Please read: Why I am hard on OKC

[Plutonic Panda]

Keep in mind the comment about McVeigh being one of the most evil people was in direct response to someone actually claiming mcveigh had won because conservative Oklahoma is one of the most toxic places, blah, blah. If someone was around when he did that, they might well believe he was one of the most evil. I don't think people can really know but in my book, blowing up babies puts him the race - the only difference is in the numbers. To suggest people, now, share mcveigh's mindset prompts people to point out that not only do they not share his views, they think he was evil.

I agree. He did a horrible thing and I am no way trying to say he was justified in doing it.

That is really dumb though, to say Tim McVeigh won. He only wins if you would've let him. In my view, he went down in the book of losers. We prevailed, we rebuilt, and I honestly think we became a better city because of it. It actually gave us national recognition and we built a wonderful, world-class memorial honoring those who lost their lives in the blast.

If tAlan CB think he won, than that is his problem. He apparently failed to see how we came together during a time of crisis and rose above the ashes. To me, to suggest our politics are the way they are because of a guy who blew up a building, tells me whoever thinks that, has officially bought a ticket to board the all out crazy train.

[Celebrator]

Well, one thing you have seen for sure since your original post went up last night, is that the people here are pretty hard to beat. You have had so many reach out and offer a friendly word or some advice on this very thread-- hat right there should count for something as to what makes this place special. I see it everyday and am constantly amazed at the kindness and caring of people in Oklahoma. Start with gratitude and it will take you far.

[Teo9969]

Hey man, if nothing else, this thread has moved you from the "#1 hated poster" to the #2…right behind TAlan CB

Seriously, I don't think you need to apologize to us for your posting. In reality, the person it affects the most is you. I think the frustration you see people show you is not so much a dislike of you but more disliking that your enjoyment is being robbed by all the negative posts. It's hard to watch people struggle with something when you're not…

At any rate, Cheers to choosing to find ways to enjoy things that are less than perfect!!

[soonerguru]

bchris,

I have occasionally given you a hard time, but I've always liked you. Not a blind booster here, but maybe because I'm a big older it's easier for me to have perspective. OKC is improving steadily, and we are fortunate to have a site like this one to air public issues that formerly were swept under the rug in a back room. You bring many good ideas, and your perspective is welcomed. We just try to reel you in when you get a little hyperbolic in your negativity. Keep perspective.

[Jim Kyle]

That is really dumb though, to say Tim McVeigh won. He only wins if you would've let him. In my view, he went down in the book of losers. We prevailed, we rebuilt, and I honestly think we became a better city because of it. It actually gave us national recognition and we built a wonderful, world-class memorial honoring those who lost their lives in the blast.

I think you are both correct, contradictory as that must sound. I believe that McVeigh considered himself to be a true defender of our Constitution, and that he was horribly mistaken in that belief and terribly wrong in the tactic he chose to "defend the constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic." Specifically, I think he saw his action as a hammer blow against the forces that had taken his nation away from the path of righteousness, and consequently as an act in defense of our heritage.

Of course, he was wrong in that belief, and he chose a massively inapprooriate method by which to act.

However he didn't specifically choose to massacre 19 babies; he didn't even do enough research to realize that the day care area would take much of the blast, or that the rest would be concentrated on the Social Security offices where civilians would be. He saw only that it was "The Federal Building" and he was striking a blow at the Federal government.

The rest, of course, he considered to be collateral damage -- a magnificently sanitized term lifted directly from DOD reports of some of our most honorable conflicts abroad. He didn't even choose to use Stalin's phrase about omelets and breaking eggs, which would have been equally appropriate.

He obviously failed in his purpose, and if anything, strengthened the Federal Government (at least temporarily) rather than damaging it in any way. Security measures stiffened, access to government offices became more restricted, and we became much less free to express opposition to The Powers That Be. Political Correctness became the order of the day.

So how can I believe that he won in any sense of the word? To put it simply, he made it obvious that we had strayed far, far indeed from the path envisioned by our Founding Fathers -- who were, themselves, rabid terrorists in the view of George III and company. He led enough people to believe that our government was no longer "by the people and for the people" to make possible the rise of the far right to positions of enough power to bring that government to a gridlock condition.

Many years ago I studied to become a professional writer under the tutelage of a man who was an avid historian and philosopher in addition to having published more than 800 short stories. Foster told me several times that he expected the nation to explode into a Second Civil War by the 1990s -- not between the North and the South, but between the Haves and the Have-Nots. Thankfully, he was wrong -- at least, about the timing. It remains to be seen whether his prediction ever comes true. The current political conflict is labelled as being between Liberals and Conservatives -- but both sides have become so polarized that neither a liberal nor a conservative from a hundred years ago would recognize either as they flounder toward no expressed common goal, and our government falls into disarray.

Bottom line: if Tim McVeigh sought to bring down the U.S. Government, he did go a significant way toward achieving his goal. It's up to us who feel that the return to the Constitution can be achieved by less violent means to see that his goal is never reached.

To get back to the thread topic after this aside, and address BChris -- We're not all blind boosters, nor do the vast majority of those who follow this (or any other) forum post a lot. For every poster, there are probably 10 or 12 silent lurkers. And for them as well as for the rest of us, your comments help us to view our city and our attitudes much more clearly that we could without your viewpoint. Keep it up. And thank you for a great explanation of your feelings. I suspect that more of us ought to do the same thing, and become more fully dimensioned individuals as opposed to anonymous message posters...

[TAlan CB]

Ha. Give me a break. You do know why he did that, right? Now I am not justifying him killing the innocent people, he should've just gone after the people directly involved and he wouldn't have been so hated, but make no mistake, he is not "one of the most evil people to ever live". You need to brush up on your history if you think that.

Quite right, McVeigh was not evil, he was anti-government, narrow-minded, self-righteous ( sound a little like the current legislature?), desensitized by war, ... but mostly he was a coward.

Liberals can be just as self-righteous in their beliefs as conservatives - extremism is the problem. To paint with a large brush any group of people - or the way they believe is naive. When I spoke of a toxic environment in Oklahoma I was speaking in the political arena, not the entire population. My immediate family still lives there and they are all conservative - but they will be the first tell you that it has gone too far. None the less, I still enjoy going to football games at my alma maters - both OSU and OU. Your very statement("gopokes") "I'll take Oklahoma's version of tolerance way before the liberals." is precisely what I am talking about.

I understand feelings about the bombing, I was 3 blocks away when it went off - my sister was a nurse on duty in the emergency room many of the victims were taken to - a good friend was in the building and her emotional statement about the experience is on the walls of the capital building. That is why it is so hard to hear some of the same things he believed and stated come out of the mouths of OKlahoma leaders....

[zookeeper]

Quite right, McVeigh was not evil, he was anti-government, narrow-minded, self-righteous ( sound a little like the current legislature?), desensitized by war, ... but mostly he was a coward.

Liberals can be just as self-righteous in their beliefs as conservatives - extremism is the problem. To paint with a large brush any group of people - or the way they believe is naive. When I spoke of a toxic environment in Oklahoma I was speaking in the political arena, not the entire population. My immediate family still lives there and they are all conservative - but they will be the first tell you that it has gone too far. None the less, I still enjoy going to football games at my alma maters - both OSU and OU. Your very statement("gopokes") "I'll take Oklahoma's version of tolerance way before the liberals." is precisely what I am talking about.

I understand feelings about the bombing, I was 3 blocks away when it went off - my sister was a nurse on duty in the emergency room many of the victims were taken to - a good friend was in the building and her emotional statement about the experience is on the walls of the capital building. That is why it is so hard to hear some of the same things he believed and stated come out of the mouths of OKlahoma leaders....

Actually, Oklahoma has always been extremely conservative. But to hear you say it's worse now? To imply it started with McVeigh? Oklahoma is as Oklahoma is. The only real liberal pockets are inside very small parts of Oklahoma City. The state as a whole has always been far, far right. (Since 1940 anyway.)

BChris: I'm so glad you posted what you did. I know I have gotten frustrated with you on several occasions, yet I've always thought it was good you were at least involved. Sometimes it was how you reasoned your arguments as much as anything that I had problems with. But it sounds like in your post that you need to shed much of the past and begin looking ahead. Sounds so simple, huh? I certainly know that it isn't. Accepting yourself and liking yourself and not beating yourself up could be life-changing for you, and I wish you the best of luck!

[TAlan CB]

bChris,

We all can get caught in the negative of any circumstance or place. I still brag about Oklahoma (avoiding politics less I get in trouble for having an opinion) despite what you may have read here. I was, at-first, disappointed by NC when I moved there from Dallas. But, I remembered what many others on this post have already advised, it is up to you. There is 'magic' in any land and place under the sun, and it is up to you to find it. Here is the magic of Oklahoma, the people are survivors - and as you have seen, they go on to thrive no matter what has happen to them. But there is also magic in the land - it is where the east meets the west, the south the north - both in land-forms and culture. The Witchita Mts and the Cimarron beneath the bluffs near the Alabaster Caverns. The Kiamichi and Skyline drives in the Southeast. The Salt Flats near Jet and Turner Falls in the south. The rolling hills and Tall Grass prairie near Bartlesville - and the Sky no matter where you are. Go to the lakes - you can travel on Lake Eufuala for a hundred miles from Gentry Creek landing to the dam and watch the water go from Red to deep blue beneath forested hills. Visit the Gilcrease and Philbrook Museums in Tulsa and discover that Oklahoma has two different kinds of big City. see Frank Loyd Wrights only tower in Bartlesville. But mostly, just get involved, do things, volunteer ... it gives you so much more than you give. When I travel to the NC shore on the outer banks - and now the Georgia Sea islands - I see all the wonder in the land, but I also look out to sea and in that moment I am home again because I see the sky.

[TAlan CB]

Actually, Oklahoma has always been extremely conservative. But to hear you say it's worse now? To imply it started with McVeigh? Oklahoma is as Oklahoma is. The only real liberal pockets are inside very small parts of Oklahoma City. The state as a whole has always been far, far right.

BChris: I'm so glad you posted what you did. I know I have gotten frustrated with you on several occasions, yet I've always thought it was good you were at least involved. Sometimes it was how you reasoned your arguments as much as anything that I had problems with. But it sounds like in your post that you need to shed much of the past and begin looking ahead. Sounds so simple, huh? I certainly know that it isn't. Accepting yourself and liking yourself and not beating yourself up could be life-changing for you, and I wish you the best of luck!

Oklahoma has always been conservative? Generally yes, But "far far right" - not even by a long shot. Please, read the state constitution - the longest, Most Socialistic Constitution (technically Populist - and consequently frequently changed) of any state - and most countries. My family has been in Oklahoma since before statehood - married into the Cherokees to get land. The stories I've heard - leading me to get a degree to teach history - have conservative values, but very liberal state politics all through them. Most of those (liberal politics) were from rural strongholds, the cities were where the conservatives lived. I've lived half that history, and times do change.

[zookeeper]

Oklahoma has always been conservative? Generally yes, But "far far right" - not even by a long shot. Please, read the state constitution - the longest, Most Socialistic Constitution (technically Populist - and consequently frequently changed) of any state - and most countries. My family has been in Oklahoma since before statehood - married into the Cherokees to get land. The stories I've heard - leading me to get a degree to teach history - have conservative values, but very liberal state politics all through them. Most of those (liberal politics) were from rural strongholds, the cities were where the conservatives lived. I've lived half that history, and times do change.

I was thinking 1940 on. I am fully aware of Oklahoma's populist and Socialist Party past. Socialist Oscar Ameringer did well in a run for Mayor of Oklahoma City, Debs won his highest percentage of the vote in Oklahoma than any other state in two of his runs for the presidency. But it dried up and fast.

The modern era shows no history at all of liberalism in the rural areas. Remember, Democrats were all there was until Henry Bellmon, I watched that, and they were as conservative on social issues, and most economic issues, than most Republicans today. The biggest influence on Oklahoma politics up until 1990, leaving out the current time so as to not debate that, was the Southern Baptists, without question.

Before you say, "Fred Harris," he was elected to the U.S. Senate running as a moderate. He went on to become one of the most progressive lawmakers in the history of the Senate. But that brought a crop of "SHED FRED" bumper stickers, polls showed him losing badly, so he chose to run for president instead. Twice. But before he left, he almost became Humphrey's running mate in '68 and served as Chairman of the Democratic Party. But he was hated back home here in Oklahoma, which was a shame, Fred Harris was a fighter.

In modern times, I believe Oklahoma has always been very far right. In my opinion, Jim Inhofe and Don Nickles were the two worst Senators in Oklahoma history and two of the worst the nation has ever had to put up with. To think Inhofe wants six more years is just disgusting. Another topic though...

[venture]

In modern times, I believe Oklahoma has always been very far right. In my opinion, Jim Inhofe and Don Nickles were the two worst Senators in Oklahoma history and two of the worst the nation has ever had to put up with. To think Inhofe wants six more years is just disgusting. Another topic though...

The guy is 79...he'll be 87 when this new term expires. At some point he needs to take queues from others and learn when to pass it on to another generation. He's just a selfish old man who will probably die of health issues or old age in office and then we get to do the special election crap again.

[venture]

BChris...

I appreciate your post. I've been tough on you in the past in the weather forms for the anxiety issues you have, and hope you find help with that. Don't lose hope or worry about what you post. I come from a home town in the rust belt that has a very negative populace with very little good to say about their own town. I would trade the temperament in a heart beat because that city has so much going for it, if only the energy was focused in the right direction. I do also understand that sometimes people can get a bit over the top and a bit too positive - but it's important to keep in mind that reality checks usually will greet them sooner or later. OKC has a lot of good going for it, but there are also some things that need changing - and will as a new generation takes over. I miss the water and large, tall trees in my backyard back "home"...but Oklahoma has a charm to it as well.

[bchris02]

Thanks for the responses everybody!

My current situation is a lot like yours. I will tell you I had no intentions of leaving OKC but I was in a job in where our management changed and I became so miserable over a 6 month period I actually gave myself an ulcer. I could have stayed and maybe found a new job there but I had an opportunity in Dallas that literally fell in my lap. I did and still do have deep reservations about relocating here but this new move has 100% been a positive for my career direction, not to mention no ulcers. So I embrace this area for what it is even though I know in the back of my head this is probably not were I want to permanently settle. In life you there will always be trade-offs but you have to prioritize what you want (in this case employment) and learn to compromise with what you can't have.

I can see how being forced to move back to where your parents live can give a bad attitude to the area.

Adaniel, your situation does sound very similar to mine. Within about four months back in early 2012, some policy changes at my job in Charlotte turned what was the best time of my life into a life so miserable and stressful I was getting nosebleeds and passing out at work. I was worried I would have had a stroke if I would have stayed in that job. While in January 2012 I never would have left Charlotte in a million years, by May of that year it was looking inevitable. This move has been 100% the best thing for me career wise.

It's interesting you feel that way about DFW though, a place that I see as vibrant and exciting and where I would probably move if I left OKC. I think it goes back to an inherent desire in some people to get out and experience new and different things after college. For me that was Charlotte, for you that was OKC.

I guess it is a matter of perspective. While there are things OKC is lacking that Charlotte has (and Dallas even moreso), the best of OKC is very accessible compared to a lot of larger cities.

Stop waiting for the world to come to your doorstep. Become a person that people enjoy being around and the world will notice.

Agree. This goes for anybody if you want a life change you have to go after it yourself. You can't wait for things to just happen. I have been bad about that. Thanks.

bChris,

We all can get caught in the negative of any circumstance or place. I still brag about Oklahoma (avoiding politics less I get in trouble for having an opinion) despite what you may have read here. I was, at-first, disappointed by NC when I moved there from Dallas. But, I remembered what many others on this post have already advised, it is up to you. There is 'magic' in any land and place under the sun, and it is up to you to find it. Here is the magic of Oklahoma, the people are survivors - and as you have seen, they go on to thrive no matter what has happen to them. But there is also magic in the land - it is where the east meets the west, the south the north - both in land-forms and culture. The Witchita Mts and the Cimarron beneath the bluffs near the Alabaster Caverns. The Kiamichi and Skyline drives in the Southeast. The Salt Flats near Jet and Turner Falls in the south. The rolling hills and Tall Grass prairie near Bartlesville - and the Sky no matter where you are. Go to the lakes - you can travel on Lake Eufuala for a hundred miles from Gentry Creek landing to the dam and watch the water go from Red to deep blue beneath forested hills. Visit the Gilcrease and Philbrook Museums in Tulsa and discover that Oklahoma has two different kinds of big City. see Frank Loyd Wrights only tower in Bartlesville. But mostly, just get involved, do things, volunteer ... it gives you so much more than you give. When I travel to the NC shore on the outer banks - and now the Georgia Sea islands - I see all the wonder in the land, but I also look out to sea and in that moment I am home again because I see the sky.

That's one thing I really like about Oklahoma. There are so many different climates/terrain type in a very short drive. Drive an hour and a half southwest of the city and you can be in a semi-arid environment. Go southeast and I can get a small taste of western North Carolina with its tall, majestic pines, mountains, and biodiversity.

[Bunty]

Actually, Oklahoma has always been extremely conservative. But to hear you say it's worse now? To imply it started with McVeigh? Oklahoma is as Oklahoma is. The only real liberal pockets are inside very small parts of Oklahoma City. The state as a whole has always been far, far right. (Since 1940 anyway.)

An interesting exception from being conservative was made in 1964 when Oklahoma voters did not pass Right to Work, while signaling the end to the Right to Work movement for the nation.