Toll Every Interstate

[Teo9969]

Nobody gave hoya his due, but a big problem genuinely is the trucking industry. A vehicle that weighs 10x to 25x that of a car, probably should shoulder a majority of whatever toll/tax we're going to levy.

Maybe a freight tax or toll based on weight...now, of course that will raise the price of goods everywhere, but that will only in the end incentivize localization of economy in the long run.

[Bellaboo]

I've never seen a study on that. Can you point me to one?

I used to work for the Feds - FAA - common knowledge back then. I used to watch 400 people at a qtr till 5:00 waiting in a line at the door until the clock struck 5:00 to go home. Not very productive on most levels.

[Just the facts]

Nobody gave hoya his due, but a big problem genuinely is the trucking industry. A vehicle that weighs 10x to 25x that of a car, probably should shoulder a majority of whatever toll/tax we're going to levy.

Maybe a freight tax or toll based on weight...now, of course that will raise the price of goods everywhere, but that will only in the end incentivize localization of economy in the long run.

Compared to a car - yes trucks do more damage, but compared to the amount of destruction done by mother nature both vehicles pale in comparison. Just look at crumbing sidewalks as an example. The heaviest thing on them is a person.

[Just the facts]

The other element of the response to the original post is whether another aspect of the "solution" involves the consideration of the solution underway in a number of states...namely, ones that are building private highway-caliber "intrastate" highways, and the prime example of this is Texas....correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that they are 100% financed without a penny from the fed gov't.

The State of Florida has already said no more free highways will be built here. Any new roads or lanes added to existing highways will all be toll. What will be interesting is if they use a growth model to determine the toll rate. I suspect they will which means at some point we will be right back where we started.

[Dubya61]

I used to work for the Feds - FAA - common knowledge back then. I used to watch 400 people at a qtr till 5:00 waiting in a line at the door until the clock struck 5:00 to go home. Not very productive on most levels.

You must have not exactly had your head in the game, either, if you were watching the people. I know several government workers and they often put in much more than their 8 hours because they love their job and get great satisfaction. I also know several government workers who barely earn their pay. The same is true in the private sector. The fact that some clock watchers exist doesn't correlate to government waste on a wide-spread scale.

[rezman]

Yes - but you aren't paying enough. That is the whole problem and raising the rate won't help because cars are getting more fuel efficient and an increasing number aren't using gasoline at all.

Here is the easy solution. Eliminate about 75% of the interchanges and put toll booths (with an optional electronic system) on the remaining 25%. We have to do something because the current strategy isn't working.

Here is how I would reconfigure I-35

Close
Lindsey St (Norman)
Main St (Norman)
Robinson (Norman)
Flood (Norman)
Indian Hills (Norman)
SW 4th - including the service roads (Moore)
NW 12th (Moore)
NW 27th (Moore)
SE 89th (OKC)
SE 66th (OKC)
SE 44th (OKC)
SE 29th (OKC)
SE 25th (OKC)
Eastern (OKC)
NE 10th (OKC)
NE 36th (OKC)
Bryant (OKC)
NE 78th (OKC)
Wilshire (OKC)
NE 108th (OKC)
NE 122nd (OKC)
E Memorial (OKC)
E 33rd (Edmond)
E 15th (Edmond)
Danforth (Edmond)
Waterloo (Edmond)
E Seward (Edmond)
Division (rural exit)

Toll Booth
Highway 9 (Norman)
Tecumseh Rd (Norman)
SW 19th (Moore)
Shields (Moore)
SE59th (OKC)
Grand, Blvd (OKC)
SE 15th (OKC)
Eastern (OKC)
SE 23rd (OKC)
NE 50th (OKC)
Britton (OKC)
E 2nd (Edmond)
E. Covell (Edmond)



No Toll
I-240 (OKC)
I-40 West (OKC)
I-235 (OKC)
I-40 East (OKC)
I-44 (OKC)
I-44/Kilpatrick (OKC)

So lets say a plan like this was enacted. And lets say 10% of that traffic came off the interstates because drivers didn't like it and refuse to pay a toll for what their taxes should already be paying for, and was already built. I wonder what kind of impact this would have on the state highways, main arteries, and surface streets that will have to absorb the extra traffic.

[Dubya61]

So lets say a plan like this was enacted. And lets say 10% of that traffic came off the interstates because drivers didn't like it and refuse to pay a toll for what their taxes should already be paying for, and was already built. I wonder what kind of impact this would have on the state highways, main arteries, and surface streets that will have to absorb the extra traffic.

Perhaps all these people giving up the Interstates would look to some OTHER form of surface transportation. Maybe we'd get an RTA and/or JTF's OK Rail Network and people could start enjoying the commute. Maybe we'd start to look to locating our houses and jobs closer to each other. Maybe we'd start to focus on living in our neighborhoods more. Maybe that traffic would disappear more than dissipate to other roads.

[Bellaboo]

You must have not exactly had your head in the game, either, if you were watching the people. I know several government workers and they often put in much more than their 8 hours because they love their job and get great satisfaction. I also know several government workers who barely earn their pay. The same is true in the private sector. The fact that some clock watchers exist doesn't correlate to government waste on a wide-spread scale.

I was a contractor, I worked for half the pay until 7 pm, as they filed out early. But what I'm referring to was in DC at the time. It's hard to miss as the file right by you.

Government waste ? You ever heard about the $500 hammer....?

[BoulderSooner]

we pay plenty of taxes to fund the federal highway system ... we just need change the wasteful spending in washington ... and restructure/change the entitlement programs.....


ie... not happening anytime soon .

[venture]

Perhaps all these people giving up the Interstates would look to some OTHER form of surface transportation. Maybe we'd get an RTA and/or JTF's OK Rail Network and people could start enjoying the commute. Maybe we'd start to look to locating our houses and jobs closer to each other. Maybe we'd start to focus on living in our neighborhoods more. Maybe that traffic would disappear more than dissipate to other roads.

Rolling out a RTA would be the big thing to happen with tolling all interstates. I personally would have no problem giving up my car to take the train in every day. It would give me an hour back each way of productivity that I can't get while driving. Many seem to miss that point.

[Just the facts]

Perhaps all these people giving up the Interstates would look to some OTHER form of surface transportation. Maybe we'd get an RTA and/or JTF's OK Rail Network and people could start enjoying the commute. Maybe we'd start to look to locating our houses and jobs closer to each other. Maybe we'd start to focus on living in our neighborhoods more. Maybe that traffic would disappear more than dissipate to other roads.

This ^

Just think how much money we would have to left over to spend on quality of life issues (or pay back the federal debt) if we weren't spending so much on transportation costs. Say what we want about Europe, but do you know why they work 1/2 the hours we do? Answer - because they can.

[Larry OKC]

Roads are incredibly expensive to maintain. Interstates especially so because the trucking industry relies on them so much. And that's the problem. Big trucks thrive because they're effectively getting a subsidized transportation system. Trucks cause a lot more damage to the roads than cars do. But even though they have worse gas mileage than cars, a gasoline tax doesn't reflect the higher amount of damage that these trucks cause to the roads.

It's the equivalent of splitting the check right down the middle when you go to a restaurant with a fat guy.

We're going to need to modernize our transportation network. That may include a lot more tolls on major interstates. Or how about just tolls for big trucks? Will they pass the costs on to their customers? Of course. But that may make other forms of transportation more affordable. More goods might be shipped by air, or by rail.

Regardless, it's time to tell the fat guy, "no, I'll just pay for my BLT and coke. You pay for your six cheeseburgers."

While it isn't proportionate to the amount of damage created by a truck compared to a passenger vehicle, the trucking industry already pays higher gasoline taxes per gallon than the rest of us do (along with the lower gas mileage which means they have to buy more fuel, which means more revenue)

The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel.

Also it depends on the kind of truck...

The U.S. Department of Transportation in its most recent Highway Cost Allocation Study estimated that light single-unit trucks, operating at less than 25,000 pounds, pay 150 percent of their road costs while the heaviest tractor-trailer combination trucks, weighing over 100,000 pounds, pay only 50 percent of their road costs.

Then there are probably things like taxes, fees etc that government entities collect from the trucking industry that are above and beyond the rest of us???

[Bellaboo]

This ^

Just think how much money we would have to left over to spend on quality of life issues (or pay back the federal debt) if we weren't spending so much on transportation costs. Say what we want about Europe, but do you know why they work 1/2 the hours we do? Answer - because they can.

Are you very knowledgable of the debt situation Greece is in ? First off, most of them retired at 40 years of age, second, they are a little short on jobs. And Spain isn't much better......lol

Next time you're in London, ask them why a ton of their jobs migrated to Dublin ? There's a reason we had to bail them out of 2 world wars..LOL

[hoya]

So lets say a plan like this was enacted. And lets say 10% of that traffic came off the interstates because drivers didn't like it and refuse to pay a toll for what their taxes should already be paying for, and was already built. I wonder what kind of impact this would have on the state highways, main arteries, and surface streets that will have to absorb the extra traffic.

There are not too many possibilities. It should be easy for us to examine them.

Either we really are paying enough money to maintain our interstates (as you said "what our taxes should already be paying for") or we are not. It must be one or the other. There is no third possibility. At the moment, it appears as though the second possibility is the correct one.

If we really are paying enough money with our taxes, then we need to determine where the inefficiency is that makes our roads fall into disrepair.
If we are not paying enough money, then we must either decrease services or increase taxes (I suppose we could allow it to slowly fall into dangerous disrepair). There is no other possibility.

We currently have a gasoline tax that is supposed to cover these sorts of repairs. However when that tax was established, it was based upon certain assumptions. It assumed a certain number of miles of interstate, a certain number of drivers, and a certain amount of fuel efficiency. We have since seen that those numbers were incorrect. Because people aren't driving as far, and because they're getting better gas mileage, and because we've built a lot more interstates over the decades, the tax is insufficient.

Are you paying a tax to maintain the interstate system? Yes. But it's the equivalent of paying $12 a month for your cable bill. It might have been sufficient in 1982, but it is not sufficient in 2013. Therefore we must either decrease services or increase taxes. If we decrease services, or charge a toll to the point that people abandon the interstate in favor of local roads, then some of the wear and tear from the interstate will be shifted to those local roads. This will require the exact same choices at the local level.

Not liking the choices we have ahead of us does not mean that the dilemma is not real.

What we should be doing is investing heavily in other types of transportation options, as well as exploring new funding sources for the interstate system. But that's going to require planning and investment.

[Just the facts]

[/B]

Are you very knowledgable of the debt situation Greece is in ? First off, most of them retired at 40 years of age, second, they are a little short on jobs. And Spain isn't much better......lol

Next time you're in London, ask them why a ton of their jobs migrated to Dublin ? There's a reason we had to bail them out of 2 world wars..LOL

Funny you mention Greece. Do you know our debt situation is worse and we have to work until we drop dead. Lower debt AND get to retire at 40 - where did we screw up?

'U.S. Per Person Debt Now 35 Percent Higher than that of Greece' | The Weekly Standard

"On a per person basis, that means U.S. debt is $53,400 for every man, woman, and child, compared to $39,400 for every man, woman, and child in Greece.

[Bellaboo]

Funny you mention Greece. Do you know our debt situation is worse and we have to work until we drop dead. Lower debt AND get to retire at 40 - where did we screw up?

'U.S. Per Person Debt Now 35 Percent Higher than that of Greece' | The Weekly Standard

I was in Greece a couple of years ago where they didn't have the money to make a payroll for public facilities....... you should have seen the trash on the streets. Now they are in the process of correcting 20 years and your out as a gvm't employee.

Now if you'd read that article.... that desparity happened in one year...prior to 2011 we were lower... also notice how out of the top 6, 5 are European.

[Just the facts]

I was in Greece a couple of years ago where they didn't have the money to make a payroll for public facilities....... you should have seen the trash on the streets. Now they are in the process of correcting 20 years and your out as a gvm't employee.

I know, that is why we have to figure out to prevent that from happening here. As hoyasooner said above - more revenue, less service, interstate highway system collapse - those are the 3, and only 3, choices for the US interstate system. There is no secret option 4.

To be fully honest - my money is on option 3. We know we can't raise the gasoline tax because when gas hits $4 per gallon the economy starts to shut down, but our current gas tax doesn't generate enough revenue to maintain the roads. I think we are caught in a progress trap with no way out but down the drain. As long as we have debt available to us we will just keep digging the hole deeper. Your guess is as good as mine as to what happens when the debt runs out, but I know one thing, we won't be widening any interstates then.

[Bellaboo]

Yep, we keep borrowing to pay our bills.....not sure where it ends.

[Jersey Boss]

I know, that is why we have to figure out to prevent that from happening here. As hoyasooner said above - more revenue, less service, interstate highway system collapse - those are the 3, and only 3, choices for the US interstate system. There is no secret option 4.

To be fully honest - my money is on option 3. We know we can't raise the gasoline tax because when gas hits $4 per gallon the economy starts to shut down, but our current gas tax doesn't generate enough revenue to maintain the roads. I think we are caught in a progress trap with no way out but down the drain. As long as we have debt available to us we will just keep digging the hole deeper. Your guess is as good as mine as to what happens when the debt runs out, but I know one thing, we won't be widening any interstates then.

So because other countries with a more balanced transportation system with more options for consumers have higher pump prices, it does not affect them as much?

[kwhey]

Stupid idea.

[Just the facts]

Stupid idea.

Do you have a better idea? The problem doesn't go away just because the proposed solution is stupid.

[Jersey Boss]

JTF, why do prices > than 4 bucks/gallon tank our economy but not those of other industrialized countries?

[venture]

JTF, why do prices > than 4 bucks/gallon tank our economy but not those of other industrialized countries?

I would imagine the others are less reliant on the trucking industry to move goods.

Do you have a better idea? The problem doesn't go away just because the proposed solution is stupid.

So many find it easy to just make their few word posts on how stupid something is or that it can't work, but never provide any solutions or additional thought.

The easiest first step should be an immediate tolling of all rural interstates. It isn't hard to do with existing PikePass/EasyPass/IPass systems in place over much of the country already. The urban portions would be a little tougher.

[HangryHippo]

JTF, why do prices > than 4 bucks/gallon tank our economy but not those of other industrialized countries?

Maybe it has something to do with those other places (I'm talking western Europe) have more well-rounded transportation systems that can supplement auto transport easier than what we have available in this country? Just thinking out loud here.

[Stew]

Why wouldn't you just raise the gas tax? It's a fixed amount per gallon that's the same today as it was 20 years ago. You don't have to be an economist to know if you dont adjust it for inflation then of course it's going to be insufficient 20 years later unless you cut spending by an equal amount as consumed by inflation which in this case is about 35%. Sure, toll roads could be used to generate the money but it would incur some amount of initial outlay and also on going operating costs that far exceeds the cost of simply raising the existing tax. Either way the costs will be paid by the motorists so what difference does it make. It seems like a no brainer but then again I'm not an expert on the subject. I'm sure there's a sprawl factor I'm not considering.

Its just somewhat saddening that within my lifetime the richest nation ever known on this planet has come to the point where roads are seen as an unaffordable luxury.