Attic ventilation - real world eye-opener.

[Wambo36]

Actually we were in pretty much clay soil. That's why we thought it might be foundation failure. The last thing my insurance wanted to do, after 6 expert opinions (5 of which were their experts), was to drill a hole in the center of our slab and take a 20' core sample from beneath the house. After 9 months and 6 other "experts" agreeing they should pay the claim, I'd had enough. It seemed like a last ditch effort to avoid paying the claim. That's pretty much when I threatened to bring my attorney into it and they agreed to pay for the repairs. All the "experts" agreed the damage was from the flooding and it wasn't that uncommon (first time I'd ever heard of it) when your under slab ducting floods and isn't sealed well enough. Live and learn.
Back to the original topic, a friend put in the ridge vents years ago, when they were first becoming popular. He had them replaced at his first re-roofing because they allowed snow to blow into his attic space. I was told that they made a different design, for areas with more snow fall than we have, that didn't have that problem. Don't know if that is still true or if they have gone to the snow proof design exclusively. I haven't heard anybody complain about it recently.

[SoonerDave]

I was recently told by a green building architect that new homes should never insulate just above the ceiling but should always insulate just below the roof/shingles.

Interesting idea, and it does tend to jibe with the spray foam concept, and even the radiant barrier roof decking idea. In a general sense, though, insulating exclusively under the shingles would make some sense if you have a completely sealed attic cavity. The problems I see with it even in that situation is heat loss through nothing but sheet rock during the winter months. If you have any kind of ventilation in such an attic, you introduce heat in the summer, and that creates a problem for the occupant area of the building below the ceiling.

Interesting information!

[RadicalModerate]

(If you will allow me a curmudgeonly moment . . ? thank you)

If by "green building architect" you mean "new and inexperienced" then the idea of "never insulate just above the ceiling" makes sense. Especially if you want to pay to have all of the cubic footage in your attic heated and cooled. On the other hand if the intended meaning (of just) was "never insulate ONLY above the ceiling, but ALSO between the rafters, under the decking" then the architect would just be Green, in the Pragmatically Correct sense of the term (just). =)

[Bunty]

No kidding!! I felt like an absolute idiot after I built our current home and did not insist on slab-based ductwork. Our ducts are in the attic and I loathe it.

But my contractor said water might get in the ductwork if placed in slab.

[Drake]

Spray foam will increase a home’s value. If I ever move to a different house it will be a mandatory requirement for me.
I had a retro fit spray foam job done just over a year ago and I like it very much.

Sorry but no.

There has not proved to be any difference in the market value of a spray foam insulated home & a more traditional method of insulation.

Sounds like spray foam industry propaganda

[SoonerDave]

But my contractor said water might get in the ductwork if placed in slab.

It's definitely a risk, and we've had someone in this thread have that problem in a very extreme fashion, but most contractors IMHO "sell" this issue in a means to minimize their foundation preparation costs. It's cheaper to throw up a stemwall and/or forms and pour in a slab than it is to have contractors come in on separate occasions to lay out slab ductwork before the base is poured. IN practical terms, I personally consider the leaking ductwork risk to be low. Personal opinion, of course, but as I said, were I building new again, I'd still find that risk worth it.

[SoonerDave]

Sorry but no.

There has not proved to be any difference in the market value of a spray foam insulated home & a more traditional method of insulation.

Sounds like spray foam industry propaganda

Hmmm...there may not be any statistical data backing up an increase in value, but I believe that will come. I also know I'd probably be willing to pay a bit more up front for a spray-foamed home than a comparable conventionally insulated home because of the long-term energy expense savings. My co-worker who just built a 3K sq ft home with a spray-foamed attic is looking at monthly electric bills of something around $75-$100 a month, meaning that delta he paid for that foam is going to be paid back in terms of months, and that has to translate to a value proposition at the retail level eventually.

[drumsncode]

SoonerDave,
Since your house didn't have vents on top, did you see any ill-effects in the attic, other than the heat itself? Is the wood on your soffits in good shape? I've been reading a lot on attics and such lately because I have my own set of problems with ventilation. It's disgusting that a builder would leave off the vents. Attic ventilation is not new technology by any means.

[ou48A]

Sorry but no.

There has not proved to be any difference in the market value of a spray foam insulated home & a more traditional method of insulation.

Sounds like spray foam industry propaganda

Since when has lower utility bills and increased comfort not been a selling point?

Lower utility bills, a stronger structure, lower sound levels = intrinsic values of comfort and certain amounts of monetary value.
Now rather or not people fully recognize either is another story. I believe as more people understand the advantages, values will increase to a point where nobody will question that spray foam is more economical over the long run and more comfortable.

[SoonerDave]

SoonerDave,
Since your house didn't have vents on top, did you see any ill-effects in the attic, other than the heat itself? Is the wood on your soffits in good shape? I've been reading a lot on attics and such lately because I have my own set of problems with ventilation. It's disgusting that a builder would leave off the vents. Attic ventilation is not new technology by any means.

Soffits are all in good shape. Walked around and took a look at each one. I saw nothing in the attic that would suggest to me there had been heat-related damage.

I get a quote from an insulation contractor tomorrow on blowing in a few fresh inches in the attic. Really not sure what to expect on that. I think I have some voids that need to be filled, and know I lost some over my living room area when I punched my foot through the ceiling a LONG time ago while moving a coax TV cable from one wall to another. Never have thought my kids rooms were "right," and I may be calling an HVAC contractor to inspect my ductwork, ensure there are no rips or broken seals.

[drumsncode]

Just make sure the guy doesn't blow the insulation over your soffit vents. I have a feeling that's what they did when they built my house. It's gonna get ugly when I go up there and try to sort it all out, and I really don't feel like crawling around in the attic when it's a hundred outside. Where is October when you need it? :-)

[SoonerDave]

Just make sure the guy doesn't blow the insulation over your soffit vents. I have a feeling that's what they did when they built my house. It's gonna get ugly when I go up there and try to sort it all out, and I really don't feel like crawling around in the attic when it's a hundred outside. Where is October when you need it? :-)

Ohhh yeah. Already thought of that. I've ID'd all the vents, so when the time comes I'll make sure that's part of the deal.

[Drake]

Since when has lower utility bills and increased comfort not been a selling point?

Lower utility bills, a stronger structure, lower sound levels = intrinsic values of comfort and certain amounts of monetary value.
Now rather or not people fully recognize either is another story. I believe as more people understand the advantages, values will increase to a point where nobody will question that spray foam is more economical over the long run and more comfortable.

Didn't say it MIGHT not be a selling point.

But are people going to pay you more for your house than a similar house without the spray foam? Not normally. Now they might buy your house first for the same/similar money.

But that is not increasing the value of the spray foam home

[ou48A]

Didn't say it MIGHT not be a selling point.

But are people going to pay you more for your house than a similar house without the spray foam? Not normally. Now they might buy your house first for the same/similar money.

But that is not increasing the value of the spray foam home

Not all value is about money.
Value can also be about increased comfort. Sometimes the amounts of comfort can influence the type of vehicle we drive or the location of a home we buy. The spray foam blocks out sound better than conventional insulation. But common sense says the monetary value goes up as the number of selling points increases.
I could have also bought a conventional heat and air system but because I could increase my comfort levels at lower operating cost I chose to install a geothermal heat and air system. I have it set on 71 degrees right now.
If ever build or move, foam insulation and a geothermal heat and air system will be minimal requirement because of the value I place on comfort.
But I am pretty sure the monetary values of foam will be better recognized as energy prices increases and the hazards of black mold and bugs in covenantal insulation are better understood.

[ou48A]

A DYS +1 soffit vent tip.

If you are concerned about a blocked soffit vent because of insulation or something else an easy way to check on this is to have someone hold a trouble light on the outside shining it up into the vent. Get very close to the vent and use a ladder if needed.
Someone inside the attic should check and see how much light shines though. Obviously if no or very little light shines though you may have a problem that needs attention.

Depending on the attic it might be best to do this after dark. It would sure be cooler this time of year.

[Drake]

Not all value is about money.
Value can also be about increased comfort. Sometimes the amounts of comfort can influence the type of vehicle we drive or the location of a home we buy. The spray foam blocks out sound better than conventional insulation. But common sense says the monetary value goes up as the number of selling points increases.
I could have also bought a conventional heat and air system but because I could increase my comfort levels at lower operating cost I chose to install a geothermal heat and air system. I have it set on 71 degrees right now.
If ever build or move, foam insulation and a geothermal heat and air system will be minimal requirement because of the value I place on comfort.
But I am pretty sure the monetary values of foam will be better recognized as energy prices increases and the hazards of black mold and bugs in covenantal insulation are better understood.

Fair enough.

But when one says it increases value of your home, most people would think of it from a money point of view. You are speaking from your own value system, which is fine.

Builders & developers have learned around here that while "green" building looks good the marketing materials, it doesn't translate into home buyers being willing to pay more.

[UncleCyrus]

FYI: Under-slab ducts are subject to the vagaries of weather conditions, mostly due to improper addressing, by developers and builders, of natural and unnatural occurances involving either a surplus or deficit of rain and ineffective measure related to drainage. (Under-slab ducts flood and rust. Really. They do. =)

Yes, I am all too familiar with this as well! But I must be luckier than some because my attic ventilation fans are going on 40 years old and I haven't replaced a motor yet.

[drumsncode]

A DYS +1 soffit vent tip.

If you are concerned about a blocked soffit vent because of insulation or something else an easy way to check on this is to have someone hold a trouble light on the outside shining it up into the vent. Get very close to the vent and use a ladder if needed.
Someone inside the attic should check and see how much light shines though. Obviously if no or very little light shines though you may have a problem that needs attention.

Depending on the attic it might be best to do this after dark. It would sure be cooler this time of year.

Thank you. I like this idea.

[WilliamTell]

This is kind of on subject. When we replace our current roof im going back to the older style turbine vents.

At different times in our lives we have lived with both and now currently have the 'newer' style powered fan vents. They do work pretty well but during times of the year like we are having now they run the majority of the day even set at 120 degrees - I've hooked mine up to a timer so it runs from 2-8pm instead of nonstop. They also make alot of noise, (you can hear a slight hum inside the house if you are listening to it, by no means will you have to turn up the tv) and the money they save you in A/C cost are over powered what it cost to run both of them.

The turbines work well for the weather in oklahoma because we always have wind but you do have the inconvience of climbing onto your room and covering them during the winter.

[drumsncode]

This is kind of on subject. When we replace our current roof im going back to the older style turbine vents.

At different times in our lives we have lived with both and now currently have the 'newer' style powered fan vents. They do work pretty well but during times of the year like we are having now they run the majority of the day even set at 120 degrees - I've hooked mine up to a timer so it runs from 2-8pm instead of nonstop. They also make alot of noise, (you can hear a slight hum inside the house if you are listening to it, by no means will you have to turn up the tv) and the money they save you in A/C cost are over powered what it cost to run both of them.

The turbines work well for the weather in oklahoma because we always have wind but you do have the inconvience of climbing onto your room and covering them during the winter.

I would not cover your turbines in the winter. Things I've read say not to do that. Do a little research on that before you go to all that trouble each winter.

[SoonerDave]

I would not cover your turbines in the winter. Things I've read say not to do that. Do a little research on that before you go to all that trouble each winter.

Agree completely. Just about everything I've read says never to cover turbines. My mom has two turbines and she's never covered them, and had no problems.

[Martin]

i recently moved and just got the largest electric bill i've ever paid... the upstairs ac zone struggles to to keep the house at 83 during the day even with the thermostat at 79. i don't know if it's the unit or faulty insulating but i'm crossing my fingers that the home warranty will cover this.

-M

[ou48A]

I know many people say not to do it, but IMHO if you have good air circulation from soffit vents, since it’s so dry and not usually that cold in the winter in OKC covering the turbine vents is usually ok. It’s the buildup of humidity and resulting condensation that causes most problems IMHO. When humidity becomes excessive the condensation can freeze on the bottom side of a roof and rain down. I had always blocked my turbine vents in the winter because I didn’t want blowing snow coming into the attic via a frozen turbine. When l lived on the high plains I knew of examples where snow did blow down frozen turbines and did cause damage. They can also make a very annoying noise when partly frozen.

A Turbine vent covering tip for those who hate roof climbing.
Several years ago when I found out that my then 82 year old father was still climbing up into his attic and walking a decent distance to plug off his wind turbine vents from the inside I devised a better system for him. I fastened a board onto hinges that would close covering the vent. Then I ran 100lb fishing line though eye hooks from the covering board to near a pull down ladder. I put about 10 pounds of weight on the end of the fishing line to hold the covering board shut. I nailed a 2 x4 from the rafters to fasten a place to let the weight hang from. My dad could do everything needed after only climbing a few steps.
Before my dad started covering his turbine vents when the temps were about 10 degrees my dad had frozen pipes. After he started covering his turbines he had no frozen pipes even with -10 degree temps.

I also did this for a time at my own home the inside of my attic was so tall that I actually had to haul a short step ladder into my attic and build a small platform to place the ladder on.

[OKCTalker]

Homeowners in northern climes always ensure that their attics are properly ventilated in the winter, and for several good reasons. That's a lesson for us in warmer areas.

[OKCTalker]

OG+E will conduct an energy audit if you ask them, and they'll make recommendations for energy savings. More information by calling 553-3393 or clicking here: http://oge.com/residential-customers...nergyHome.aspx