U.S. Natural Gas Supplies

[stick47]

ONG does lay the base meter charges on thick, but the gas itself is quite cheap. Once you pay the hefty monthly service charge, run as much on the cheap NG as possible. This is why the HP water heater doesn't make economic sense for those on ONG. Neither do dual fuel heating systems for that matter.

I won't belabor the point too much but I'll disagree with you about the choice of NG over total electric. My bills in a house half the size of our current one were more when paying for NG and electric than they are here now with total electric.

[Servicetech571]

I won't belabor the point too much but I'll disagree with you about the choice of NG over total electric. My bills in a house half the size of our current one were more when paying for NG and electric than they are here now with total electric.

Your savings comes from ditching the $350/yr in fixed ONG meter charges, not from the heat pump water heater. Unless you are converting your house to total electric a heat pump water heater doesn't make economic sense.

[ou48A]

ONG does lay the base meter charges on thick, but the gas itself is quite cheap. Once you pay the hefty monthly service charge, run as much on the cheap NG as possible. This is why the HP water heater doesn't make economic sense for those on ONG. Neither do dual fuel heating systems for that matter.

The high monthly ONG charge is one small reason why I switched to a 100 % electric Geothermal heat and air system....It also provides me with free hot water when the unit is running.
Geothermal is a great way to go in most new home construction in our area IMHO.

[Zuplar]

Electric bills aren't unreasonable for a 2007 2,100sqft house. Propane is 91,500BTU per gallon. Your builder most likely oversized the furnace and put in a 100,000BTU model. 4 gallons of propane equates to 4.36hrs of burner time per day, which is a reasonable amount of heat loss for your house.

The cost per gallon on the propane is what's killing you. A $3.40/gallon it would be cheaper to use plain electric resistance heaters!! $3.70 for 100K vs. $2.90 using resistance heat @ 10 cents per KWH. Heat Pump with a COP of 2.5 would be about $1.15 per 100,000BTU. With a heat pump you would most likely go over 600KWH in a month during the winter and the electricity goes to 6 cents per KWH. Heat pump then runs for 70 cents per 100,000BTU.

You are clearly a lot more knowledgeable than myself, so what would you suggest in my situation? I doubt propane stays this high. Hopefully it goes back down closer to at least $2 hopefully back down to the $1.75 by summer. I've had the unit looked at recently and he said everything checked out, but still even with the laundry list of what was looked at, I don't know if there is more that can be done.

[Servicetech571]

The high monthly ONG charge is one small reason why I switched to a 100 % electric Geothermal heat and air system....It also provides me with free hot water when the unit is running.
Geothermal is a great way to go in most new home construction in our area IMHO.

Geothermal is EXCELLENT, just wish it wasn't so expensive!! Do you miss gas water heater/stove at all?
Ground loops are a large part of the Geothermal install cost, but are much cheaper at time of home construction.

[Servicetech571]

You are clearly a lot more knowledgeable than myself, so what would you suggest in my situation? I doubt propane stays this high. Hopefully it goes back down closer to at least $2 hopefully back down to the $1.75 by summer. I've had the unit looked at recently and he said everything checked out, but still even with the laundry list of what was looked at, I don't know if there is more that can be done.

I'd go with a dual fuel system (add a heatpump) if I was in your situation, you already have the furnace. Nobody knows what electric or propane rates will be in the future, with dual fuel you can choose the lowest cost fuel as rates change.

Heating Fuel Cost Calculator - BuildingGreen.com

[Servicetech571]

Propane shortage reaches emergency levels

[Zuplar]

That article is somewhat promising in the fact that it seems like there are some unfortunate events that coincided. I'm going to look at a heat pump but from a quick call to an hvac friend sounds like I'd have to replace a lot because my unit uses the old r22. He is saying ballpark $5k. That's practically a new system.

[ou48A]

Geothermal is EXCELLENT, just wish it wasn't so expensive!! Do you miss gas water heater/stove at all?
Ground loops are a large part of the Geothermal install cost, but are much cheaper at time of home construction.

Personally I have never missed any of my NG appliances and I am someone who worked in the natural gas transmission business for about 15 years. The performance in extreme weather has been very good. Unlike many people I keep the thermostat wherever it feels comfortable and don't worry about my bill is being 10 dollars higher that month because of it.

The up front cost are high, although the tax breaks and rebate did help a lot.
I look at this as an investment that pays me back a dividend with a lower utility bill each month.
It will add just a tad extra to my homes value and perhaps make it an easier sell?

Much to many of my neighbor's amazement we had the Geothermal wells drilling in our front yard. Some thought we were drilling for oil. The pipe in the wells and ground, that is the loop, is guaranteed for 50 years. Even if our home is blown away in a tornado the ground loop / wells would make our lot more desirable to buy.

Another very big reason why I elected to go with Geo thermal is that it would act as a hedge against future NG price spikes that were 100% sure to come at some point with the way our Government has been interfering with the NG business.

[ou48A]

I'd go with a dual fuel system (add a heatpump) if I was in your situation, you already have the furnace. Nobody knows what electric or propane rates will be in the future, with dual fuel you can choose the lowest cost fuel as rates change.

Heating Fuel Cost Calculator - BuildingGreen.com

My Geothermal unit replaced a old dual fuel system that I had.
Several years ago when NG surcharges were extremely high I did exactly as you suggest and used the cheaper electrical power for heat as much as I could.

[Servicetech571]

That article is somewhat promising in the fact that it seems like there are some unfortunate events that coincided. I'm going to look at a heat pump but from a quick call to an hvac friend sounds like I'd have to replace a lot because my unit uses the old r22. He is saying ballpark $5k. That's practically a new system.

Yes, you would need to buy a matching coil/condenser when switching to a heat pump system. Did you tell him you wanted to reuse your old furnace? Did you discuss the tons of the unit?

[Zuplar]

Yeah we talked a bit about that, my unit is a 4 ton I believe. I'm not sure how expensive those pieces are but it seems like those are the major components so I guess that's why it is so high.

[Servicetech571]

4 tons is most likely overkill, sized by the old "500sqft per ton" rule thats been around since the 60's. Hopefully your house is better insulated than a 1960's model!! You bill is $130/mo which would be closer to a 2.5-3 ton load.

[Zuplar]

Well there is a natural gas line that runs through my neighborhood, as people that live towards the back of my development have NG. I called ONG today to see what it would cost to run a line and they said they'd have to go measure. Maybe that is a better alternative than switching my whole unit over.

[RadicalModerate]

I won't belabor the point too much but I'll disagree with you about the choice of NG over total electric. My bills in a house half the size of our current one were more when paying for NG and electric than they are here now with total electric.

The day that I would consider going totally electric would be the day after they put all of the supply lines underground.
(can you say "ice storm power outages"? . . . that can last for weeks?)

[ou48A]

The day that I would consider going totally electric would be the day after they put all of the supply lines underground.
(can you say "ice storm power outages"? . . . that can last for weeks?)

While not totally fool proof living in a large neighborhood with underground utility's helps a lot.
In my case I am on the same main line as a major OG&E maintenance facility....
In the 12 years in this home we have been without power for a grand total of 6 to 7 hours and most of that was due to a copper thief.

[stick47]

Power outages would still require that you have a generator to run your gas furnace. BTDT, 2002, 40 hours w/o power right in Mustang. I see no advantage to gas. I have a fireplace connected to a small propane tank that will run me for several days if the heat pump is off line. Also have a transfer switch and generator.

[Zuplar]

Just talked with someone at OLG, $3.98 a gallon.

[Servicetech571]

Well there is a natural gas line that runs through my neighborhood, as people that live towards the back of my development have NG. I called ONG today to see what it would cost to run a line and they said they'd have to go measure. Maybe that is a better alternative than switching my whole unit over.

The furnace and stove most likely can be converted. The water heater will need to be replaced. ONG will give you $400 towards a gas dryer.

[Zuplar]

The furnace and stove most likely can be converted. The water heater will need to be replaced. ONG will give you $400 towards a gas dryer.

Why couldn't the hot water tank be converted? I think that thing is brand new. I thought everything came NG and then could be converted to propane.

[ctchandler]

Zuplar and Servicetech571k,
My water heater was converted. It's a simple orifice change.
C. T.

Why couldn't the hot water tank be converted? I think that thing is brand new. I thought everything came NG and then could be converted to propane.

[Zuplar]

Zuplar and Servicetech571k,
My water heater was converted. It's a simple orifice change.
C. T.

What brand is yours? I would think it would be easy but things nowadays seem not to be. If it couldn't be converted that could be a deal breaker. That is assuming to run the line is cheap.

[Servicetech571]

Zuplar and Servicetech571k,
My water heater was converted. It's a simple orifice change.
C. T.

Did you convert from Propane to NG or the other way around?

Most water heaters are not rated for conversion, but that doesn't mean it can't be done...

[Servicetech571]

I'd love to see the labeling on a water heater under 20 years old that is rated for conversion, I didn't know they still made them.

[Zuplar]

I just went and looked and don't see anywhere that it says Propane only. It actually only says LP in one place. Other than that it's similar warnings about hot water and gas smell. It's a bradford white. I googled the model number and it is a propane model, but looks like it also comes in a NG model. So makes me wonder if you could buy the NG parts to install.