Texas Problems

[bchris02]

It just seems like the group think on this board believes that all the shortcomings Oklahoma might have comes from not being liberal enough. The coasts are liberal. The major U.S. cities are liberal. There should be some place that conservative people can live and call home and not have to hear how stupid and backward they are or be embarrased because of their views. I swear, I think some on here would like it if it were possible to make it illegal to be conservative.

I think what so many people have a problem with about Oklahoma lawmakers' brand of conservatism is its actually very oppressive against individual liberty. People can disagree over things like the budgets, taxes, or what services should or should not be funded by the government. Few people will leave the state over that. However, the radical quasi-religious social agenda of the state's GOP is divisive and ostracizing to anybody who may disagree and makes this state a nanny state in many ways. Until moving to Oklahoma I voted pretty reliably Republican. Chances are I still will for President but I will vote solid Democrat when it comes to state elections.

[dankrutka]

I know Texas and Oklahoma are probably more similar than they are different, but as far as liquor laws, road funding, being pro-development, etc.... Texas leads the way and is almost opposite of Oklahoma.

I live in Denton and I can't buy liquor in the county or buy a case of beer past midnight. I have to become a "member" of a bar just to have a beer. It's ridiculous and a hassle. When I was in St. Louis for a conference you couldn't get beer at gas stations or pharmacies. I was recently in Philly and you can't get beers at gas stations or pharmacies there. I was told you have to buy beer and liquor at separate, individual stores. Anyway, my point is, Oklahomans think their liquor laws are ridiculous, but that seems to be fairly universal. These are all anecdotal experiences so please feel free to add to it.

[soonerguru]

I think what so many people have a problem with about Oklahoma lawmakers' brand of conservatism is its actually very oppressive against individual liberty. People can disagree over things like the budgets, taxes, or what services should or should not be funded by the government. Few people will leave the state over that. However, the radical quasi-religious social agenda of the state's GOP is divisive and ostracizing to anybody who may disagree and makes this state a nanny state in many ways. Until moving to Oklahoma I voted pretty reliably Republican. Chances are I still will for President but I will vote solid Democrat when it comes to state elections.

I recently conversed with an official of the State Chamber of Commerce. He was utterly oblivious to how this crap is affecting our state's image. A lot of these folks are braindead morons who still think we can cut state income taxes and magically create jobs. Meanwhile, education is the bottom of the barrel in terms of their funding priorities. Half of our state is illiterate and poor, while we have gilded energy executives getting free handouts from the governor and legislature.

I tried to explain to him that people in the tech industry and the serious entrepreneurs will never consider moving anything to Oklahoma as long as the American Taliban is running things. He didn't think we had an image problem! (as I was reading about the latest Failin' execution disaster in the New York Times from my iPad).

OKC is being fueled by an oil boom and a minor cultural/urbanization boom. That's great. But it's not gonna last forever.

We really need to vote these fools out.

[soonerguru]

This could be our future in Oklahoma. Remember Sam Brownback crowing about Kansas' "great economy" and "low taxes?" Well, this genius and his accomplices in the Kansas leg just killed his state. It's hilarious the douche is trying to blame Obama for his own state fiscal policies. Total train wreck. They're down almost $.5 BILLION from last year's revenues. This is a total death spiral.

Kansas tax revenue off $92 million in April | Wichita Eagle

[bchris02]

I recently conversed with an official of the State Chamber of Commerce. He was utterly oblivious to how this crap is affecting our state's image. A lot of these folks are braindead morons who still think we can cut state income taxes and magically create jobs. Meanwhile, education is the bottom of the barrel in terms of their funding priorities. Half of our state is illiterate and poor, while we have gilded energy executives getting free handouts from the governor and legislature.

Some people in older generations are simply clueless to the worldview of the younger generation. It kind of reminds me of Mick Cornett originally wanting Bricktown to become a mini-Branson rather than the bar/entertainment district it has become. It's a great thing that didn't happen because if anybody has been to Branson recently you know it is dying off because its target market is dying off. You are also completely right about the tech industry and entreprenuers. They gravitate to Austin because although its a conservative state, Austin is a very liberal and live and let live city. The conservative principles are less-intrusive to an individual's lives than they are in Oklahoma. In Austin, I could by a cold beer at 11PM on a Sunday or a bottle of wine! Does OKC even have much of an LGBT community? If so, I don't know how they sit back and take being constantly demonized and scapegoated by the state government.

[Just the facts]

I live in Denton and I can't buy liquor in the county or buy a case of beer past midnight. I have to become a "member" of a bar just to have a beer. It's ridiculous and a hassle. When I was in St. Louis for a conference you couldn't get beer at gas stations or pharmacies. I was recently in Philly and you can't get beers at gas stations or pharmacies there. I was told you have to buy beer and liquor at separate, individual stores. Anyway, my point is, Oklahomans think their liquor laws are ridiculous, but that seems to be fairly universal. These are all anecdotal experiences so please feel free to add to it.

Oklahoma's liquor laws aren't as out of the main-stream as a lot of people think, or want others to believe. Now having said that, they could still be improved and the state needs to break-up the liquor distribution monopoly if for no other reason than it is the right thing to do.

[bchris02]

Oklahoma's liquor laws aren't as out of the main-stream as a lot of people think, or want others to believe. Now having said that, they could still be improved and the state needs to break-up the liquor distribution monopoly if for no other reason than it is the right thing to do.

It wouldn't take many changes to the current laws to make them less liberty-intrusive. Allow liquor stores to sell cold beer and allow them to stay open later - until at least 11PM and I will stop complaining about the liquor laws here. Sunday sales would also be nice but Oklahoma is hardly unique in disallowing them.

[KenRagsdale]

It is the Oklahoma retail liquor store owners' lobby dictating the 9 PM Monday through Saturday closing times. They prefer not to be open later due to security reasons. Cold beer sales in package stores is a quid pro quo with other retailers. Convenience stores and grocery stores don't offer liquor, wine, spirits and higher alcohol beer; retail package store owners don't sell groceries, gas or cold beer. That suits the package store owners just fine.

[traxx]

That interesting. You can all these numbers you want on it, but why does Texas have better highways then?

I don't know that they do. I've driven a lot of miles around both states in my lifetime and I don't recall ever thinking that there was a huge difference in road quality. Now that's just anecdotal evidence, but that's my experience. The only thing I can think of is that our winters are more harsh in Oklahoma. Our summers are pretty similar. Other than that, I don't know.

[traxx]

Some people in older generations are simply clueless to the worldview of the younger generation. It kind of reminds me of Mick Cornett originally wanting Bricktown to become a mini-Branson rather than the bar/entertainment district it has become. It's a great thing that didn't happen because if anybody has been to Branson recently you know it is dying off because its target market is dying off.

I think that idea was floated because Branson, at one time, was a successful destination. There have been a lot of ideas floated for Bricktown that it's good they didn't happen. Over the decades there was talk of putting in a Hard Rock because those were still popular at the time. It's good that didn't happen. There was talk about an ESPNZone once. It's good that didn't happen because it make Bricktown too much like other cities where you can go to an ESPNZone.

You are also completely right about the tech industry and entreprenuers. They gravitate to Austin because although its a conservative state, Austin is a very liberal and live and let live city. The conservative principles are less-intrusive to an individual's lives than they are in Oklahoma.

I read an article once about the tech industry in Austin. It may have been Texas Monthly. At one time, probably late 80s early 90s, Austin was struggling because they were too reliant on the energy sector. They made a concerted effort to try to win tech companies to Austin. Which at the time was unheard of. But it was an effort to diversify their dependancy away from solely relying on the energy sector. So a lot went into it, it wasn't just that tech companies said "Hey, Austin is a fairly liberal city. Let's move our business there."

And as far as conservative principles being less intrusive on an individual's life, it's a matter of perspective. If a conservative person were to move to California or Massachussetts, then they would feel that the liberal principles were intruding on their life. But the residents of those states, especially the liberal ones, probably think that their liberal government is pretty much perfect. It's different strokes for different folks. Oklahoma doesn't need a lot of liberals to move in and change its government and its ways in an effort to "fix" Oklahoma. Just like Massachussetts doesn't need a lot of conservatives to come in and fix their state. Some people like living in a city. That doesn't mean that everyone should have to live that way. Some like the suburbs and some like rural life. Different strokes.

Does OKC even have much of an LGBT community?

Does OKC need one? Is it a neccessity? If they choose to live somewhere than OKC that doesn't hurt OKC. OKC doesn't have to have one of eveything that another city might have. Maybe the more liberal folks think we need it to help OKlahoma's image but that just goes back to worrying too much about what others think of Oklahoma. I think some people are just trying too hard to make Oklahoma something it is not. The thing is, Texas has Austin, but for the most part Texas is just as conservative as Oklahoma and maybe more so. I've known a lot of Texans in my life and I know this to be true. But Texas doesn't worry about what the rest of the country thinks about it. And Texas gets away with it because of the enourmous economic power that it weilds. An Arkansas or New Mexico or Oklahoma is looked at a little more critically because the rest of the country likes to make fun of someone that they don't feel they have to listen to. But the country is forced to deal with Texas because of it's population size and the size of its economy.

[ou48A]

The missions of both OU & OSU is the advancement of the state and the lives of all of its people.

There are degree programs at both OU & OSU that on completion have very few desirable jobs in Oklahoma... As a result they are pretty much a big waste of state resources however small they are. In some cases the degree programs are duplicated at many of the various university’s in our state. Our states universitys really need to be better managed and shift more of their limited resources to degree programs that have respectable and needed jobs waiting on them, with a preference given to the jobs that Oklahoma employers need.

If our states university’s would be more willing and quicker to reform I have a gut feeling their state funding situation would improve too.

[ou48A]

I think some people are just trying too hard to make Oklahoma something it is not.

Yep... we shouldn't be to worried about small sectors of the population but instead concentrate on creating opportunity for all.
That starts by having a vibrant economy for all and not wasting our limited time and limited resources on social engineering for a select few. This is were a rising tide will lift all boats if we do it right.

[ou48A]

I read an article once about the tech industry in Austin. It may have been Texas Monthly. At one time, probably late 80s early 90s, Austin was struggling because they were too reliant on the energy sector. They made a concerted effort to try to win tech companies to Austin. Which at the time was unheard of. But it was an effort to diversify their dependancy away from solely relying on the energy sector. So a lot went into it,

The heath care industry that sprung up near the Oklahoma state capitol is a direct result of Oklahoma’s efforts to diversify its economy after oil & NG bust of the 80's... This is something that David Boren pushed very hard to help develop. Boren also pushed the development of the weather industry in Norman. The states quality of job act is also a result of the 80's bust.
Not that a new bust wouldn’t hurt, but as a result of the 80's bust most oil & NG company’s with a few notable exceptions have not become as exposed to a down turn.

[ou48A]

I don't know that they do. I've driven a lot of miles around both states in my lifetime and I don't recall ever thinking that there was a huge difference in road quality. Now that's just anecdotal evidence, but that's my experience. The only thing I can think of is that our winters are more harsh in Oklahoma. Our summers are pretty similar. Other than that, I don't know.

Its the rural roads & highways in the most isolated parts of each state is where the major differences in roads can best be seen.
There is a clear difference, with isolated areas of Texas being far better. I'm talking about places like Kermit, Wink, Happy and Gruver

Texas uses higher institutional construction standards for its roads from the very start....and the difference shows up years later.

[Plutonic Panda]

I live in Denton and I can't buy liquor in the county or buy a case of beer past midnight. I have to become a "member" of a bar just to have a beer. It's ridiculous and a hassle. When I was in St. Louis for a conference you couldn't get beer at gas stations or pharmacies. I was recently in Philly and you can't get beers at gas stations or pharmacies there. I was told you have to buy beer and liquor at separate, individual stores. Anyway, my point is, Oklahomans think their liquor laws are ridiculous, but that seems to be fairly universal. These are all anecdotal experiences so please feel free to add to it.

I understand about Denton; Richardson is the same way. At least you are able to buy liquor in the grocery stores in other places around the metro. I am very aware of dry counties in Texas.

[bluedogok]

Some people in older generations are simply clueless to the worldview of the younger generation. It kind of reminds me of Mick Cornett originally wanting Bricktown to become a mini-Branson rather than the bar/entertainment district it has become. It's a great thing that didn't happen because if anybody has been to Branson recently you know it is dying off because its target market is dying off. You are also completely right about the tech industry and entreprenuers. They gravitate to Austin because although its a conservative state, Austin is a very liberal and live and let live city. The conservative principles are less-intrusive to an individual's lives than they are in Oklahoma. In Austin, I could by a cold beer at 11PM on a Sunday or a bottle of wine! Does OKC even have much of an LGBT community? If so, I don't know how they sit back and take being constantly demonized and scapegoated by the state government.

You can't buy beer or wine at the grocery store in Austin (and the rest of Texas that is wet) before noon on Sunday.

Austin is "liberal" compared to the rest of Texas but then so is urban Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and a lot of the area around the Rio Grande Valley. Austin is not liberal compared to the coasts (or reputation) and the City of Austin keeps enacting regulations that restrict what you can and can't do much more than the suburban (and more conservative) counties around it. Suburban counties around the metro areas are where the conservatives live. When I moved to Austin in 2003 Texas was for the most part more conservative in state politics than Oklahoma, that did change as the Sally Kern types started getting elected but don't kid yourself, there are areas of Texas that are more conservative than Kern, it is just the legislature is larger and they have to cover a much larger constituency that it dilutes those types and the more extreme liberals and makes it somewhat harder for them to get elected. Austin also has a lot of of liberals but most are probably a bit more like most of the population, somewhat libertarian, a bit more socially liberal but fiscally conservative. The real problem is neither party at the state or federal level represents what most of the population feels.

Population based on 2010 Census
Oklahoma: 3,751,351
Texas: 25,145,561

Oklahoma Legislature Seats
House: 101
Senate: 48

Texas Legislature Seats
House: 150
Senate: 31

Oklahoma legislative district size by persons based on 2010 Census
House: 37,142
Senate: 78,153

Texas legislative district size by persons based on 2010 Census
House: 167,637
Senate: 811,147

[bluedogok]

I understand about Denton; Richardson is the same way. At least you are able to buy liquor in the grocery stores in other places around the metro. I am very aware of dry counties in Texas.

It was just recently that the Dallas area went fully wet instead of the wet/dry by voting district like it was when I lived there in the 90's. I remember going to Buckingham or the wet/dry line just south of Royal Lane on Greenville and having a Unicard for restaurants by my area (635/Forest Lane).

[bluedogok]

Its the rural roads & highways in the most isolated parts of each state is where the major differences in roads can best be seen.
There is a clear difference, with isolated areas of Texas being far better. I'm talking about places like Kermit, Wink, Happy and Gruver

Texas uses higher institutional construction standards for its roads from the very start....and the difference shows up years later.

Not anymore, they are chip sealing Central Texas with that crap and the counties are adopting some of their own standards for paving instead of following TxDOT standards. Many are letting the paving companies build crap, I saw plenty of road failures in the Hill Country including a 6 month old 500 foot section of asphalt on 290 washed off the base just east of I-10 out near Kerrville. Just like everywhere else, they are playing shell games with their money and shuffling of projects. Ben White/US-290 in Austin has been under construction since my wife moved there in 1988 and they have major issues at TxDOT including a $1.1 billion "accounting error" a few years ago and faced a Sunset Review.

In reference to the mega-highway planned for 635, they have been talking about that since 1992. Back then they unveiled a model of a 26 lane 635 from I-35 to US-75. They also floated a Texas Triangle high speed rail system connecting DFW, Austin/San Antonio, Houston and back to DFW. It was pretty much killed by the airlines based in Texas, Southwest, American and (then) Continental.

[progressiveboy]

I much rather have Texas problems than Oklahoma's set of their problems. Yes, DFW has a traffic problem with issues and it can get frustrating navigating the highways and streets. The driver's are pretty aggressive in DFW, however, my perception is DFW has a bright future and will continue to grow and prosper! Texas has a better image than Oklahoma. More friendly business environment, no taxes on groceries, no state income tax, better roads.

[Snowman]

... Texas has a better image than Oklahoma. ...

I have seen much comments about Texas than Oklahoma, though part of that is just a higher profile.

[bluedogok]

The tax burden on individuals are pretty similar if you own a house, our property taxes in Austin went up an average of $200-300 a year the nine years that I lived there. A house "valued" at $155,000 (that sold for $130,000) was $3,900 our last year there (2012). It doesn't matter that Texas does not have an income tax, all states are going to get "their money" somehow, some way, they just use different means and methods to get it. They also tend to fee you to death in Texas to make up for the lack of other taxes which wasn't the case when I lived in Dallas in the early 90's.

[Bunty]

I thought GE was considering Austin? Anyhow, Texas is experiencing insane growth, and if Oklahoma gets it sh*t together and allows ODOT to take out loans for huge highway projects, kick these morons out of office that are prohibiting smart growth, and design our infrastructure to handle future growth, we will experience the same growth.

Kicking out the morons won't work, if there are only more morons to replace them. Maybe that explains the problem. Morons have been replacing the morons.

[Bunty]

I live in Denton and I can't buy liquor in the county or buy a case of beer past midnight. I have to become a "member" of a bar just to have a beer. It's ridiculous and a hassle.

Is the Denton area ran by a bunch of Baptists?

[dankrutka]

I don't know that they do. I've driven a lot of miles around both states in my lifetime and I don't recall ever thinking that there was a huge difference in road quality. Now that's just anecdotal evidence, but that's my experience. The only thing I can think of is that our winters are more harsh in Oklahoma. Our summers are pretty similar. Other than that, I don't know.

That's another thing. Denton has the absolute worst roads I've ever encountered. It's unbelievable.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah, the roads in Denton are pretty bad.