enough to stand up for themselves. Makes the whole thing that much more perverse.


One more thing... I just helped organize our 35-year high school reunion and for the first time we used Facebook quite a bit to share memories from our school days. About half of us went to Hefner (the other half went to a much less strict Central Jr. High) and even though the group was mainly about high school, there were several threads about Hefner and this paddling thing. Here were all these people in their 50's sharing traumatic experiences like a support group. So please don't tell me these things don't have a long-lasting effect, especially when society tells you, basically, to shut up and take your medicine.

Reading your post and hearing so many stories about it after moving here is really a head scratcher. Corporal punishment was never a subject that was discussed in my circle of friends as there was no reference for it. CP was abolished in NJ in the 19th century and by all indicators the educational process there was none the worse for the ban. Yeah you read these stories of "when I was a kid.....". So to those people I ask , Do you let your kid stand up in the front seat when you drive? Do you let your kids get on their bike and disappear for 10 hours at a time in the summer? Point being, there were lots of ways kids were treated and supervised differently 50 years ago, its time to admit that evidence shows this is a loser.

[Pete]

Corporal punishment is much more common in the southern states -- more part of the culture for some reason.

I know California is considered crazy liberal but you literally never see a parent spank their children here, and although I'm sure it happens, no one ever discusses it openly.

The culture here is that it is socially unacceptable and considering that many move here from elsewhere, it shows the power of social influence. The exact opposite forces seem to be at work in Oklahoma and Texas.

[hoya]

My grandma hit me with a switch once. That was the only time she ever had to do it. I remember it leaving marks like those in the picture. I put my hand back behind me to stop the blows, it left a mark on my hand. Switches hurt like a son of a bitch. I have no doubt in my mind that when Adrian Peterson was growing up, he got hit with a switch that left similar marks. If you want to call it child abuse, then okay, but then virtually every person who has ever used a switch was guilty of child abuse. It always leaves marks like that.

I believe corporal punishment has its place. It has to be used carefully though.

[Laramie]

Such an unfortunate incident for Adrian Peterson. I'm sure his intentions were to correct his son's inappropriate behavior. Sometimes these athletes don't realize their own strength.

My mom, taught me to:

1. Never discipline a child when you are angry.
2. Only resort to corporal punishment when it involves the child's safety.
3. If you have to get physical; only get the meaty parts (buttocks).
4. Once they reach 13, never put your hands on a child.

You don't have to apply force when you hit a child, the fact that they are being disciplined is enough. Fortunately, I only had to use corporal punishment with one of my children, one girl and two boys (She was the oldest).

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[Swake]

Such an unfortunate incident for Adrian Peterson. I'm sure his intentions were to correct his son's inappropriate behavior. Sometimes these athletes don't realize their own strength.

My mom, taught me to:

1. Never discipline a child when you are angry.
2. Only resort to corporal punishment when it involves the child's safety.
3. If you have to get physical; only get the meaty parts (buttocks).
4. Once they reach 13, never put your hands on a child.

You don't have to apply force when you hit a child, the fact that they are being disciplined is enough. Fortunately, I only had to use corporal punishment with one of my children, one girl and two boys (She was the oldest).

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

You feel bad for Peterson? Not the FOUR year old boy that required medical attention?

[Pete]

I'm not defending AD but good intentions do matter in the eyes of the law and otherwise.

Also, there is a very strong culture in certain parts of the country where these types of whoopin's are completely acceptable.

Unfortunately for him, this situation will be used as an example. But it often takes a high profile case to call the public's attention to an important issue.

It also comes with the territory when you reap the benefits of being paid millions for performing in the public eye.

[okclee]

I would always get the "this is going to hurt me worse than it will hurt you" speech by my parents. If I only had twitter and a camera back then, I could have put my parents away for good, oh and grandma too.

Whatever happens with AD, this has really brought about good discussion about raising kids. It's also brought back many memories as to how I was punished with switches, belts, rulers, etc.

Wasn't this case already dismissed once and now it's being brought back for a 2nd grand jury that saw it differently?
It seems like the Ray Rice situation may have had an effect on the second grand jury decision.

[Pete]

Imagine if there was a video of this incident.

Good grief, the sight of a huge professional football player beating a naked 4 year-old with a tree branch is almost too awful to visualize.

But this sort of thing happens all the time and just like with AD, the parent believes they are doing the the right thing.

[okclee]

Imagine if there was a video of this incident.

Good grief, the site of a huge professional football player beating a naked 4 year-old with a tree branch is almost too awful to visualize.

But this sort of thing happens all the time and just like with AD, the parent things they are doing the the right thing.

Any parent disciplining their child on video or with pictures could be awful to watch or see, verbal or physical.

True story, last week I was google searching how to punish a 4 year old boy. I have one and I was at the point that none of the "new parenting" techniques were working. I've raised a few other boys too and the 4 year mark can be very challenging.

I won't say what I did because in today's society rubbing your dogs nose in the pee carpet stain is animal abuse. And no I did not do that to my son.

[hoya]

You can discipline a child without using your full strength. Just because a football player is big doesn't mean he's using any more force than grandma did.

[Pete]

I won't say what I did because in today's society rubbing your dogs nose in the pee carpet stain is animal abuse. And no I did not do that to my son.

I don't know about animal abuse, but it absolutely doesn't work, and anyone who takes even a few minutes to think and read about it would understand that. Yet, I have smart, educated friends who still do this.

It's a great metaphor for the much more important issue of disciplining a child.

[PennyQuilts]

The really sad and telling thing is that AD sincerely thought he was doing the right thing. He was very forthcoming with his child's mother and the authorities and seemed to be legitimately surprised there has been such a big fuss.

He even said something to the effect of "it's how I was raised myself".

This way of thinking needs to be challenged on a national level. On the OU message boards I would say 75% of the people have said the same thing: "I got a switching when I was a kid." And then most go on to say they've done similar things to their own children.

Why on earth has this been passed on from generation to generation without any critical thought?

I know there are underlying psychological reasons -- such as men in particular feeling this sort of things toughens kids up and teaches them right from wrong -- but it's astounding that in this day and age we are still beating children with tree branches and even more astounding that it's pretty much socially acceptable.

Having more and more of this type of thing reported with the authorities getting involved is probably the only way this will change in a significant way.

Discipline methods other than corporal punishment work well but there are tradeoffs. For things like "time out" to work, it takes a caregiver with an mature/even temperament, it requires consistency, it often falls apart when the parent lacks control of an environment (for example, when they are shopping or otherwise in public). If a child is too young to reason with/tired/excited/exhausted, there are few methods to control them, civilize them, and keep them safe, especially away from home. Children old enough to want a game, gadget or privilege can often be reasoned with but plenty of children are simply too imature or unstable for this to mean anything. Toss in a caregiver who is untalented at parenting/inconsistent/impaired, etc., and you often end up with a child who is practically feral, even if the other parent is "good" at it. I personally believe time out is better but for young/exhausted/immature/untalented parents, I think a swat on the butt to keep them from running in the street of behaving like savages is far preferable than letting them run wild - which we see all the time. Better to just take a child home if they can't behave but what we see are parents who just give up. That's not parenting. That is training their children to be unruly. Parenting is hard. "Good" parents don't discipline part time/when it is easy. That doesn't mean you beat the child but it does mean you have a responsibility to teach them to behave. Most of us are pretty understanding and tolerant of how tough it is but there is no excuse to allow a child to be a brat.

[Urbanized]

AD posted this to his Twitter account:

[PennyQuilts]

AD's comments about loving his son, learning better ways and feeling bad about it are very typical of most of my excessive discipline cases. Some people just don't know a better way but nearly all of them would tell me, later, that they learned a lot from parenting classes and were glad they took them. Even the ones furious that they were questioned. IMO, all parents should take age appropriate parenting classes to get ideas.

[Jersey Boss]

Discipline methods other than corporal punishment work well but there are tradeoffs. For things like "time out" to work, it takes a caregiver with an mature/even temperament, it requires consistency, it often falls apart when the parent lacks control of an environment (for example, when they are shopping or otherwise in public). If a child is too young to reason with/tired/excited/exhausted, there are few methods to control them, civilize the, and keep the, safe, especially away from home. Children old enough to want a game, gadget or privilege can often be reasoned with but plenty of children are simply too imature or unstable for this to mean anything. Toss in a caregiver who is untalented at parenting/inconsistent/impaired, etc., and you often end up with a child who is practically feral, even if the other parent is "good" at it. I personally believe time out is better but for young/exhausted/immature/untalented parents, I think a swat on the butt to keep them from running in the street of behaving like savages is far preferable than letting them run wild - which we see all the time. Better to just take a child home if they can't behave but what we see are parents who just give up. That's not parenting. That is training their children to be unruly. Parenting is hard. "Good" parents don't discipline part time/when it is easy. That doesn't mean you beat the child but it does mean you have a responsibility to teach them to behave. Most of us are pretty understanding and tolerant of how tough it is but there is no excuse to allow a child to be a brat.

Would you not agree that for CP to be administered it also calls for a caregiver to have a mature and even temperament? If a child is taken to a store and the child is to tired or exhausted to reason with, might it call for the caregiver to leave the facility altogether and just go home? While I do not sanction letting a child run wild, I certainly do not sanction spanking a tired child for the convenience of shopping now, rather than later.