Is there room for the NFL in Oklahoma?

[OKCisOK4me]

Look how the Thunder has taken away from OU and OSU basketball attendance (granted the teams are comparatively dismal since the days of Sampson & Sutton). There's not enough wealth to go around to support all these athletic ventures. Then again, who knows. I just think we need a much larger population base, at least 2 1/2 times what it is now.

[Tapp Development]

Like the idea of using the football stadium to increase the appeal of an area. That location does need some help. Barons does sound like a great name for a football team. Hopefully soon others will see the benefits of a football team. It would greatly help downtown OKC grow and bring in new business. Also tourism from Texas for football games would help OKC too.

[adaniel]

The next city to get an NFL team is LA. And that won't happen until maybe the late 2010's.

If OKC was able to swing an NFL team, we would have a market size comparable to Jacksonville or NOLA. The Jags will probably bail in the next 5 years, and it took a freak of nature quarterback and improbable super bowl win to keep the Saints in NOLA. The funny thing is both Jax and NOLA have to compete with huge college followings similar to OKC.

Bottom line: not going to happen. Lets give the Thunder a bad season or two to see if pro sports in Oklahoma is truly viable.

[SoonerDave]

And if you want to get even more technical the Carolina Panthers and Charlotte Hornets were established in Charlotte in the early 90's, when their metro area was barely tipping 1 million people. Its more about how much will the city invest in a team and not the size of the city. The Thunder is a prime example, because people never thought the NBA would work in OKC, now look, we are on the verge breaking barriers!.

And 1990 was 20 years ago, and I strongly suspect the per-franchise population total would be correspondingly smaller. The "investment" issue is a two-pronged sword - the underlying financial support to bring the team in, which comes from corporate sponsors and, perhaps, city incentives, and then the ongoing support to buy season tickets year in and year out. The size of the city most absolutely DOES matter, because it is the key factor in establishing the estimates of disposable income available for entertainment expenses like professional sports. We can put hearts and flowers on the notion all we want, but the ultimate reality comes down to dollars and people, and Oklahoma City doesn't have enough of either to support an NBA franchise AND and NFL franchise.

Additionally, the Panthers have the distinction of *owning* their stadium. It was financed with *zero* public dollars. I can't fathom that there is enough discretionary income in OK to subsidize that kind of project, which involved personal seat licenses a la Jerry Jones. Even if there were, I suspect that support might come at the expense of the NBA team. And I don't see broad support for a MAPS-style subsidized stadium.

Keep in mind that we got the arena downtown on the (extreme) cheap, and it was originally intended for NHL use, not NBA use. We also were in a fortunate position to have a vacant arena available when Katrina blew the Hornets out of New Orleans, and whetted the NBA's appetite for OKC (and vice versa). Those were fortuitous moments in OKC history, the dominoes aligning perfectly. It would take a great deal more of those dominoes for the NFL to happen.

[SoonerDave]

Bottom line: not going to happen. Lets give the Thunder a bad season or two to see if pro sports in Oklahoma is truly viable.

Excellent point. I remember going to OU games in the mid-90's when things were bad, and that 75K-seat stadium that I had grown up accustomed to it being filled every week was barely over half full, endzones barely occupied, and sitting in my choice of upper-deck chairback seats. It was sad. The Athletic Department hemorrhaged money in those days because the football team wasn't bringing in the $$ to subsidize all the other sports.

The point being is that when the Thunder has a down year or two, which is bound to happen, it will be interesting to see what happens to fan support.

[Oil Capital]

According to the 2000 Census Charlotte had roughly 1.3 million people in their metro, and had both NBA/NFL.

That is false. In the 2000 census the Charlotte metropolitan area had 1.5 million people.

[Oil Capital]

And if you want to get even more technical the Carolina Panthers and Charlotte Hornets were established in Charlotte in the early 90's, when their metro area was barely tipping 1 million people. Its more about how much will the city invest in a team and not the size of the city. The Thunder is a prime example, because people never thought the NBA would work in OKC, now look, we are on the verge breaking barriers!.

The Charlotte Hornets started playing in the 1988-89 season, when Charlotte's' metropolitan area was about 1.1 million. (1990 census had them at 1.162 million).

The Carolina Panthers started playing in 1995, when Charlotte's metro population stood at about 1.3 million, a little beyond "barely tipping 1 million".

It's also certainly noteworthy that one NBA team moved out of Charlotte a while after the NFL came to town.

Since that time, Charlotte has grown rapidly to 1.75 million people and is still ranked as overextended.

[BrettM2]

And if you want to get even more technical the Carolina Panthers and Charlotte Hornets were established in Charlotte in the early 90's, when their metro area was barely tipping 1 million people. Its more about how much will the city invest in a team and not the size of the city. The Thunder is a prime example, because people never thought the NBA would work in OKC, now look, we are on the verge breaking barriers!.

The Hornets left Charlotte in 2002, so there was only about 7 years overlap for the two teams. The Hornets have been in New Orleans since 2002 (minus 2 years spent here). Considering the most likely scenario is yet another move, it doesn't reflect well on small market cities with multiple teams.

I would much rather be San Antonio (one franchise, very well supported) than Charlotte (lost NBA) or Atlanta (multiple teams, support varies even with large population base, just lost NHL team). There is a huge difference between 18,203 per game (NBA) than over 60,000 per game (NFL). Sixteen teams have stadiums between 60,000 and 70,000 seats, with two (Candlestick in SF and Metrodome in Minneapolis) facing immediate replacement and three (StL, Jax, Oakland) facing at least the threat of relocation.

This is a nice thing to think about, but reality should be easy to find: OKC is growing and growing fast, but not into the realm of supporting the monster that is the NFL. Tickets are not cheap, anywhere. A new stadium is in the high hundreds of millions of dollars, generally requires PSLs before tickets are even bought, and concessions are some of the highest of any entertainment industry in the country. It is out of our league right not, and honestly, that is ok. There are 32 NFL teams. New York and the Bay Area each have two, so only 30 markets have one. We aren't LA. Let's get another million people before we start talking about this like it could happen.

[Oil Capital]

And if you want to go by CSA, by 2020 that puts OKC in the 1.5 range...

And Charlotte's CSA is currently 2.4 million. Indianapolis's (the other small, overexteded market) current CSA population is 2.1 million.

[G.Walker]

The Hornets left Charlotte in 2002, so there was only about 7 years overlap for the two teams. The Hornets have been in New Orleans since 2002 (minus 2 years spent here). Considering the most likely scenario is yet another move, it doesn't reflect well on small market cities with multiple teams.

I would much rather be San Antonio (one franchise, very well supported) than Charlotte (lost NBA) or Atlanta (multiple teams, support varies even with large population base, just lost NHL team). There is a huge difference between 18,203 per game (NBA) than over 60,000 per game (NFL). Sixteen teams have stadiums between 60,000 and 70,000 seats, with two (Candlestick in SF and Metrodome in Minneapolis) facing immediate replacement and three (StL, Jax, Oakland) facing at least the threat of relocation.

This is a nice thing to think about, but reality should be easy to find: OKC is growing and growing fast, but not into the realm of supporting the monster that is the NFL. Tickets are not cheap, anywhere. A new stadium is in the high hundreds of millions of dollars, generally requires PSLs before tickets are even bought, and concessions are some of the highest of any entertainment industry in the country. It is out of our league right not, and honestly, that is ok. There are 32 NFL teams. New York and the Bay Area each have two, so only 30 markets have one. We aren't LA. Let's get another million people before we start talking about this like it could happen.

7 years is a long time to have 2 pro sports teams, moreover, the Charlotte Bobcats came shortly after that in 2004. Nonetheless, my point is that Charlotte was able to sustain and NBA/NFL team with a metro population under 1.5M.

[Oil Capital]

7 years is a long time to have 2 pro sports teams, moreover, the Charlotte Bobcats came shortly after that in 2004. Nonetheless, my point is that Charlotte was able to sustain and NBA/NFL team with a metro population under 1.5M.

The problem with your point is that they apparently were not able to sustain NBA/NFL teams with a metro population under 1.5 million; hence the Hornets moved out.

By 2004, when the Bobcats started, the metro Charlotte population was up to 1.5 million. And again, even with another 250,000 people added since then, they are still one of the metro areas that is "overextended".

And you are also conveniently ignoring that Charlotte's CSA adds a huge chunk of additional population... another 1/2 million+.

[G.Walker]

We could go back and forth about this all afternoon, but I do think by 2020 Oklahoma City could support and NBA/NFL team. You have made some good points though, and you are entitled to your own opinion, I guess we have to wait until 2020, lol.

[onthestrip]

Nope. There was a huge stink when OU announced it would not sell alcohol in the suites because of state law. Alcohol can be served by private entities supplying their own stock. Several folks who had contributed supposedly threatened to sue, claiming OU had represented that alcohol would be available. Bottom line, no alcohol sales.

Dont think it has anything to do with state law, OSU sells alcohol in the club level of Boone Pickens Stadium. Not much to do with this story but incoming big 12 school West Virginia sells alcohol throughout the entire stadium.

[SoonerDave]

Dont think it has anything to do with state law, OSU sells alcohol in the club level of Boone Pickens Stadium. Not much to do with this story but incoming big 12 school West Virginia sells alcohol throughout the entire stadium.

Its been a state law issue for as long as I can remember. In fact, OU reportedly turned down a multi-million-dollar advertising/sponsorship agreement with a major beer outfit several years ago for precisely the same reason....

[onthestrip]

Its been a state law issue for as long as I can remember. In fact, OU reportedly turned down a multi-million-dollar advertising/sponsorship agreement with a major beer outfit several years ago for precisely the same reason....

Well then I guess OSU is breaking the law. Or more likely OSU is selling it in a way that is considered legal.

[Snowman]

Look how the Thunder has taken away from OU and OSU basketball attendance (granted the teams are comparatively dismal since the days of Sampson & Sutton). There's not enough wealth to go around to support all these athletic ventures. Then again, who knows. I just think we need a much larger population base, at least 2 1/2 times what it is now.

So you realized that the attendance drop was due to the teams being terrible the last couple years, but went on to try and make it sound like it was the Thunder anyway.

[OKCisOK4me]

Well then I guess OSU is breaking the law. Or more likely OSU is selling it in a way that is considered legal.

As far as I know, it is an NCAA rule and violation to sell alcohol. There is no way that West Virginia sells alcohol legally. As far as I know, the only reason it could be done legally is if the school in question holds their games in a professional venue. We all know that bowl games sell alcohol. Big XII Tourney games sell alcohol. But if it's at a school, it will not happen--for the general public. Those in suites, yes. Cause my complaint is if I paid $1,400 for a suite ticket I better damn well be getting to drink free alcohol!

[OKCisOK4me]

So you realized that the attendance drop was due to the teams being terrible the last couple years, but went on to try and make it sound like it was the Thunder anyway.

Basically, all I was saying is that it's really hard for alumni or fan of said programs to spread their wealth out between their college and their pro sports franchise, especially since the median household income of OKC is something like $35,000. So, think about adding a football team?

[Oil Capital]

As far as I know, it is an NCAA rule and violation to sell alcohol. There is no way that West Virginia sells alcohol legally. As far as I know, the only reason it could be done legally is if the school in question holds their games in a professional venue. We all know that bowl games sell alcohol. Big XII Tourney games sell alcohol. But if it's at a school, it will not happen--for the general public. Those in suites, yes. Cause my complaint is if I paid $1,400 for a suite ticket I better damn well be getting to drink free alcohol!

That is not correct. The NCAA has no rule about alcohol being sold at games, except for NCAA championship events.

[Oil Capital]

Dont think it has anything to do with state law, OSU sells alcohol in the club level of Boone Pickens Stadium. Not much to do with this story but incoming big 12 school West Virginia sells alcohol throughout the entire stadium.

I think they only sell 3.2 beer. The following is copied and pasted from OSU's website:

Alcoholic Beverages – Suite Level

Alcoholic beverages are not permitted to move in between Suite & Club Levels – either direction.
Alcoholic beverages within the stadium, fall under either 3.2% & below OR above 3.2% by volume. Low-point beer represents 3.2% & below / High-point beer, wine, spirits, liquors, and other similar products represent above 3.2%.
Low-point beer (3.2% & below alcohol) is not included in any Base Package - additional charges apply under certain restrictions. OSU Cowboy Dining retains all permits & licenses required for exclusive rights to provide all 3.2% & below alcoholic product. Orders for such product must be submitted by the Tuesday before each game day, and will be stocked into your suite after payment approval.
In the case of requiring additional 3.2% product during an event, ordering & processing must occur via your suite attendant. However, Cowboy Dining does not maintain a large inventory of 3.2% product so there can be no guarantee that your additional order can be fulfilled.
Please note - there are 2 policies regarding the service & billing of 3.2% product that are unique to this product only. Inventory transport restrictions, return policies, and expiration dates must all be considered when establishing stock within each suite. Cowboy Dining will provide inventory levels after the 5th – 8th home game of the season, or at any time upon request. No refunds will be awarded for 3.2% & below alcoholic product, regardless of situation.

Once ordered & processed, 3.2% product has been paid for (“owned”) by the Suiteholder; however, Cowboy Dining retains storage & inventory responsibility. No 3.2% product that has been purchased through Cowboy Dining may be removed from BPS at any time.
3.2% product that is “ordered” on a game day will be immediately charged directly to the suite holder’s information on file. Transfer of funds – cash, check, credit, or other – will not be allowed on gameday. If an alternate payment option is required, details must be arranged the week prior.
Alcoholic product above 3.2% by volume – high point beer, wine, spirits, etc - remains the sole responsibilityof the suite holder through the purchase, stocking, serving, and inventory process. Oklahoma State University, OSU Cowboy Dining, and all related support organizations cannot - by law – become involved in any capacity for this type of alcoholic product.

Alcohol service guidelines will be determined on an event-by-event basis by Oklahoma State University. All laws pertaining to the service of alcoholic beverages will be enforced, including regulations concerning the consumption of alcohol by minors or intoxicated persons. OSU Cowboy Dining and Oklahoma State University reserve the right to check for proper identification and to refuse or terminate service at any time. All alcoholic beverages are to remain in your suite, and are not welcome on the public concourse.

[dankrutka]

As far as NFL teams coming to OKC, I do think its possible within the next 10 years. By 2020, the Oklahoma City MSA would be around 1.4 million, and OKC population would be around 700,000, that's a large enough population base to support an NFL. Moreover, the population base gets larger if you include metro areas within 2 hours driving distance with fans that will attend games from Wichita and Tulsa metro areas. Also, you could get a decent fan base from rural cities in Oklahoma. As far as stadium, it would roughly take about 2-3 years to construct decent sized stadium. The City could easily conduct funds through public/private investment to build a stadium. They could start constructing it in 2018 and could be operational by 2021. If we didn't have the AHL called the OKC Barons, I would name the NFL team the Oklahoma City Barons, but since that name is taken, I would go with the Oklahoma City Buffaloes/Bison

Disagree. According to detailed studies, you need 1 million per pro sports team. OKC will need to get to 2 million...so maybe in 50 years.

[dankrutka]

We could go back and forth about this all afternoon, but I do think by 2020 Oklahoma City could support and NBA/NFL team. You have made some good points though, and you are entitled to your own opinion, I guess we have to wait until 2020, lol.

So we don't have to go back and forth anymore... You're wrong.

[OKCisOK4me]

That is not correct. The NCAA has no rule about alcohol being sold at games, except for NCAA championship events.

Ok Oil Capital, thanks for adding me to your list of people who need to be corrected because they didn't do their research on the internet. Much appreciated, lol

[Hawk405359]

The NFL is a bigger animal than the NBA, and you can't use the Thunder's success as evidence that an NFL team would do well. NFL takes more capital on both the ownership level and fan level. OKC has a lot more growth to do before it even gets to "outside chance."

[Oil Capital]

Ok Oil Capital, thanks for adding me to your list of people who need to be corrected because they didn't do their research on the internet. Much appreciated, lol

LOL I was a little confused about that issue too. I thought I had recently read that selling alcohol at college games was not allowed by the NCAA. But a quick search showed that to not be the case.