Some negative observations on OKC (warning: negative)

[Larry OKC]

Stay warm where you're going and once you return, when the day-um, what to do today hits you, remember three little words ... Lake Stanley Draper.
Whether you wanna photog it, boat it, kayak it, 3 wheel it, horsey it, corpse hunt it, hike it, bike it, picnic it, or some combination of the above, you can make a day of it.

Is it good for any of that right now (other than the "corpse hunt")? Isn't Stanley Draper under repairs and they have lowered the water level substantially? t least that is what I remember seeing on the Cityview cable channel all the time.

[SkyWestOKC]

Steve, why stop at a thousand? Make it 5,320 of them.

Spartan, don't take offense to my post, absolutely none is intended. You come off to me as an extremely dedicated, and passionate person. But also someone who seems to use a lot of emotion in their thoughts. Not that that is a bad thing, but it can lead to impulse decisions. I would really hate for OKC to lose you over that. If you really did love OKC, you probably wouldn't abandon it. See where I am going?

At times I see myself thinking the same thing, it seems for each step forward the city takes, we take a leap backwards. Other times, I am in awe at how fast our city is advancing. We are a very young city, you have the opportunity of your life laying before you. OKC needs you, you have vision and determination. You have pride and passion -- not many like you, not in this city. You can be a very small fish in a very large pond in a larger city that has already made the steps you could be making in OKC today. We are 100 years behind most cities, in many cases more than that. Our state was established barely a hundred years ago.

But at the end of the day, it's up to you. Is OKC really for you? I can't decide that, Steve can't decide that....your mother can't decide that. It's up to you, and I would be hard-pressed to fault you for making a decision to leave OKC. I wish you much luck, and with your attributes, you will no doubt be successful no matter where you end up.

-Matt

[Urban Pioneer]

Very kind comments indeed! Thanks Nick. Steve, as someone who intimately knows about illegal signs, it's easier to go put them in his yard then take them out! Lol

Spartan, my advice is to follow your heart and your gut. I moved here 11 years ago to escape monotony. I felt trapped in Texas. I found the momentum and possibilities intoxicating. I remember debating with myself about whether I wanted to live somewhere that "was built" or be part of "building it". I'm proud of what has happened and the seeds that have been planted.

I would be willing to move. But I can't. The tethers of life tie you down. Relationships, friends, finances, and jobs start to weigh down your choices. Take pride in what you have fought for. Particularly sticking to your principals.

But go "live it up". Live where you feel at peace and that offers you the quality of life that you desire. Relish your 20's and put the public service time in later.

[krisb]

I, too, lament Oklahoma City's struggle to create meaningful places and spaces. Someone once said that real artists can find inspiration anywhere, even close to home. It's hard to find those inspiring places driving in a car, but believe me...they are there. The small neighborhood park with a few kids playing, the sunset west of Lake Hefner, taking a stroll through the Paseo Arts District, sharing a soda with a friend at POPS, high-fiving a complete stranger at a Thunder game...and the best is yet to come.

[Doug Loudenback]

Nick, I'm glad that you posted what you did. Good-byes are good to make though many don't ever make them and just "go." You are still quite young so your future may land you in places that you don't even presently imagine, maybe even here in Oklahoma City, and I'm sure that you are on the precipice of a great adventure. Your future is well ahead of you, and I hope that it is all good, and I wish you my very best. Find a girl that you love happily ever after, have some kids, and have a great life. And come back to visit when you feel so inclined. If you do, you'll probably find that Steve Hunt and Sally Kern still live here ... but, hey, who can say?

I also thank you for what you have done here and by "here" I mean not only this forum but your own earlier one, and elsewhere on the internet. You have done much to promote the city. I know of none as young as you who have made a greater contribution to the city. I will miss hearing your thoughts.

God bless and fare thee well.

[kevinpate]

Is it good for any of that right now (other than the "corpse hunt")? Isn't Stanley Draper under repairs and they have lowered the water level substantially? t least that is what I remember seeing on the Cityview cable channel all the time.

While it's not near on as purty as spring and summer, and it's not perfect, but their is a nice upside ... way fewer drunks and punks out and about in the off season.

[Rover]

Spartan, we will miss your presence here for the time being, but hopefully not on this board. You bring a valuable perspective and legit opinions along with some educated skills.

As for this city, I must say it grows on you. Over the years the companies I have been associated with have recruited quite a few high level employees and moved them to OKC. Many from places like Toronto, Chicago, and a number of eastern cities. Usually there has been a progression...year one, they hate it; year two, they believe it is just okay here, and by years three or four they don't want to leave and go back home.

What makes this city great is its totality. Its foundation is the people, not the buildings or streets. And while that sounds cliche, it is absolutely true. Oh, there are friendly people everywhere, but OKC is a special place. There are certainly cities with bigger and more buildings, and streets in better repair, and more people jogging, and with beautiful mountains surrounding and, and, and,.... However, OKC is still a wonderful place to be.

I may be crazy, but I have spent my entire adult life after moving to Norman to go to school, living in Tulsa or (mostly) OKC. I have spent the last 35 years working in virtually every medium to large city in the US, and have worked and traveled in most of the great cities of the world, in about 35 different countries. I have had the opportunity to move to some other great cities. And each time I wind up choosing OKC.

I am in the midst of getting two companies formed in OKC whose owners are from Los Angeles and Chicago. They were hands down in favor of estabilshing OKC as our world headquarters. Other people get it.

That said, we should strive to make our city more livable for the great people who occupy it. In that regard, I sincerely hope you come back home and help make a real difference and help keep improving our professional populace. We need creative young thinkers who bring us workable ideas. We need a little idealism. We need to keep growing and you can help us. If you need to live elsewhere and experience different things, that will do nothing but add to the portfolio you bring back home. Go do it, but come on back. We need people like you.

[UnclePete]

OKC would be better if it weren't run by the Chamber of Commerce.

[Steve]

Yeah. God knows those 550 Boeing employees will destroy this town. And Whole Foods will destroy the I-44 and Western Avenue area.

[dismayed]

Yeah. God knows those 550 Boeing employees will destroy this town. And Whole Foods will destroy the I-44 and Western Avenue area.

You guys in the media give the Chamber way too much credit. One of the two programs Boeing is moving here already had major operations in OKC and had for over a decade; that is why it ultimately made sense to move here. By your own reports and through company press releases they made the decision to move even before they had approached the chamber to negotiate incentives. In the case of Whole Foods, they had been looking for a location in OKC for some time. That isn't to say that Chesapeake or the Chamber didn't have some influence with them, especially when it comes to location. But I think what is portrayed in the media is, to be kind, wildly over-stated.

[dismayed]

Spartan it's your life, the decision is yours. If you are posting here clearly you are seeking feedback, so I'll give mine. OKC is a good place if you are a bit older and have a family. It's almost perfectly setup for that scenario. If you are a bit younger and single, and have a lot of money, it is also a great place to live as you can buy a lot of land, put a huge house on it, and basically have your own park or tennis court or whatever it is that floats your boat. If you are young and single it really isn't that great of a place to live. It has gotten better, but it still has a long, long ways to go. The population of post-college young professionals is just dismally low here. Go to any bar after work during a traditional happy hour or join a young professionals group and you will see that is apparent. It's just not a good place to look for a significant other based on sheer numbers alone. The city is slowly warming up to Gen X and Y matters, but not quickly enough. The configuration of our cities and how businesses are laid out, a lack of viable downtown housing for the younger folks, the slow innovation in our restaurant culture when the younger generation is all about trying out new things (how sad that we only got our first tapas restaurant a few years ago after about a decade of popularity in other places), and a lack of high-quality businesses of just about any genre would scare any Gen Yer away.

But the thing is, all of the above could be changed if more Gen Yers just decided to stick around. At some point, the demographic becomes so strong businesses cannot continue to ignore their needs, especially when that group in the next few years will have the largest amount of disposable income available to them of any other group. Sticking around would be hard though, and it might mean giving up your own desires and making the place a better city for the next generation to come. You might effect change, but it might come too late for you, for your current life stage. But then you'll probably be in a place where OKC is a pretty good fit for where you are at. In the meantime, where OKC might lack in its partying ability there is certainly a vacuum that dearly needs to be filled with young leaders who have fresh ideas for this city, or for their personal businesses.

So really it sort of boils down to how you want to spend your 20s. Who is Spartan, and how does he want to spend the early years of his life?

[Jethrol]

Spartan, as I read your post I couldn't help but think "unfulfilled expectations". I'm left wondering how your day would have played out had it not been for those people playing tennis....if you had actually been able to get in a good workout because you never mentioned that. I had a good friend that told me, "When you have unfulfilled expectations and you're bummed out about them, simply change your expectations." I've used that plenty in my life.

It's a well known fact that exercising produces endorphins and we get addicted to them....when we don't get the rush we want, we're disappointed.

I know, I know....your post is not based on one day and you've been feeling this way for awhile.....just thought I'd put it out there.

Anyways, everyone needs a change in life. Hell even the best of friends have to take a break from time to time. Ever had a best friend that you absolutely wanted to strangle then a few weeks later, you can't get enough of hanging out with them? Well...the same can be said for cities.

Try to remember the good times and let the bad times go. It sometimes seems inauthentic but how are negative emotions more authentic than positive emotions? They aren't.

OKC has really progressed and I for one love the changes we've been making. I live in far N OKC and didn't realize what a gem the myriad gardens are until I worked downtown. I started eating lunch in the park and on weekends would drive down there to hang out and watch people and nature. It was awesome and I can't wait until all the construction is finished and we can once again enjoy this park.

Good luck on your journey and try not to be too harsh when you speak of OKC. Remember, there's no value in bashing the city except to reinforce your disappointments. Move on with your life and let go of your disappointments with OKC. If your journey brings you around these parts again....awesome.....we'll welcome you back. If not, well I hope you find a place that is more to your liking.

[Larry OKC]

As with family, he probably will defend OKC to outsiders more than any one (but can talk freely about us, amongst ourselves). "I can say anything about my Mother because she is MY Mother, but don't you dare say anything bad" type of thing.

[Steve]

I'm not worried in the least that Spartan will be anything less than the proudest ambassador for Oklahoma City.

[okcpulse]

Spartan it's your life, the decision is yours. If you are posting here clearly you are seeking feedback, so I'll give mine. OKC is a good place if you are a bit older and have a family. It's almost perfectly setup for that scenario. If you are a bit younger and single, and have a lot of money, it is also a great place to live as you can buy a lot of land, put a huge house on it, and basically have your own park or tennis court or whatever it is that floats your boat. If you are young and single it really isn't that great of a place to live. It has gotten better, but it still has a long, long ways to go. The population of post-college young professionals is just dismally low here. Go to any bar after work during a traditional happy hour or join a young professionals group and you will see that is apparent. It's just not a good place to look for a significant other based on sheer numbers alone. The city is slowly warming up to Gen X and Y matters, but not quickly enough. The configuration of our cities and how businesses are laid out, a lack of viable downtown housing for the younger folks, the slow innovation in our restaurant culture when the younger generation is all about trying out new things (how sad that we only got our first tapas restaurant a few years ago after about a decade of popularity in other places), and a lack of high-quality businesses of just about any genre would scare any Gen Yer away.

But the thing is, all of the above could be changed if more Gen Yers just decided to stick around. At some point, the demographic becomes so strong businesses cannot continue to ignore their needs, especially when that group in the next few years will have the largest amount of disposable income available to them of any other group. Sticking around would be hard though, and it might mean giving up your own desires and making the place a better city for the next generation to come. You might effect change, but it might come too late for you, for your current life stage. But then you'll probably be in a place where OKC is a pretty good fit for where you are at. In the meantime, where OKC might lack in its partying ability there is certainly a vacuum that dearly needs to be filled with young leaders who have fresh ideas for this city, or for their personal businesses.

So really it sort of boils down to how you want to spend your 20s. Who is Spartan, and how does he want to spend the early years of his life?

My concern is that many people in OKC spend too much time telling Gen X and Y that they would do better in other cities rather than encourage them to stick around and make their mark in our local culture. The professors at UCO did it when I went to college their, teachers in high school did it, and even their peers encouraged them to move to Dallas or DC or wherever.

Let's say that over a span of five years, 10,000 young professionals left for other cities. Imagine if they were encouraged to stay and create businesses of their own. That would be 10,000 more individuals that would be ganging out at local establishments after hours, 10,000 more votes for thing like maps and selling wine in grocery stores, 10,000 more customers at Whole Foods or Crest Fresh Market. The climate is better today in OKC for such people to make that decision on their own. But it certainly would help if so many people in our city weren't so self deprecating.

[Steve]

OKC Pulse, I share your concern. In the 1980s it seemed as if the city's educators were determined to see ALL their best students go elsewhere. That was the vibe at least.

[PennyQuilts]

It is so sad to lose a lot of really good people in their twenties and early thirties. Many would stay if we had a proud culture instead of one that was constantly poor mouthing ourselves - and I speak of the universities and a lot of us folks on the street. It is a perception problem, IMO. I heard the same sort of "Oklahoma is just a rednek, boring, backwater, stupidass state" growing up and even though the city has made amazing - just amazing - progress, you still hear the same old stuff. Improvements that make my jaw drop at the progress are dismissed as insignificant or not enough by a lot of the young who just don't realize how incredible it is to have come this far, this fast. Oh well. I'm so damned proud of this city I could explode. And I tell that to anyone I can hold down. Maybe in a few years, we'll have reached a point where more of our young people stay. We are fortunate that so many come back.

[Taggart]

I feel that I can definitely relate to you, Spartan. In my situation, however, I'm a few years out now. I left 5 years ago to live in Los Angeles and Orlando. Here's my take:

My work in theme parks has led me to consult for a few cities in the past couple of years. I mainly worked with cities that were successful to an extent, but couldn't seem to find the "shine". Always, ALWAYS it would remind me of OKC. I had a lot of time to think and compare and figure out just what it was that I, personally, disliked and felt that if I had the voice or chance, that I could improve.

The cities that I consulted with would always hire me to get a piece of Disney's "successful magic" into their processes. They always thought that there was some magic formula, a simple fix that they could implement to create a communal consonance. They spend all of their resources comparing themselves to other cities and coming up with numerous solutions as to why they were not successful. The debate process itself was part of the problem. As designers, I think we subconsciously recognize that this problem is abundant in OKC, but most can't put their finger on it. I sure didn't, until I educated myself from the outside.

Oklahoma City is a terribly incestual bubble. Now before I get "flamed", I don't mean this as an insult in any way. What I am saying is that it's incestuous in attitude for the sole reason that OKC people are desperately trying to shape, form, and protect a "OKC culture". For the longest time, OKC has not had a defined voice amongst other US cities, but it is trying.

And here lies OKC's #1 problem: in an effort to define the city as "purely OKC", most community planners and leaders in the city are looking to other cities for influence and precedence. The oxymoron is that in an attempt to make OKC individual, they have made a patchwork of the ideas and methods used in other cities. Thus, it doesn't have a voice at all!

Oklahoma has the population, resources, and potential to grow. The only way it can IMPROVE is if city planners and designers can ask the question: "What is the purpose and function of a city, and how can we re-define that definition using our own original resources."

Every successful design has that thought process at its heart and until OKC can think like that, well... it'll be the OKC that we know.

Canals, streetcars, curves, and towers are all very cool, but without being original or the right fit for a particular place, it ends up looking like a coffee table book of US vernacular.

I love OKC as much as the next person here, but boy does that city need an intervention...

[earlywinegareth]

Hmm, well Rome wasn't built in a day. OKC today is immensely better than 15-20 years ago. I wouldn't trade it for anything, and that's my point...I started my career living in a smallish city in the deep South. I hated it. There are dozens upon dozens of places like it across the country. Moving back here 13 years ago and being a part of what's happening now is incredible. Go live in a crap place for awhile then come back and see how it changes your outlook.

[mcca7596]

Hmm, well Rome wasn't built in a day. OKC today is immensely better than 15-20 years ago. I wouldn't trade it for anything, and that's my point...I started my career living in a smallish city in the deep South. I hated it. There are dozens upon dozens of places like it across the country. Moving back here 13 years ago and being a part of what's happening now is incredible. Go live in a crap place for awhile then come back and see how it changes your outlook.

It seems like Taggart was simply saying Oklahoma City needs more originality and organic growth. I don't think he was implying it hasn't come a long way from 20 years ago.

[earlywinegareth]

I wasn't replying to taggart...mainly responding to the whiners and critics...it's so much easier to criticize than come up with something constructive.

[betts]

I understand what you're saying, Taggart, but one of the problems with Oklahoma City is that it is geographically about as uninteresting as you can get. It's flat, it has no mountains, no oceans, no bluffs. It has a river, but that river wasn't even a river when we started trying to remake ourselves. Since it is ridiculous to think of terraforming to improve our city, we have to make do with what we have. The second problem is that we're young. We don't have a couple of centuries of growth and change to create a unique flavor. We have our western and Native American heritage, but if you overdo that, you do end up being a pseudo-Disneyworld. I think the Native American Cultural Center will be just about enough emphasis on Native American culture and if we can create another entertainment district in the Stockyards, which I would like to see, that will be enough western heritage. Every tower is unique, and there is nothing wrong with enjoying the creation of unique structures. Oklahoma City had streetcars, and one of the more extensive streetcar networks before we were foolish enough to dismantle it. So, going back to streetcars and looking at original routes when doing so is a way of reconnecting with our past, not an attempt to copy what other cities are doing. Although the canal is not original, it's interesting and I must confess I enjoy it when I see it. It's enabled us to create a unique and appealing part of Oklahoma City in Bricktown.

I think we're doing fine. Obviously I would like change to be instantaneous, but that's precisely when it develops a flavor of artificiality. Every city in the world was once young, and what makes them original is growth by layers, over years. We'll make mistakes, but some things will endure and in the end, they will be what defines us.

[mcca7596]

Gotcha, sorry; definitely agree that it takes more effort to say something positive.

There are areas that have more things to praise than criticize, perhaps somewhere like Spartan is going. It all depends on one's perspective though.

[earlywinegareth]

I don't think there is a need to create an OKC culture or identity. We already have one...a western city built on oil, manufacturing, and agriculture. What we want to be is a modern city with great amenities. Look around, isn't that what we've been doing the past 20 years?

People are being way too impatient. The expectations of some are incredibly unrealistic. Yet, go talk to people in other cities and they wish their city was doing some of the things we are.

[Jethrol]

My concern is that many people in OKC spend too much time telling Gen X and Y that they would do better in other cities rather than encourage them to stick around and make their mark in our local culture. The professors at UCO did it when I went to college their, teachers in high school did it, and even their peers encouraged them to move to Dallas or DC or wherever.

Let's say that over a span of five years, 10,000 young professionals left for other cities. Imagine if they were encouraged to stay and create businesses of their own. That would be 10,000 more individuals that would be ganging out at local establishments after hours, 10,000 more votes for thing like maps and selling wine in grocery stores, 10,000 more customers at Whole Foods or Crest Fresh Market. The climate is better today in OKC for such people to make that decision on their own. But it certainly would help if so many people in our city weren't so self deprecating.

I can tell you from first hand experience this is changing.

I attended UCO for the first time in the late 80s, early 90s and you're correct.....many if not most of the professors were telling the students they should plan on moving to get the good paying jobs. Back then it was known as the "brain drain" and unfortunately it was true. There were just soo many opportunities in other cities that it didn't make financial sense to stay here....at least for many people it didn't.

However, I went back for a second degree in 2004 and was surprised to hear the dialogue has changed. Many professors were talking about the big companies, government and medical jobs that are available here now. These jobs were either scarce before or simply didn't pay very well.

Companies like Chesapeake and Devon have had to attract talent from other markets and are more willing to pay higher salaries than many companies in OKC. This has helped to raise the salary for everyone because local companies that want to attract the talent from those big companies will have to pay more. They're also recruiting on the local campuses more. Unfortunately we need to up our education standards also.

UCO's Computer Science department has changed radically over the last 10 years. They previously had local professors that held an iron grip over the department and simply wouldn't change. Now we have newer, younger professors that come from places like China, Hong Kong and other countries and they're raising the standards. Now for beginning and programming 1 students, they are required to take a lab with the regular course work. This is LONG overdue but better late than never.

UCO's CS major has also become ABET accredited which imposes standards and helps to drive adherence to standards that are established for all ABET accredited schools. In technical degrees, this is a VERY valuable accreditation and will make the graduates better able to compete in the market place. I couldn't be more thrilled to see this. The sector I see most lacking in OKC is high tech and I'm extremely hopeful that this will help drive some new, high-tech companies to consider either relocating here or opening up shop here.