Live music venue proposed for NW 23rd

[Pete]

^

As always, thanks for the inside Bricktown scoop.

Weren't most those concerts some time ago? What changed where they pretty much stopped?

I actually like that venue. I organized a class reunion there 10 years ago and we hired Banana Seat (10-piece band) and it was all awesome.

The stage is nice and high providing good site lines from anywhere on a crowded floor, the proportions are good, etc.


I've been told that what really needs to happen is good promotion and then have several venues with good sound systems so they can all feed off each other. As I said earlier, this seems like a step in that direction and I think everyone can feel the collective hunger for a better live music scene in OKC. I suspect if done right, there would be a tremendous response.

[bluedogok]

Banana Seat at the Bricktown Brewery (way back when) was always a good time. They did their schtick very well.

[Urbanized]

Yes, though all of those shows mentioned happened within the past decade, most of them happened 3, 5 or more years ago. I think it definitely is an issue with promoters to some extent. While the owner has an excellent relationship with David Fitzgerald (DCF Concerts), Fitzgerald DID buy the Diamond a few years ago. So naturally, he wants to put shows into his own venue to support it, and to gain the most revenue.

The next issue if DCF is booking is that if the show is really special he is likely to send it instead to Cain's Ballroom (he regularly books at Cain's), where he is likely to get a sellout, or at least better attendance. Shows TEND to be better attended in Tulsa for a number of reasons, including the fact that Tulsa, historically, is more live-music-inclined than OKC. Simply put, they are in the habit of going to see live music, so they are more inclined to go. Does that make sense?

Another dynamic, in my opinion, is that OKC folks will happily drive to Tulsa to see a show, whereas Tulsa folks usually couldn't be bothered to come to OKC, (usually correctly) assuming the band will be back through Tulsa soon, anyway. I would estimate at any given show in Tulsa that maybe 10-20% or more in attendance are from the OKC area.

I also know many OKC folks would turn down a show at an OKC venue like the Diamond and drive to THE SAME SHOW at Cain's or Brady if they can, just because they prefer the Tulsa venues. I saw this happen several weeks ago when Local Natives played back-to-back at Cain's then Diamond, and know if OKC people who chose the Tulsa show over the one here. We don't do ourselves any favors there.

Hopefully as new venues emerge (this one, the newly-opened Bricktown Music Hall) and as the Chevy Bricktown Event Center improves, promoters AND artists will take more of an interest in OKC.

[Pete]

There is also the prospect of the Wormy Dog group doing a bigger venue in east Bricktown.

It seems we have the venues and will soon have more, but what we are lacking is quality promotion... I truly believe that if we get some good indie bands there are enough young and young-minded people in OKC now that they will eat it up with a spoon.

[Urbanized]

I fall firmly into the young-minded category. Most shows I go to (and I go to a lot) are punk/indie shows at places like The Opolis, The Conservatory, ACM Performance Lab, Diamond, Cain's, Brady, where the average age is probably 20-25 and everyone is looking at me wondering who brought their dad to the show.

I've been pushing hard for the Bricktown Music Hall guys to add plenty of good indie shows to the mix, and they are listening. Only a few shows so far, but great venue reviews from the bands who've played and the fans in attendance, so hopefully quality bookings start turning for them.

[bluedogok]

There is also the prospect of the Wormy Dog group doing a bigger venue in east Bricktown.

It seems we have the venues and will soon have more, but what we are lacking is quality promotion... I truly believe that if we get some good indie bands there are enough young and young-minded people in OKC now that they will eat it up with a spoon.

I agree, promotion is the key problem. Even 15-20 years ago the Brewery would pull in some pretty big names and crowds with a less than optimal venue for concerts.

[Pete]

Yes, that is right about the Bricktown Brewery.

I know The Outfield played there, among others.


Just seems like we can never get anything cohesive... Venues that are not really investing in their equipment, no consistency in booking, etc.

There is absolutely no reason there shouldn't be at least a decent live music scene in OKC, or any city of our size.

[Urbanized]

The Outfield, Smithereens, Flock of Seagulls, The Tragically Hip, Spin Doctors, lots of others. Dave Matthews was booked there once, but the show was pre-empted by the Murrah bombing and rescheduled at a different venue.

[bluedogok]

Molly's Yes and Caroline's Spine played there quite a bit, bands with Tulsa connections who had major label albums. I remember a lot of bands from the early 90's era played there.

[soonerguru]

What's the square footage of the ballroom down by Crossroads Mall?

Who cares. That place sucks.

[soonerguru]

Sorry, but the promoters in OKC who dream big don't have money. The ones with money don't take risks. It absolutely sucks for a city of its size -- and with the musical talent that is from here -- that OKC is such a weak, weak place for touring artists.

Buildings are nice, but without the right promoter(s), we will never have a music scene as good as Tulsa.

[soonerguru]

Yes, though all of those shows mentioned happened within the past decade, most of them happened 3, 5 or more years ago. I think it definitely is an issue with promoters to some extent. While the owner has an excellent relationship with David Fitzgerald (DCF Concerts), Fitzgerald DID buy the Diamond a few years ago. So naturally, he wants to put shows into his own venue to support it, and to gain the most revenue.

The next issue if DCF is booking is that if the show is really special he is likely to send it instead to Cain's Ballroom (he regularly books at Cain's), where he is likely to get a sellout, or at least better attendance. Shows TEND to be better attended in Tulsa for a number of reasons, including the fact that Tulsa, historically, is more live-music-inclined than OKC. Simply put, they are in the habit of going to see live music, so they are more inclined to go. Does that make sense?

Another dynamic, in my opinion, is that OKC folks will happily drive to Tulsa to see a show, whereas Tulsa folks usually couldn't be bothered to come to OKC, (usually correctly) assuming the band will be back through Tulsa soon, anyway. I would estimate at any given show in Tulsa that maybe 10-20% or more in attendance are from the OKC area.

I also know many OKC folks would turn down a show at an OKC venue like the Diamond and drive to THE SAME SHOW at Cain's or Brady if they can, just because they prefer the Tulsa venues. I saw this happen several weeks ago when Local Natives played back-to-back at Cain's then Diamond, and know if OKC people who chose the Tulsa show over the one here. We don't do ourselves any favors there.

Hopefully as new venues emerge (this one, the newly-opened Bricktown Music Hall) and as the Chevy Bricktown Event Center improves, promoters AND artists will take more of an interest in OKC.

DCF is part of our problem. They force everything to Diamond, which they own and which sucks, and they tend to book a lot of schlock.

I am very excited about the prospect overall of a new music venue, I just hope they commit to really booking acts multiple times a month. We need touring indie artists of note, who are on current tours, not just reunion crapola.

[Spartan]

Sounds very much like the Farmer's Market.


I guess my point is that there are venues, just very little in bookings.

That venue has a different problem than the Bricktown Coca Cola Events Center.

[bchris02]

I agree that Tulsa has historcally been more live music oriented, just as they have been more arts oriented. Like many things though, OKC has nowhere to go but up. Demand for live music will increase as more and more twentysomethings choose to call OKC home. Tulsa may always be the live music capital of the state, but there is no reason you should be limited to only red-dirt country in a city of 1.3 million people. I guess it goes back to the entire fact of life here that permeates every aspect of development in OKC; the people with the money refuse to take risks.

[LakeEffect]

Ok, back to the proposed venue. From an urban revitalization standpoint, this is an unfortunate choice of use. I'd much rather other uses be in this space and they somehow get the Dillons to sell the Tower Theater to them and use that. Maybe that's what this is? A leverage tactic to get them to sell Tower?

[BDK]

This is fantastic news. Hopefully renderings come sooner than later.

[Pete]

Ok, back to the proposed venue. From an urban revitalization standpoint, this is an unfortunate choice of use. I'd much rather other uses be in this space and they somehow get the Dillons to sell the Tower Theater to them and use that. Maybe that's what this is? A leverage tactic to get them to sell Tower?

What to do when they won't sell and you know there is a massive need/demand for a live music venue in that area?


My understanding is they asked Dillion for a price, and although it was steep, this group was willing to pay it. Then Dillon changed his mind and didn't want to sell.

And I don't think this was the first time he's turned interested parties away.


Dillon & Co. have owned the Tower for over eight years now.

[LakeEffect]

What to do when they won't sell and you know there is a massive need/demand for a live music venue in that area?


My understanding is they asked Dillion for a price, and although it was steep, this group was willing to pay it. Then Dillon changed his mind and didn't want to sell.

And I don't think this was the first time he's turned interested parties away.


Dillon & Co. have owned the Tower for over eight years now.

Oh, I agree, there's not much you can do when they won't sell. It's just danged unfortunate that they won't. It's just an unfortunate situation.

[Pete]

I believe the now well-organized Uptown merchant association is starting to lose patience with the Tower situation, as we all are.

It's one thing when you can't get financing or the economics just won't work, it's quite another just to squat on a very important piece of property.

[PhiAlpha]

Well on the positive side, if the Tower isn't going to come back to life for awhile, this is exactly what that dead block needs to bridge the gap between Cheevers/Grandad's/Backdoor/Tuckers/Taco Bell (Hehe) and the Rise/Big Truck/Pizza 23, etc. This is the kind of development that will begin to bring Uptown closer to it's true potential, without the Tower being developed. To be honest, while frustrating, if everything around it gets developed and that is all that's left for awhile, it doesn't really matter. We're still getting the exact same venue that was supposed to bring the tower, and thus that part of the district, to life right next door. The Tower is iconic and important but in the end it's just a vacant building space and it's not preventing the district from getting the live music venue/draw it desperately needs. Should be interesting to see what happens but I don't think the Tower Theater is near as crucial to the success of 23rd St. as some are making it out to be.

[PhiAlpha]

I believe the now well-organized Uptown merchant association is starting to lose patience with the Tower situation, as we all are.

It's one thing when you can't get financing or the economics just won't work, it's quite another just to squat on a very important piece of property.

But yeah, it's freaking ridiculous that Dillon can't make it work...if Landrun Commercial could find financing to renovate basically an entire city block that is arguably in near as bad of condition as the Tower...there is really no excuse. Dillon just found out how much groups are willing to pay for his damn property and wants to see how much more he can get out of it after the rest of uptown is developed.

[BDP]

It seems we have the venues and will soon have more, but what we are lacking is quality promotion... I truly believe that if we get some good indie bands there are enough young and young-minded people in OKC now that they will eat it up with a spoon.

I have been singing this song for a long time now. It is interesting too how enamored people are with Cain's as a space. They book good acts and it has a great history, which is what I like about it, but as an actual space it is relatively pedestrian. It's a good room, but not a "wow, this place is amazing" type room. I think it's legacy is more about the talent that has played there than the actual venue.

But, as you keep saying, the key element is promotion. It is interesting, because just the other day I was talking about what a void there is here right now and that even when DCF does do some good shows, they seem very poorly operated. I was wondering how long it would be for competent promotion in North Texas to recognize the potential market opportunities in OKC. It's such a great expansion opportunity for them. They could even use it to do a sort of 2-in-one by booking a band on tour in both Dallas and OKC and leverage some of their admin and promotion costs. OKC is a great routing date for a lot tours, which helps the agents, and the logistics of a promoter working in both markets makes a lot of sense.

Funny though, how it starting to sound like we might go from famine to feast. I just hope saturation doesn't become a factor.

[BDP]

I agree that Tulsa has historcally been more live music oriented, just as they have been more arts oriented.

I like our art events better. Tulsa's probably better on the "fine arts" side of the spectrum, but it certainly is in no way better than OKC is local art talent or events.

[BDP]

They force everything to Diamond, which they own and which sucks, and they tend to book a lot of schlock.

They do a crappy job of booking that place. Interestingly, though, I have been to a couple of shows there that sounded better than anything I have seen at Cain's.

I also know many OKC folks would turn down a show at an OKC venue like the Diamond and drive to THE SAME SHOW at Cain's or Brady if they can, just because they prefer the Tulsa venues.

I always try and check Dallas if something isn't coming here. There are definitely some better venues than Cain's around DFW, certainly in terms of charm and acoustics.

[Rajah]

Tulsa and Dallas are my go-to places for concerts. I always make a night (or weekend) of it and get a hotel near Cains, in Deep Ellum, Lower Greenville etc. I've been to a few shows at Diamond Ballroom and would not go back if I could help it. The shows themselves weren't bad at all but you don't get the whole experience there that you would in Tulsa or Dallas. I cannot wait for this venue to come in so I can have this experience in my back yard and support OKC businesses and Uptown. Excited for what this will bring to our city!