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Thread: Seattle Still Pissed

  1. #26

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOKC View Post
    But rabid football and basketball fans make for some pretty unreasonable grownup people.
    That's true anywhere in the country.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    best way to do this? Stop bringing it up...regardless of what side people are on. Don't even mention it and move on. The complex people get of needing to "have the last say" is what keeps rehashing something that should be over and done with.
    agree

  3. #28

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOKC View Post
    But rabid football and basketball fans make for some pretty unreasonable grownup people.

    There are shots to help cure that ... buckshot for one.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    I didn't say anyone was being a douchebag. But if you put all the anti-Seattle sentiments together while going there it would come off that way, ie, wear a Thunder shirt in Seattle for reactions and then treat everyone like depressed crybabies who should just get over it.

  5. #30

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Some of the misinformation given by the shuttle driver in Seattle include:
    1. "Tulsa" built the Thunder a new arena to play in.
    2. The Sonics were traitors after Seattle promised to build a new arena for them.
    3. People of OKC can't be trusted.
    4. Most of Seattle was finally glad the Sonics left and said, "don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you."

  6. #31

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Maybe some folk are just pissed because it rains so much, but having zip control over it, they need a scapegoat.
    Maybe not.

  7. #32

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    It all boiled down to the fact that the owners got tired of losing money and the city was completely intransigent about the lease. If the city had rewritten the lease to allow the owners to at least break even we probably wouldn't have anything to talk about. Plus basketball was the sports stepchild: the Seahawks and Mariners got new stadiums and the Sonics didn't. And the straw that broke the camel's back was the city not so politely telling David Stern to ****off when he tried to help. He's a bad man to cross. He refused to allow the Grizzlies, Trailblazers and Hornets to move under equally dire economic circumstances because the cities played nice.

  8. #33

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Now betts, you know as well as anyone that what you are saying isn't entirely the truth either, esp when you state that a new stadium wasn't built for the Sonics when they were built for the other pro-sports teams. The fact is, the Sonics got their new stadium first. It was still being paid for and they wanted a new one? The lease they had was perfectly acceptable by the parties when they signed it. The City had at least 3 offers on the table that required various levels of financial input from the owners, starting at NOTHING. The more the owners were willing to commit, the more the City would and the more revenue would go to the team. Schultz declined and decided to sell the team instead. Those offers were still on the table for Bennet. He declined. A remodel was perfectly acceptable to Stern (he even went to the legislature to secure funding). Then when Bennet bought the team, a remodel was not acceptable, only a new facility would do. At one point Bennet stated that the owners wouldn't be willing to contribute anything even for a new arena. Then he said that they were willing to use about $100 million of naming rights money (to a building they don't own, so it wasn't even their money but the Seattle's). Stern changed his position and supported Bennet. Then after the Sonics relocated, Stern changed his position again and said a remodel would work to get another team. Wouldn't be at all surprised if a new owner demands a new arena, Stern will flip-flop again. There was only 2 years (?) left in the lease anyway.

  9. #34

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Larry, the readers don't want to again hear a discussion of your platform versus mine, and there are quite a few facts glossed over in your post above, leading to as many "errors" as you say mine has. Let's narrow it down to this: Seattle wasn't willing to spend the money to keep the Sonics and Oklahoma City was willing to give the money to get them. Whether that's right or wrong depends on how much of a sports fan you are, or how much you think having a sports team benefits a city. If it comes down to the same issue here someday, then we'll get what we pay for. Seattle fans should be angry because they never really had a chance to vote on whether they wanted to build a new arena to replace the outmoded Key, unless you consider Initiative 91 their chance to vote. If so, they voted against subsidies and they lost the team. They found out you can't get something for nothing when it comes to the NBA. Right or wrong, until cities buy their own teams, owners get to decide where a team is located and all the high flown discussions of what is "right" or "fair" are just words.

  10. #35

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Betts, they don't have to read either one of our posts. However, you know I am not going to let the kind of misinformation you continue to perpetuate, stand unchallenged. You want to put in your two cents, yet get ruffled if someone disputes what you posted with the actual facts. Facts that you are aware of. Opinions are all well and good but they need to have the facts to support them. Please let me know which part of my post was factually incorrect. If I left some point out, so be it, trying to stick to the error itself, offering some background with it. I pointed out where yours was in error. Just trying to keep you from repeating the same errors. Just as if whomever is saying #1 above ("Tulsa" built the Thunder a new arena to play in), was presented with the correct facts (it was OKC and the majority of the voters agreed to fund the remodeling of a 5 year old building...they didn't get a new arena ... at least not yet) and they continued to keep repeating the misinformation. Did I say anything in that post about it being "right" or "wrong" or "fair"? Who was getting "something for nothing"? Seattle had paid and was still paying for it when the continued demands came their way. IIRC, I-91 did not prohibit subsidies, but it did require a ROI. Just as a bank requires that you pay back the loan.

  11. #36

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Well then, you might change your post to show that the Sonics got a remodel, not a new arena. And Ackerman was the owner who agreed to the terms of the contact, not Schultz, so the "both parties" who agreed to the contract were not both present at the time of the sale. Regardless, these are philosophical differences, not right and wrong, here. You have one point of view and I another, but the people in Seattle with your point of view don't have a team. And that's the bottom line.

  12. #37

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    And many Seattleites don't welcome Okies visiting their city...

  13. Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Guys, just look on the bright side... Seattle is closer to Yellowstone.

  14. #39

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Well then, you might change your post to show that the Sonics got a remodel, not a new arena. And Ackerman was the owner who agreed to the terms of the contact, not Schultz, so the "both parties" who agreed to the contract were not both present at the time of the sale. Regardless, these are philosophical differences, not right and wrong, here. You have one point of view and I another, but the people in Seattle with your point of view don't have a team. And that's the bottom line.
    betts: Granted it was built on the same footprint as the previous, and kept the same roof line, nearly everything else about it changed. This wasn't just a "remodel" by any stretch of the imagination. It was completely gutted to the support beams, they even lowered the floor of the arena by 35 feet. Didn't each successive owner of the Sonics know what the terms of the lease/contract were? Weren't those terms transferable? So yes, each party agreed to the terms even if they weren't present when originally signed. If they didn't agree, they should have negotiated new terms as a condition of the purchase or not make the purchase at all.

  15. #40

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    It was a poor remodel, whether basically from the floor up or not. Have you ever been in the Key? Ever been in the AA Center in Dallas? The Key feels and looks old and it's built like an arena from a different generation. But again, who cares about any of that? It wasn't financially feasible for the owners to have a team there and so there isn't. The fans in Seattle can whine and moan, but they made no attempt to make it financially feasible, nor did their government, so the team left. There's no owner loyalty when a city doesn't care if they lose money or not. And there won't be here either. You don't care and I do, so I'll vote one way and you'll vote another. Whether we've got a team here in 20 years or not will depend on whether more people feel like me or more feel like you. There's really nothing to discuss until there's something to vote about.

  16. #41

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    [QUOTE=betts;465918]It was a poor remodel, whether basically from the floor up or not. Have you ever been in the Key? Ever been in the AA Center in Dallas? The Key feels and looks old and it's built like an arena from a different generation. But again, who cares about any of that? It wasn't financially feasible for the owners to have a team there and so there isn't. The fans in Seattle can whine and moan, but they made no attempt to make it financially feasible, nor did their government, so the team left. There's no owner loyalty when a city doesn't care if they lose money or not. And there won't be here either. You don't care and I do, so I'll vote one way and you'll vote another. Whether we've got a team here in 20 years or not will depend on whether more people feel like me or more feel like you. There's really nothing to discuss until there's something to vote about.[/QUOTE]

    Betts, I feel like You!!

  17. #42

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Moving teams to a new city is nothing new in the NBA:

    1960: Minneapolis Lakers moved to Los Angeles
    1971: San Diego Rockets moved to Houston
    1971: San Francisco Warriors moved to Oakland
    1979: New Orleans Jazz moved to Utah (Salt Lake City)
    1984: San Diego Clippers moved to Los Angeles
    2001: Vancouver Grizzlies moved to Memphis
    2002: Charlotte Hornets moved to New Orleans
    2008: Seattle SuperSonics moved to OKC

  18. Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I don't really have a dog in this fight, don't care about pro-sports all that much and didn't keep up with the boys who brought them here but in case you forgot, or never knew, the accusations were the new owners came to town, lied to everyone and left with the team. I'm sure that bad press left a life long impression about OKC on a few in Seattle, justified or not. Did the owners really do anything to attempt to repair that damage or did they not really care, sour grapes, we don't need Seattle etc?

    E-mails obtained by lawyers for the city of Seattle show Sonics owners were talking enthusiastically last April about moving the franchise to Oklahoma City — despite telling the public and the NBA they were still interested in keeping the team here.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...onicsheds.html
    Double Edge, think about it. People won't agree with how things were handled by Clay Bennett and it was obvious his underlying intention all along was to move the team from Seattle to OKC, but you have to view the entire picture.

    1) Mayor Mick Cornett visits NBA headquarters in the early 2000's to discuss a possible expansion franchise. Is told repeatedly that's not an option. Even gets laughed out of the office on one occasion. So we've now established that an expansion team is out of the question.

    2) Hornets temporarily relocate to OKC during repairs from Katrina. Success motivates Clay Bennett to make an offer to George Shinn. George Shinn refuses.

    3) Howard Schultz puts the Sonics up for sale. Clay Bennett purchases the team, and almost immediately the bloggers and sportwriters, namely from Seattle, begin attacking Clay Bennett's character before he even announces any plans about the team.

    4) Clay Bennett announces his intentions to keep the team in Seattle, provided they come up with a plan for a new arena (or remodel, I can't remember which). Bloggers and sportwriters don't change their tune about Bennett, or about people in Oklahoma, who somehow got dragged into the mess.

    5) After several proposals on the table, a cold attitude from the public and no clear picture from Seattle's local leaders on financing a new arena, it's already clear to Bennett that Seattle won't work out, as long as he's the owner.

    6) Deadline passes, Clay announces the team will relocate to OKC. After entering into a settlement agreement with Seattle and dealing with an attempted lawsuit on behalf of Howard Schultz, the team relocates in 2008.

    Clay Bennett bought the team with a two plan approach. Move the team to OKC if things don't work out in Seattle. If Seattle DID surprise him, he probably would have sold the team back to another owner for a profit and approached Shinn with an even bigger check. And he knew Seattle wouldn't build him an arena. Let's get serious about this. As I have asked dozens of times before, what would Clay have done if Seattle cemented a proposal for a new arena before the deadline? I agree Bennett should have been upfront about his intentions, but that wouldn't have changed a thing about the attitude the national press or Seattle has toward Oklahoma, sports or no sports. Deal or no deal, they didn't like the fact that an Okie was the owner of their team. Plain and simple.

    Has anyone even considered approaching this strategically without framing it in politics?
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  19. #44

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Quote Originally Posted by okcpulse View Post
    Double Edge, think about it. People won't agree with how things were handled by Clay Bennett and it was obvious his underlying intention all along was to move the team from Seattle to OKC, but you have to view the entire picture.
    No need to recap (and leave out a few pertinent facts.) Besides having lived through it while not really being a sports fan, I did pick up most of the pieces as they happened. I also just spent 2 hours the other night watching the movie linked upthread. Did you? I don't read sports blogs and I could care less what they had to say from the git-go.


    Point repeatedly ignored, the perception of many in Seattle is the operators in this deal were not upfront with the people of Seattle, which seems to be well documented and not believably explained away by those involved. You can yammer on and on about how good it was for OKC, how it was going to happen anyway, which may all be true, but it isn't going to change the way it went down, with one thing said to the people of Seattle, while actions and emails show intents were otherwise.

  20. #45

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    ...basketball was the sports stepchild: the Seahawks and Mariners got new stadiums and the Sonics didn't.
    I think this is the bottom line. Seattle thought it was New York, L.A., or Chicago. It's not. None of their sports teams are upper-tier, so they were ripe for one of them to be picked off. I think there are several villians in this situation. After the success that the Hornets had in OKC, it should have been no surprise that we'd go looking for a team. So, when Clay Bennett was looking to buy the Sonics, Seattle HAD to know that there was a target on their back. Did Bennett lie about his intentions for the Sonics? Yes, I believe he did. However, IMHO, the people of Seattle, their city officials, and the owner of Sonics passed up an opportunity to "speak now or forever hold your peace" when all this started going down. I also think David Stern needs to be tossed into the mix because the move would never have happened without his support. Everyone can point fingers as much as they like, but it's just going to be a big circle.

  21. #46

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    No need to recap (and leave out a few pertinent facts.) Besides having lived through it while not really being a sports fan, I did pick up most of the pieces as they happened. I also just spent 2 hours the other night watching the movie linked upthread. Did you? I don't read sports blogs and I could care less what they had to say from the git-go.


    Point repeatedly ignored, the perception of many in Seattle is the operators in this deal were not upfront with the people of Seattle, which seems to be well documented and not believably explained away by those involved. You can yammer on and on about how good it was for OKC, how it was going to happen anyway, which may all be true, but it isn't going to change the way it went down, with one thing said to the people of Seattle, while actions and emails show intents were otherwise.
    Since we're now discussing this, it doesn't really matter what Clay Bennett said in private e-mails that were never meant to be made public (although I agree it was foolish of them to put anything of a sensitive nature in an e-mail). If Seattle had built an arena, the Sonics would still be there. Clay Bennett might or might not be the owner, but it wouldn't manner. They would still have a team. David Stern wanted a team in Seattle more than in OKC and it was only the rudeness and intransigence of city and state politicians that caused him to give in and allow the team to move. It was not in the NBA's best interest to have a team in OKC rather than Seattle and so it was with the greatest regret, I can guarantee you, that he allowed it to happen. If Stern had sniffed an arena deal in Seattle, Bennett could have filled the world's e-mail inboxes and the team would never have moved.

  22. #47

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    No one knows what would have happened "if" what happened didn't happen. Probably Okies wouldn't be getting bad lip when we go through Seattle though.

  23. #48

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    If the boys hadn't lied and been caught at it...

    If the new owners number one priority from the git-go wasn't to move the team...

    If the past owner had not been disingenuous with the fans about not selling the team to a group who's number one priority was to move the team...

    If the city hadn't settled over the broken lease...

    etc...

    The fans would probably still be pissed. But they would have less to be pissed about IMO.

  24. Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    If the boys hadn't lied and been caught at it...

    If the new owners number one priority from the git-go wasn't to move the team...

    If the past owner had not been disingenuous with the fans about not selling the team to a group who's number one priority was to move the team...

    If the city hadn't settled over the broken lease...

    etc...

    The fans would probably still be pissed. But they would have less to be pissed about IMO.
    I agree, but I saw the documentary. There was a need for a recap because both sides are guilty and people fail to see Seattle's shortcomings. My point in the recap is that Seattle began bashing OKC before Clay even announced his intentions. Fans included. People need to quit playing the victim in this whole fiasco. I felt remorse for Seattle until I began paying attention to how people there felt from the get-go. Blogs, media, fan mail, documentary, whatever. It's worthless to me if disgusting things are being said from the other side of the fence immediately after the sale itself was announced.

    The fans aren't even pissed about a bunch of emails. That's just fuel for the fire. They are pissed because their team was 'stolen' from them. If they were pissed about losing the team, fine. But the onslaught of blanket trash talk is a turn off. So, my position is this. Clay Bennett bought the team. He approached Seattle about a new arena or relocate the team to OKC. Seattle failed to produce an arena. Team relocated. It's history now.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  25. #50

    Default Re: Seattle Still Pissed

    They can join the club: The Pilots, Colts, Dodgers, Giants, Senators, Clippers, Spurs, Grizzlies, Hornets, etc. It happens. I feel bad for the fans, just like I feel bad for the fans of any team that moves. However, psychological health is all about moving on: time for them to move on and either work towards getting another team or celebrate the fact that they're saving ALL that money. Personally, every time I buy something in OKC it makes me happy to think that I'm paying for more new things for the city. That included our arena and upgrades. Looking good......

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