OKC's Outdated Inferiority Complex

[betts]

The problem with the buses is that the routes aren't logical and the waits are too long. The other day I saw someone sitting at the bus stop when I went in to the supermarket. When I got out, after doing a full shop, he was still sitting there. We don't have covered bus stops, and we have no signs giving routes or times of buses. We need to completely reform the bus system to make it attractive to people who want to ride not because they have no choice, but because they'd rather not drive.

[PennyQuilts]

The problem with the buses is that the routes aren't logical and the waits are too long. The other day I saw someone sitting at the bus stop when I went in to the supermarket. When I got out, after doing a full shop, he was still sitting there. We don't have covered bus stops, and we have no signs giving routes or times of buses. We need to completely reform the bus system to make it attractive to people who want to ride not because they have no choice, but because they'd rather not drive.

If a bus doesn't have a good route to work, I certainly understand not taking it. What I am talking about are people who are advocates for public transportation skipping the busses when the route is relatively reasonable. For example, if you are going downtown, by all means, take the frickin' bus. It may not be as convenient as a car - it never is unless you are in a situation where there is no parking - but that isn't the point. And if you have to end up walking 4 - 10 blocks, what is the big deal? That is normal even in NYC. And good for you. Anyone using public transportation to go to places beyond major intersections or tourist attractions is used to that. It is how any public transportation system works and one of the biggest selling points that it is healthier for people. How many times have we heard comments about fat Oklahomans who drive everywhere? Using the system in place to demonstrate that it is viable is the way to lead a movement. If people wait around until there is a door to door commute before they start using it - and using it consistently - it will never happen.

[Soonerus]

I think more people hope the rest of the country does not learn how great is here than any other attitude. You will always have your negatives and haters in any community...

[adaniel]

The problem with the buses is that the routes aren't logical and the waits are too long. The other day I saw someone sitting at the bus stop when I went in to the supermarket. When I got out, after doing a full shop, he was still sitting there. We don't have covered bus stops, and we have no signs giving routes or times of buses. We need to completely reform the bus system to make it attractive to people who want to ride not because they have no choice, but because they'd rather not drive.

Agree completey. In this neck of the woods, buses=poor and everything that comes with it (crime, decay, etc.) and therefore not worth the investment. Which is a travesty considering how many people even here in car loving OKC don't have decent transportation on their own.

Of course trains=cool. I guess they make you feel like your a big time executive living in NYC. Even when I was living in Dallas I would notice how the buses even at rush hour were 60-70% empty while you couldn't get a parking spot at the DART Rail Station. Trains are neat but buses will always be more practical for most people. They are worthy of the investment.

[Pete]

I've lived in L.A. for 21 years and have never taken a bus, yet have driven to a Metro (subway) or MetroLink (commuter line) train station hundreds of times.

Trains/subways/trams/streetcars attract tons of people that would never step foot on a bus.

[betts]

Agree completey. In this neck of the woods, buses=poor and everything that comes with it (crime, decay, etc.) and therefore not worth the investment. Which is a travesty considering how many people even here in car loving OKC don't have decent transportation on their own.

Of course trains=cool. I guess they make you feel like your a big time executive living in NYC. Even when I was living in Dallas I would notice how the buses even at rush hour were 60-70% empty while you couldn't get a parking spot at the DART Rail Station. Trains are neat but buses will always be more practical for most people. They are worthy of the investment.

There was an interesting comment on one of the streetcar sites. Apparently in Portland people will let a bus go by to take the streetcar to the same destination, even if they have to wait.

I have no problem with walking. I walk every day and I drive very little. But, I do require some information about when buses will arrive. Something as simple as a sign with the route and times of operation on it would go a long ways towards increasing bus traffic.

[Spartan]

Awesome posts Spartan. This forum needs a like button.

Grazi!

I'm just sorry that the public transit advocates aren't using it all that much, now. I am always happy to see riders on our buses, and not just the ones who are too poor to afford a car. IMO, the best advocate for public trans would be the ones out using what we already have and taking their friends along - and not just on a lark but for real. Move near a line, take it to work consistently. We have bus lines - use them.

I'm going to take your interest in the bus system at face-value (hopefully that's not a mistake), but I have a feeling that you don't really know that much about the bus system, based on what you are saying here. Most streetcar advocates are also advocates for bus system reform, and if this is something you feel strongly about, I would encourage you to do some research and get involved to try and raise interest in bus system reform as well.

You probably weren't aware, but the Modern Transit Project group, the grass roots advocates of the downtown streetcar system (I am not a member, but have met with them a few times and ran into them around town) actually had a multi-part transit overhaul plan, the streetcar being only one component of that. They also wanted to make bus reform and other transit reform a priority, and have still been "looking out" for commute rail prospects. The point is that OKC needs multiple transit modes to come together in order to efficiently serve such a sprawling city with a high degree of density diversity, differing situations for different parts of town.

This isn't a dig so much as just a joke, but you said you're always happy to see riders on our buses--well I hope that doesn't mean you're never happy Lol. There are some serious problems with OKC city buses. The obvious problems are that the buses are always 15-20 minutes late, and don't post route information anywhere--the reason is because the routes are too unreliable. Secondly, we don't have bus lines. We have bus routes. The difference is that they mostly connect odd ends of town to the bus hub on Hudson.

In order to reform the buses, we will need to clean up the actual bus fleet, get buses to miraculously run on time, switch to a grid system (buses stay on one street and go up and down across town on say, just Penn, or just May), probably embrace bicycles, and we desperately need to focus on a maximum service area and anything beyond this core area should not be guaranteed decent bus service. It also needs more operational funding. The problem here is that operational funding is very expensive for bus systems, whereas it's virtually negligible for streetcar systems. MAPS can fund a capital expense, it can not come up with operational funding, so the funding mechanism is perfect for funding a streetcar system. Bus funding will however have to come out of the city budget or a dedicated transit tax or something like that.

Hopefully I didn't mistake your interest in the bus system as genuine and not just a ploy to detract from the streetcar. But I do firmly believe that different modes of transportation must interact and compliment each other. Of course a good solution isn't to go from totally relying on a car to totally relying on a streetcar, although that's probably not even possible. The most exciting thing about the streetcar though is that you can build a city around it. It will build up the part of town within 3-4 blocks of the streetcar line. In this regard, while still being a revolutionary transit component, it will do much more for city planning in OKC than it could possibly do for transit, which is still great.

[Questor]

I agree with the comment that there is a perception here that buses = poor people. Actually that is a perception issue everywhere. I also wish that our bus system was improved and that we would jump-start passenger rail service. The thing that strikes me odd about this city is that the government on occasions makes it very clear that they would like for people to retire here and that they want to be friendly towards older folks. There are so many elderly in our city, especially near the core downtown, who are too old to drive anymore who are dependent on relatives or friends shuttling them around. We could improve the quality of life for them so much if we had sufficient mass transit; they would not have to rely on others/services/programs/etc. if there was a setup like that. I know for a fact that many of them won't ride the bus not because a stop is far away, but because they are too old to wait outside in an open stop area in 100 degree heat for 30 minutes. Because they have trouble walking up steep bus steps and are too proud to ask the driver for help or embarrassed to take any wheelchair-accessible entrys. Trains offer an advantage in that I can't think of one that I have ever ridden in other states where the train entrain wasn't level with the floor when you get on. That has a lot of advantages to the elderly. Yes older cities that have el trains pose a problem, but modern cities such as Los Angeles have elevators and escalators to such train depots.

The sad fact about our city is that it is not well designed for either the young and adventurous or the old and infirm. It's really just set up for those middle years when you have a family. That to me does not seem like a sustainable strategy for us.

I actually like it here a lot. To take it back to the original poster's comment, for me I get frustrated when I see things which seem like such simple problems, or such common sense "well yeah that's the problem right there" issues that we as a city just sort of ignore and pass by year after year. I also know that a lot of people who don't like it here are coming from Texas, and I think that is really just a commentary on how well Texas does certain things with common-sense approaches to so many government managed things. I think it also has a lot to do with the amount of people and money they have as compared to us... basically unless you're from New York, California, or Illinois you are not coming from a state that is better off from a people/government standpoint than Texas. I also think that is why a lot of times some out of town-ers don't understand the frustration... I think a lot of our country is exactly like Oklahoma. I also think that is why so many Oklahomans don't understand why newcomers are not as frustrated as them with a lot of the things that go on here... they go on everywhere.

[PennyQuilts]

Like I said, it would be nice to see people use the public transportation that is already available. I get that street cars are cool. Especially in nice weather. But the reasons for a city wide public transportation system is to give people a cost effective, more green option besides driving a car or taking a cab. That it is less cool than a train or a streetcar is recognized, but this is about a lot more than that, seems to me. And actually USING the system instead of just dismissing it is far more likely to change both the reality and the negative stereotypes.

Buses are often late but so are subways. That is just the way city buses are, anywhere. It is just as difficult to wait at a streetcar stop as it is to wait at a bus stop. I don't expect people to take a couple of extra hours to get to work because that isn't a system that works. But as I said, for trips downtown, the mall, routes that are reasonably close to your job, or whenever you can, if someone is actually in strong favor of public transportation - and not just because it is cool but for all the other reasons we read about - I wish more people would take advantage of it. I mean, if someone cares enough to say it is important, they should be willing and interested in showing public transportation is a viable option.

As far as buses just going in crime ridden neighborhoods, that just isn't so. Buses, everywhere, are a pain, but they'll work. You can take them to the mall. Our main arteries are covered. You can take them downtown. You can take them to city public events. You can make a transfer with no more effort here than anywhere else, including a streetcar. I've used the bus here, and I've used the crosstown bus in Manhattan as recently at in March. I didn't see that much difference, if any. If they are willing to use them in the Big Apple, the king of mass transit, I can't imagine why so many advocates aren't willing to put up with some inconvenience to use them here.

By a show of hands, who among us has even looked at the Metro bus schedule? I hope people will check it out.

http://gometro.publishpath.com/schedules

Until those passionate about mass transit are willing to lead with their feet instead of just their voices, people on the fence will continue to avoid buses because only poor people allegedly ride them. So ride them, already. It would be nice to get trains and streetcars, but selling the value of public transportation needs to come before, not after. Any of those improvements are years away and a lot of people are skeptical of the whole notion of public transportation in OKC. Showing that we have a population that is willing to give up their cars and accept the inconveniences of mass transit would go a long way towards reassuring people that they aren't just throwing their money away on a boondoggle.

[ljbab728]

I've lived in L.A. for 21 years and have never taken a bus, yet have driven to a Metro (subway) or MetroLink (commuter line) train station hundreds of times.

Trains/subways/trams/streetcars attract tons of people that would never step foot on a bus.

My brother has lived in L.A. for about 30 years. He sold his car a few years ago and uses a bus exclusively for going any distance. They have a fantastic system though. All buses are equipped with a GPS system. He can either check on the website or use a phone app which shows where any bus is at any time and when it will be a particular stop. He never has to wait long at a bus stop.

[Double Edge]

My brother has lived in L.A. for about 30 years. He sold his car a few years ago and uses a bus exclusively for going any distance. They have a fantastic system though. All buses are equipped with a GPS system. He can either check on the website or use a phone app which shows where any bus is at any time and when it will be a particular stop. He never has to wait long at a bus stop.

That's how my kiddo keeps up with buses in Chicago.

[Spartan]

Oh my god. It keeps going on...
Buses are often late but so are subways.[/quote]

Wrong.

It is just as difficult to wait at a streetcar stop as it is to wait at a bus stop.

Wrong.

By a show of hands, who among us has even looked at the Metro bus schedule? I hope people will check it out.

Give me a break.

Until those passionate about mass transit are willing to lead with their feet instead of just their voices,.........would go a long way towards reassuring people that they aren't just throwing their money away on a boondoggle.

Wrong on all counts.

[ljbab728]

Oh my god. It keeps going on...
Buses are often late but so are subways.

Wrong.


Give me a break.



Wrong on all counts.[/QUOTE]

You're absolutely right, Spartan. There is no reason to settle for mediocre. As I mentioned when talking about the L.A. system, some cities can do it right and there is no reason that OKC can't.

[PennyQuilts]

Well, then. So bus system in OKC is deemed crappy, which is why the mass trans advocates feel justified in simply ignoring it and advertising its bad reputation, justified or otherwise (and I am still unconvinced that most people even bother to use the system once they get that idea in their head). I am reading that buses are inconvenient, uncool and no one likes them. And I am reading that our bus system is different than bus systems elsewhere. And that appears to be accepted as a justification for not using it. Is that pretty much what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying that buses work in other places - just not here because we have a crappy system. Did I misunderstand the position?

But our streetcars and light rail - yeah, buddy. That will be different.

And why is that, again? Why will streetcars and light rail work well but buses don't? If buses work in other cities but not here, why would street cars and the like work here? And if buses are useful in other towns, why in the world aren't the mass transit folks trying to revamp our metro bus system to bring it up to par? It sounds to me like they have written it off and are doing nothing but offering the same sorts of excuses that drivers, everywhere, use to avoid public transportation. Someone please explain to me if I am simply not understanding the argument that buses (while working elsewhere) are crappy in OKC so we should just shun the system, but street cars and light rail will be cool and run well.

[Double Edge]

One other related issue is sidewalks. There are none between my work or home and the nearest bus stop, which is several blocks away from both. Big mistake OKC let that happen, IMO. However, there is a steady stream of people slogging through the weeds, snow, mud, wet grass and whatever to get up and down the street, including to the bus stop. AFAIK most or all of the suburban stops do not have anywhere nearby to lock up a bike either, nor are they enclosed for some weather protection.

So how many people who can do otherwise want to slog though whatever and stand around in the mud, rain, whatever and wait for a bus? As I said, my kid in Chicago usually watches the GPS app on his phone and times his walk to get to the stop just in time to catch one.

Chicago:

[Double Edge]

My nearest stop...outdated and inferior.

[jmarkross]

My nearest stop...outdated and inferior.

Nice neighborhood. I'd be more concerned about the Boulder-Dam-type array of power lines overhead that might make passengers hair stand on end whilst awaiting a ride...

[Double Edge]

Nice neighborhood. I'd be more concerned about the Boulder-Dam-type array of power lines overhead that might make passengers hair stand on end whilst awaiting a ride...

NW 10th just east of Council Road. AFAIK that is the farthest west stop for this area. Within a mile radius of it there is a bit a diversity that could feed into it. East and SE is sh!tty apartments, shuttered apartments and cheap houses. SW is condos and a next tier of single family dwellings. NE is a step up with fairly nice homes, maybe $100 to 175K, or more for the ones on acreages. NW is nicer homes, many on acreages, say maybe $150k to 350K. No one has sidewalks to get from home to the bus stop and much of the walking is along commercial property frontage.

[PennyQuilts]

NW 10th just east of Council Road. AFAIK that is the farthest west stop for this area. Within a mile radius of it there is a bit a diversity that could feed into it. East and SE is sh!tty apartments, shuttered apartments and cheap houses. SW is condos and a next tier of single family dwellings. NE is a step up with fairly nice homes, maybe $100 to 175K, or more for the ones on acreages. NW is nicer homes, many on acreages, say maybe $150k to 350K. No one has sidewalks to get from home to the bus stop and much of the walking is along commercial property frontage.

Oh, I lived just up near 16th and Rockwell for over twenty years so am very familiar with that area. It was dodgy twenty years ago but has gotten awful in the past ten. Quite blighted and that's a shame because there used to be some lovely areas nearby. Would you expect that the streetcars would ever come out that far or are buses the only thing in that area's future? Because street cars need sidewalks and decent stops, too.

[Double Edge]

Yes, 10th street to Melrose, Council to Rockwell is dodgy. North of 10th from the lake to Council isn't. North of tenth, Council to Rockwell is a good neighborhood too for the most part.


I can't speak for the whole system, I haven't looked at it nor taken an OKC bus since I was 10 when I rode it to the downtown Y fairly regularly, but stops I have noticed look just like that one. Little access, no shelter, uneven and usually unpaved ground coming, going and waiting. It isn't that way in other places that seem to work where walking and masstrans are the norm.

The last time I looked at a schedule for the one in this neighborhood there was nothing that would fit my needs either.

[ljbab728]

And why is that, again? Why will streetcars and light rail work well but buses don't? If buses work in other cities but not here, why would street cars and the like work here? And if buses are useful in other towns, why in the world aren't the mass transit folks trying to revamp our metro bus system to bring it up to par? It sounds to me like they have written it off and are doing nothing but offering the same sorts of excuses that drivers, everywhere, use to avoid public transportation. Someone please explain to me if I am simply not understanding the argument that buses (while working elsewhere) are crappy in OKC so we should just shun the system, but street cars and light rail will be cool and run well.

PQ, I don't think anyone is proposing that the bus system be shunned or abandoned. If there are things that could be improved it should certainly be pointed out though. A viable bus system is very important to mass transit in OKC in conjunction with other systems being planned or hoped for. When our bus system was planned it was never subjected to the same scrutiny as the street car system. It developed (if that is the word for it) over many years with many different plans for the most effecient or cost effective operation. Obviously it is not a perfect system and attention for improvements is merited.

[okcpulse]

But he lost me with "We still brag about our highways." When did we ever start doing that unless it was to venture out of state and discover highways worth bragging about?

Bunty, Bunty...

Lake Hefner Parkway
Broadway Extension
I-35 from SW. 15th to Moore
And soon... The new Crosstown Expressway

What is it going to take to give credit where credit is due? My goodness gracious.

[okcpulse]

My nearest stop...outdated and inferior.

I've seen those in Houston on 43rd and Bingle.

[Larry OKC]

I'm just sorry that the public transit advocates aren't using it all that much, now. I am always happy to see riders on our buses, and not just the ones who are too poor to afford a car. IMO, the best advocate for public trans would be the ones out using what we already have and taking their friends along - and not just on a lark but for real. Move near a line, take it to work consistently. We have bus lines - use them.

I understand what you are saying PennyQuilts. Someone had posted an experience they encountered with the Mayor a few years ago. He was on some sort of promo photo-op type of thing with a City bus (trying to encourage ridership). The bus broke down and the Mayor was whisked away in an SUV or something to that effect. If City leaders (Mayor, Council, City Manager on down the line) want a fundamental change in the citizens, leading by example might go along way.

Think along the lines of Chesapeake. They want people to make the switch to CNG, so they are leading by example and are making/have made the switch to their company cars.

[kevinpate]

Jumping into this conversation late but I just wanted to say here here! I have been taking the bus to work now every day and I live at 50th & Lincoln and am working downtown. I can honestly say, I am very close to selling my car and going car-free. For all the flaws our transit system has ( and I could list many), it does work and it works pretty well.

In the times I used the system to/from Norman and inside OKC, I've had no complaints other than no availability in the evening hours. If you went car-free, what do you do about after 6? Cab and friends?