Fallin ignoring FOIA request

[mkjeeves]

You can go back to my post 21 and read the last letter the ACLU wrote to the state with their narrative of events. The ACLU prepared the record request for TLO in December. The ACLU followed up numerous times on the phone, by certified mail and in person over the following weeks. The actual record dissemination happened immediately following when the ACLU submitted that last and final letter.

Which BTW, does not match Steve's narrative that the ACLU only got involved 12 hours before the record release. They got involved after the DO started this pursuit, but months before anything happened.

Kudos to the DO for their ideas and efforts to pursue the issue. Kudos to TLO and the ACLU for their pressure. Not so much to the DO for the bad reporting of what role TLO and the ACLU played.

[Steve]

I'm going to stick with what I said - the idea that The Oklahoman and Zeke Campfield somehow did not do the job here, which is what TLO implied, and that TLO and the ACLU are to credit, is crazy. This is a theme started by TLO is its post last week, continued by their readers through social media, etc. I applaud TLO and the ACLU for joining the effort to get the records law complied with after it was started by Zeke and built up by The Gazette, Tulsa World, OETA and KOKH... but to say they're the ones who got this done, and that the release was directly tied to the letter last week - that's not right (as acknowledged in a classy follow-up by TLO). I may have been too harsh on TLO and the ACLU - but I don't take back the basic thought here - it's dishonest to suggest The Oklahoman didn't do the job on this.

[OKCretro]

dumping documents on a friday afternoon is nothing new in the political arena. Politicians on the left and the right do this all the time. If you believe she is the first person to do this, you are fairly new to the political game.

[Midtowner]

I will applaud any lawyer, including Henderson, who might proceed with legal action against the governor for continuing to claim a non-existent "executive privilege" on the 100 withheld emails.

I'd need a client (someone with solid standing, preferably a media or new media source), but it sounds like fun.

I'm in (we'd have to talk about the money thing, I don't want to get into a 2-year + protracted fight at the Supreme Court for free, but I'd definitely work with whoever wants to take this on).

[Midtowner]

I'll repeat what I said on Twitter: those who want to deprive Oklahoman reporter Zeke Campfield of credit for his hard work are dishonest & are suspect on their agenda. And I'll add one more thing: the emails show Zeke starting this whole thing, going to battle against Fallin, kept at it, and then OETA's Bob Sands, The Tulsa World's Wayne Green, The Oklahoma Gazette's Clifton Adcock and KOKH's Phil Cross joining in the fight a couple weeks in. That's the list, as it was, until December. And Zeke - God bless him - he stuck with it. He kept going and going. Editors kept up the pressure. Fallin came to the newsroom to visit about the matter. By the time the ACLU jumped on board, the emails were being prepped for release. If you REALLY think the governor was able to suddenly crank out all 50,000 emails in 12 hours in response to the ACLU letter, well, yeah, whatever.
Zeke Campfield and The Oklahoman brought these emails to light. Period.
I will applaud any lawyer, including Henderson, who might proceed with legal action against the governor for continuing to claim a non-existent "executive privilege" on the 100 withheld emails.

Here's the thing Steve. Campfield, Sands, Green, etc., exchanging emails and pretty pleases for something which is by law their right to have is ridiculous. Surely the Oklahoman can afford counsel to do so. Maybe you even have general counsel on staff or could pool with other media organizations to hire a lawyer to file a lawsuit to get the records. Of course I recognize that you're going to be in a protracted battle with the A.G.'s office over the remaining records claimed by executive privilege, but if you want to support openness in our government, as members of the news media, you are the 4th Estate, the folks whose civic duty it is to pursue that information.

If Fallin wanted to cut off Campfield's access over him pursuing something he has a right to have, what's that they say about never picking a fight with anyone who buys their ink by the barrel?

[Steve]

There's a disconnect on this site: I hear repeatedly from naysayers that the newspaper is dead or dying, yet they also think it's still got huge coffers of money... Midtowner, The Oklahoman has gone through four brutal layoffs the past decade. We're stable right now, but the idea of The Oklahoman having a lot of money to get into legal fights is outdated... but that's not even the point here. My bit was this: it's dishonest to downplay Zeke Campfield's work on this records fight.

[mkjeeves]

it's dishonest to downplay Zeke Campfield's work on this records fight.

I've repeatedly given him props for his effort. It's dishonest to continue to pretend the ACLU did not influence the outcome.

[mkjeeves]

The Oklahoman has gone through four brutal layoffs the past decade. We're stable right now, but the idea of The Oklahoman having a lot of money to get into legal fights is outdated...

Bingo. The ACLU was in it for months and were ready to take it to the next level. I seriously doubt the paper ever was or ever would and the players all knew that.

[Midtowner]

There's a disconnect on this site: I hear repeatedly from naysayers that the newspaper is dead or dying, yet they also think it's still got huge coffers of money... Midtowner, The Oklahoman has gone through four brutal layoffs the past decade. We're stable right now, but the idea of The Oklahoman having a lot of money to get into legal fights is outdated... but that's not even the point here. My bit was this: it's dishonest to downplay Zeke Campfield's work on this records fight.

Campfield didn't contact the ACLU and at least to those of us looking in from the outside could have been something Campfield should have done months ago. And the Oklahoman wouldn't have to go it alone. The networks retain counsel to get records released in criminal cases they try to cover, so why couldn't various media and new media outlets pony up a little money for attorney fees. There's even a good chance you'd end up getting your attorney fees paid because the Open Records Act provides for attorneys fees to anyone who successfully challenges a denial of access to public records. While this case isn't 100% guaranteed to be successful, there are really good arguments on both sides, and it's a fight which needs to be fought so that we'll know once and for all whether the Governor can really pull this $*#$.

If the Oklahoman doesn't have money, be creative. I'll bet someone out there does. Maybe the Democratic Party would pony up the fees and partner up with the Oklahoman? Maybe they'd even provide counsel? I don't accept the excuse that there is no money. This is an important political figure trying to hide something which is apparently damaging to her.

[dankrutka]

There's a disconnect on this site: I hear repeatedly from naysayers that the newspaper is dead or dying, yet they also think it's still got huge coffers of money... Midtowner, The Oklahoman has gone through four brutal layoffs the past decade. We're stable right now, but the idea of The Oklahoman having a lot of money to get into legal fights is outdated... but that's not even the point here. My bit was this: it's dishonest to downplay Zeke Campfield's work on this records fight.

No one is questioning this. The only argument is whether the ACLU and TLO played an important role. They did, but you downplayed that earlier in the thread.

Like always, we all appreciate your contributions and those of the good journalists at The Oklahoman.

[onthestrip]

I'd need a client (someone with solid standing, preferably a media or new media source), but it sounds like fun.

I'm in (we'd have to talk about the money thing, I don't want to get into a 2-year + protracted fight at the Supreme Court for free, but I'd definitely work with whoever wants to take this on).

Any ballpark idea on what itd cost, at a minimum, to take this to court?

[tillyato]

Any ballpark idea on what itd cost, at a minimum, to take this to court?

It depends on how hard you litigate the issue, appeals, etc., but I would ballpark $20-50k on a declaratory judgment type of action, $100k+ if it went to a full blown trial.

[Midtowner]

It depends on how hard you litigate the issue, appeals, etc., but I would ballpark $20-50k on a declaratory judgment type of action, $100k+ if it went to a full blown trial.

I'm not so sure.

Then you'll probably have dueling summary judgment motions. I don't know what factual issues would be in dispute, especially because my position would be that there's no such thing as executive privilege in Oklahoma. I don't really see how depositions and that sort of thing would play into this case, it's a pure legal question. I'm guessing $10-$15K.

Tell me what factual issues you think could possibly be in dispute?

[mkjeeves]

Like always, we all appreciate your contributions and those of the good journalists at The Oklahoman.

Likewise. I read a lot of what you post here, some of your blog and facebook page. I read the TLO occasionally too but I read a lot more of your stuff than Patrick’s, not that there’s any comparison, you occupy vastly different spaces. I know Patrick somewhat and know some of his family well. (We've not spoken about it). I have a lot of respect for the ACLU, but no connection to them financially or otherwise. (We all should send the ACLU some money but I never have.) If I haven't said it enough already, I do respect what Zeke and the DO have done thus far in this bit of journalism.

[tillyato]

I'm not so sure.

Then you'll probably have dueling summary judgment motions. I don't know what factual issues would be in dispute, especially because my position would be that there's no such thing as executive privilege in Oklahoma. I don't really see how depositions and that sort of thing would play into this case, it's a pure legal question. I'm guessing $10-$15K.

Tell me what factual issues you think could possibly be in dispute?

That's a good point Midtowner, I guess the only factual issues could come up if the judge decided that an executive privilege did exist, and the parties fought over whether the facts relating to particular documents made them fall within the privilege or not. If we are just talking about a matter of law decided at summary judgment - whether an executive privilege to the open records act exists - then I think you're probably close to the ballpark at $10-15k, although I would probably say just a bit higher at $20-30k.

[Midtowner]

Media types, if you are interested in giving open records a little more than lip service, I'm down for lunch with any of you. If the ACLU thing stalls out, someone contact me. I'd need a client with standing, which will be much more strong with you media types, but theoretically could be anyone. I'm part of a 2 person firm, so I'd also be interested in meeting with other legal types.

Steve, I really don't buy what you're selling regarding the funds. If y'all looked around, you might've even been able to find an attorney who'd take the case pro bono for a little ink about a lawyer crusading for the forces of good.

[zookeeper]

As for anyone underestimating TLO, that's a big mistake. I am simply amazed how many people say "Did you hear about this and that, it was on The Lost Ogle this morning". Welcome to the real world of New Media, for better or worse.

[mkjeeves]

The Lost Ogle files a lawsuit via the ACLU for the remaining emails.

The Lost Ogle We?re suing the Governor?s Office. I guess that means we?re no longer ?obscure.? | The Lost Ogle

[Midtowner]

So did the Oklahoman lose the phone number for the ACLU?

[BoulderSooner]

i will just point out that even though "most" seem to think the Oklahoma governor is in the wrong this decision was not just her choice... some very smart legal minds including her general council seem to think they have a good case

[metro]

Sounds like she's imitating the "most transparent administration ever".

[Midtowner]

Metro, as happy as you are to chide folks who can't remain on subject, you can't seem to resist making a thread about Mary Fallin's resistance to a FOIA request into something about the President. We get it, you don't like him because he's a Kenyan Muslim Socialist. Keep it in the political forum.

Boulder, the "executive privilege" is certainly recognized by the President. That's obviously not the same as the Governor. Yes, 46 other states recognize this privilege, but I'm not sure whether those 46 states have laws stating what documents are and aren't privileged and specifically exclude this sort of correspondence. I understand her argument is something about the inherent nature of the executive branch. I guess that might play out in other states, but looking through the (very long) Oklahoma Constitution, I don't see anything about the governor's authority to withhold records she deems privileged. Someone could point that out to me if it exists though.

And don't take her lawyer's word as gospel. He's just saying he has an argument and he does. We have yet to find out what the law is on this and I have a feeling it'll be resolved by the Oklahoma Supreme Court.

[venture]

Metro, as happy as you are to chide folks who can't remain on subject, you can't seem to resist making a thread about Mary Fallin's resistance to a FOIA request into something about the President. We get it, you don't like him because he's a Kenyan Muslim Socialist. Keep it in the political forum.

Some people just can't help themselves. It's easier just putting people on ignore making them irrelevant over time as they get fewer and fewer reactions.

Boulder, the "executive privilege" is certainly recognized by the President. That's obviously not the same as the Governor. Yes, 46 other states recognize this privilege, but I'm not sure whether those 46 states have laws stating what documents are and aren't privileged and specifically exclude this sort of correspondence. I understand her argument is something about the inherent nature of the executive branch. I guess that might play out in other states, but looking through the (very long) Oklahoma Constitution, I don't see anything about the governor's authority to withhold records she deems privileged. Someone could point that out to me if it exists though.

And don't take her lawyer's word as gospel. He's just saying he has an argument and he does. We have yet to find out what the law is on this and I have a feeling it'll be resolved by the Oklahoma Supreme Court.

I can't think how much of a slippery slope this will be if this goes to the state Supreme Court and decreed the Governor does have executive privilege. We all expect the shady politics in the national stage, but closer to home we have to keep it as transparent as possible.

[onthestrip]

And don't take her lawyer's word as gospel. He's just saying he has an argument and he does. We have yet to find out what the law is on this and I have a feeling it'll be resolved by the Oklahoma Supreme Court.

Lets just hope it happens before the next governors election.

[BoulderSooner]

Metro, as happy as you are to chide folks who can't remain on subject, you can't seem to resist making a thread about Mary Fallin's resistance to a FOIA request into something about the President. We get it, you don't like him because he's a Kenyan Muslim Socialist. Keep it in the political forum.

Boulder, the "executive privilege" is certainly recognized by the President. That's obviously not the same as the Governor. Yes, 46 other states recognize this privilege, but I'm not sure whether those 46 states have laws stating what documents are and aren't privileged and specifically exclude this sort of correspondence. I understand her argument is something about the inherent nature of the executive branch. I guess that might play out in other states, but looking through the (very long) Oklahoma Constitution, I don't see anything about the governor's authority to withhold records she deems privileged. Someone could point that out to me if it exists though.

And don't take her lawyer's word as gospel. He's just saying he has an argument and he does. We have yet to find out what the law is on this and I have a feeling it'll be resolved by the Oklahoma Supreme Court.

again thank you i always value you take on legal matters ...

just fyi i don't take it as the gov office is correct ... just that they have some smart legal minds that feel they can make a good argument to the court and it is not nearly as much of a black and white issue that some would present ..