Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

[MGE1977]

What is unfortunate Wambo is the use of a public initiative as a lobbying tool. Being primarily a Democrat, I normally support unions. But is the lack of how to use power wisely and negotiate with our elected officials responsibly that totally turns me and many of your regular supporters off.

It is a complete mis-use and lack of political skill that defies all logic.

Again, it is unfortunate that you might change your opinion of us based on this issue. Public initiative has been used to challenge us for years.

Yearly we sit down to negotiations with a city who wishes to do harm to standards that are necessary for proper and safe functioning of the Public Safety services. Yearly the City chooses to push us back. Not a fault of theirs, because theirs is a job of counting beans and making sense of large numbers in trying times. This year in particular, the city chose to kill all hopes of good faith negotiations with fire while simultaneously pushing an initiative that would take tax monies and distribute them to luxury items.

We want the trust of the citizens we serve and who pay our paychecks. We do not like to fight, but this public initiative as you termed it was used to club us at the negotiating table. The city is attempting to bludgeon us with this public sentiment, all the while backing us into a position with no other reprisal than a counter on this stage. We cannot strike, will not strike because that goes contrary to the oathes we all took, and took seriously. What we have is good faith negotiations.

The city is trying to wrest the only card we have left, public opinion, when in reality, their non-committal to good faith talks is what let you down. They refuse to adhere to a plan in their proposal, circumlocution, tapdances around spending your money and at the same time they deny the dire circumstances in which PS finds itself today.

Why would you let them spend your money in such a manner?

[kbsooner]

Yes, an absentee is available but you must act quickly! Also, if you aren't already registered to vote, that deadline has passed.

Keep OKC Moving - Vote Yes for MAPS on December 8!

Absentee Voting
The deadline to apply for an absentee ballot is rapidly approaching! Your county election board must receive your absentee ballot application form via mail, fax or hand-delivery (if yours is the name on the form; you may not deliver an application for someone else) by 5 PM Wednesday, Dec. 2 if you want to vote by mail. Your county election board must then receive your ballot before 7 PM on Dec. 8 to be counted. If an absentee ballot is mailed to you, you must return it by mail also. See the state election board’s page on absentee voting for more details.

Absentee Voting

Oklahoma County Election Board | 4201 N. Lincoln Boulevard | Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73105-5201
Phone (405) 713-1515

Thanks for the info, I'll be getting my yes vote faxed in Monday!

[Urban Pioneer]

Your rhetoric amazes me. MAPS expands the sales tax revenue. It is a proven vehicle for doing so. Thus your share of the pie is automatically expanded.

When people are losing their insecure jobs, who need work.... If MAPS passes it means a combined 1.6 Billion in reinvestment with the Devon contsruction in our community.

If someone wants a job shoveling sand it will be available. I have found my personal experiences with Police and Fire to be extraordinary. They do their jobs well here.

But this is the wrong time for UNION selfishness. Average people need jobs/MAPS creates jobs. So enough with the selfish woe was us bolded rhetoric.

[Wambo36]

Your rhetoric amazes me. MAPS expands the sales tax revenue. It is a proven vehicle for doing so. Thus your share of the pie is automatically expanded.

Once again, you are ignoring history. The position we find ourselves in today came during very good economic times for the city. You might want to call your City Manager and ask him what happened to the windfall we were supposed to see from the other MAPS proposals. Ask him what promises were made to get the PS employee unions to donate tens of thousands of dollars to promote and advertise for previous MAPS ballots. Then ask him why they weren't kept when our "share of the pie was automatically expanded".
Your logic is sound. Unfortunately it's not the way the city management conducts business.
I agree, there is never a good time for these types of skirmishes. But this is where we find ourselves.

[HOT ROD]

wambo, I just think there should be another venue for it instead of this MAPS vote.

why don't you all just sit down and duke it out next year? What does MAPS have to do with your issues? Isn't it really solely against the mayor and the establishment?

And I asked the question on a different thread, but I will ask you - could they just revise the contractural obligation of overtime by instead hiring X number of officers/firefighters so you all can have your free time? ...

couldn't this work (but also wouldn't it be a HUGE financial blow to the average public safety worker)?

I mean, really - what is this opposition really all about????

[Wambo36]

wambo, I just think there should be another venue for it instead of this MAPS vote.

why don't you all just sit down and duke it out next year? What does MAPS have to do with your issues? Isn't it really solely against the mayor and the establishment?

And I asked the question on a different thread, but I will ask you - could they just revise the contractural obligation of overtime by instead hiring X number of officers/firefighters so you all can have your free time? ...

couldn't this work (but also wouldn't it be a HUGE financial blow to the average public safety worker)?

I mean, really - what is this opposition really all about????

We do sit down and duke it out every year. We have a mechanism for deciding our wages that the city brought to us and we agreed to. Guess what? Every year they fight us over the wage mechanism that they came up with. That's the mentality we deal with day in and day out.
The overtime is not a contractural obligation, it's federal law.

What is this opposition really all about? The same day the city announced the MAPS vote they also sent a memo to all departments asking for a 2% cut with a 3% cut to come later. The initial 2% will mean 40 positions gone from the FD. An FD that's already operating at manning levels lower than they were in 1994. IMO voting for this MAPS is like asking for a loan to buy a 3rd car when you can't afford to maintain the 2 you already have.

[Spartan]

Sparticus

You are wrong about the raise, and 2% every year is inconsistent with the truth. MIII is to be completed in 7.5 years or so. Then we can feel the economic impact. As of now, we are in a transition. A growth phase if you like. If we want to keep from slipping into recession, perhaps we should look to "now" sorts of tactics. MIII is banking on the future, and the best years of current MAPS haven't kept the pace with the payback schedules thus far. Again, who wouldn't love to have some of those amenities? Imagine the fun we could have together, me in my running shoes and you perhaps in a fashionable pair of rollerblades as we glide down aureate sidewalks paved in precious stones, but the plain hard real fact is, public safety cannot take a hit for our snowcones on lazy afternoons.

Isn't this the kind of speech that a charismatic Latin American dictator gives to his parliament when the funding bill comes around?

[eef]

I hope it passes. MAPS has been great for OKC and we need to keep going.

[megax11]

All I can say is I will be voting yes for the sole fact why should I live in a city and not give to something that has given to me for the past 31 years?

Why should I be selfish, ask for something, but not help pay for it?

Why should I want to walk in this new central park, but ask others to pay for it, while I use it freely?

That sounds greedy to me. So I will say yes, pay 1 penny more yet again, if it means new things for the city I love.

[FritterGirl]

We put a sign in our yard and at our business but not without a little trepidation on my part. Both of our signs are on busy streets and are highly visible and I guess I am just worried about the seemingly aggressive campaign style of the NO side.

Typical union thuggery. There, I said it.

Interesting to note:

Reports of uniformed police "harrassing" (probably a bit too strong of a word) City employees who were picking up "NOT THIS MAPS" signs during the City's Sign Sweep week, even though said signs were ILLEGALLY PLACED (per City ordinance) in public rights of ways, medians, etc.

I have also been told directly of one account where non-uniformed police officers are showing their police badges when pushing out information on NOT THIS MAPS.

I mentioned in another thread where a co-worker left for work with two YES FOR MAPS signs in his yard; came back from work to find them missing, and NOT THIS MAPS info taped to his front door. A neighbor of his verified that NOT THIS MAPS folks were out canvassing the neighborhood that day.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen on both sides of the issue fence. We see it happen all the time during political/party campaigns.

Here, however, I think some police & fire folks (NOT ALL) are using their status as a means of pushing their agenda through their perceived "power." It's a subtle way of intimidation, but works on many people.

I for one won't buy into it.

On another note, however, there is such a thing as the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" scenario happening. Not sure that traditional campaigning is always the best route. Would love to see more "grass roots" efforts by the Chamber, in addition to their advertising. Too many people seem to be muddled by the fear tactics of the NTM campaign, and are confusing rhetoic with facts.

[purplemonkeythief]

Typical union thuggery. There, I said it.

Interesting to note:

Reports of uniformed police "harrassing" (probably a bit too strong of a word) City employees who were picking up "NOT THIS MAPS" signs during the City's Sign Sweep week, even though said signs were ILLEGALLY PLACED (per City ordinance) in public rights of ways, medians, etc.

I have also been told directly of one account where non-uniformed police officers are showing their police badges when pushing out information on NOT THIS MAPS.

I mentioned in another thread where a co-worker left for work with two YES FOR MAPS signs in his yard; came back from work to find them missing, and NOT THIS MAPS info taped to his front door. A neighbor of his verified that NOT THIS MAPS folks were out canvassing the neighborhood that day.

I'm not saying this doesn't happen on both sides of the issue fence. We see it happen all the time during political/party campaigns.

Here, however, I think some police & fire folks (NOT ALL) are using their status as a means of pushing their agenda through their perceived "power." It's a subtle way of intimidation, but works on many people.

I for one won't buy into it.

On another note, however, there is such a thing as the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" scenario happening. Not sure that traditional campaigning is always the best route. Would love to see more "grass roots" efforts by the Chamber, in addition to their advertising. Too many people seem to be muddled by the fear tactics of the NTM campaign, and are confusing rhetoic with facts.

wow, that's almost as bad as the City Manager threatening small businesses that dare to put No signs in their windows.

[Spartan]

wow, that's almost as bad as the City Manager threatening small businesses that dare to put No signs in their windows.

No way! Not da big scary cittee managerr!! I wasn't even aware of small businesses that support the NTM side. I mean, anti-MAPS is pretty much anti-business, after all.

[FritterGirl]

wow, that's almost as bad as the City Manager threatening small businesses that dare to put No signs in their windows.

Threatening with what exactly?

[mugofbeer]

Threatening with what exactly?

He's never proven it ever happened. He just said it did.

[mugofbeer]

We do sit down and duke it out every year. We have a mechanism for deciding our wages that the city brought to us and we agreed to. Guess what? Every year they fight us over the wage mechanism that they came up with. That's the mentality we deal with day in and day out.
The overtime is not a contractural obligation, it's federal law.

What is this opposition really all about? The same day the city announced the MAPS vote they also sent a memo to all departments asking for a 2% cut with a 3% cut to come later. The initial 2% will mean 40 positions gone from the FD. An FD that's already operating at manning levels lower than they were in 1994. IMO voting for this MAPS is like asking for a loan to buy a 3rd car when you can't afford to maintain the 2 you already have.

And this differs from ANY union contract negotiation in what way? If you negotiate it every year and you approve it, what are you bitching about it somehow having a connection to MAPS3? It sounds like you are shooting yourself in the foot with your wage negotiations and shooting yourself in the foot with a "no" MAPS vote, too!

[purplemonkeythief]

He's never proven it ever happened. He just said it did.

who's never proved it happened? I didn't originate the story. I just went to Hobby's Hoagies for lunch today and verified that it happened.

iron76hd posted a phone number for the deli that any one of you can call to verify the story, the info he posted is here: http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...iatribe-4.html

or better yet, you can visit the Hobby's Hoagies between 3rd & 4th on Walker, on the opposite side of the street from the Goodyear shop.


Now then, show us some confirmation of all these incidents of Police harassment. I've seen nothing concrete. Prove it is happening.

[mugofbeer]

There's no video on Mark Shannon's site that I can find and there is no link or copy of any email about such an incident. I don't plan to call the place because he could be full of crap. Its innuendo without proof.

[purplemonkeythief]

There's no video on Mark Shannon's site that I can find and there is no link or copy of any email about such an incident. I don't plan to call the place because he could be full of crap. Its innuendo without proof.

The exact same thing can be said about every single one of these accusations of the police harassing Yes voters, or badges being flashed, or signs being stolen.

The difference is that you were given a number and a location where you can go verify that a small business was being harassed by the City Manager and you choose to ignore it. You choose to not call or visit and keep your head in the sand.

It blows me away that Yes people will accept anything said which is derogatory toward the No side without even a question, but you require video proof of an action that can be verified simply by calling or visiting a store simply because it shows the Yes side in a way you can't accept.

If this thing actually passes and the City Council starts writing checks to the Ford center, or to a Marketing firm, or to some shady construction company that doesn't have any employees, what sort of stories will you people spin to make yourselves feel better about the fact that you just got raped for $777 million.

[Spartan]

How about this: Given the choice of cops or city managers, which would you be more inclined to believe is using blackmail, intimidation, and other evil methods of persuasion?

[mugofbeer]

The exact same thing can be said about every single one of these accusations of the police harassing Yes voters, or badges being flashed, or signs being stolen.

The difference is that you were given a number and a location where you can go verify that a small business was being harassed by the City Manager and you choose to ignore it. You choose to not call or visit and keep your head in the sand.

I agree and I don't put that much credence in those claims, either. I have no doubts that signs are being removed simply because I know it happens all the time in political campaigns. But I imagine its happening to both sides. As far as phone numbers, I'm not interested in calling it because to me, its a moot point.

It blows me away that Yes people will accept anything said which is derogatory toward the No side without even a question, but you require video proof of an action that can be verified simply by calling or visiting a store simply because it shows the Yes side in a way you can't accept.

My issue with the "no" side here is that I believe the police and fire issue are totally separate issues from MAPS. As I said, voting "no" on this and then expecting the city to suddenly start listening to the union gripes isn't going to happen. They will repackage MAPS3 and put it out again. Union gripes are something to take up first with your council man/woman and then the mayor. If they aren't responding, then put up your own candidate.

If this thing actually passes and the City Council starts writing checks to the Ford center, or to a Marketing firm, or to some shady construction company that doesn't have any employees, what sort of stories will you people spin to make yourselves feel better about the fact that you just got raped for $777 million.

It won't happen because as happened with past MAPS programs there will be an oversight committee(s) that will ensure the money is being spent for what was intended. There weren't examples of shady dealings with previous MAPS, if anything, the construction company's displayed extraordinary willing ness to work with the city (example was, I think, BOLT Construction that realized they made a multi-million dollar error on their bid for the Ford Center but instead of looking for more money, they voluntarily ate the error).

If questions arise as to how the money is spent, your council reps and the mayor will be there to answer to it. You can always try to recall them if their behavior is grossly out of line.

You express fears that have been proven thru M1 and M4K not to occur. In fact, the politicians have done a great job getting pretty good bang for the buck on those programs. Why, suddenly, would things change?

[purplemonkeythief]

How about this: Given the choice of cops or city managers, which would you be more inclined to believe is using blackmail, intimidation, and other evil methods of persuasion?

Given the choice? I'd go with the plethora of MAPS3 supporters who continue to post unsubstantiated allegations.

I don't for one second believe that the police are using blackmail and intimidation. Mainly because I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, until they prove otherwise. So far, I've seen zero proof of the police acting in such a manner.

On the other hand, I personally verified the story about the city manager, I've read the OK constitution and seen how the ballot circumvents it. I've seen what the rest of the City looks like compared to downtown and see absolutely no reason why we need to spend so much money beautifing an already vibrant area while the rest of the city goes to pot.

[wsucougz]

This is getting ridiculous.

YES.

[kevinpate]

... almost as bad as the City Manager threatening small businesses that dare to put No signs in their windows.

I recall seeing a post elsewhere on the board relating to a sandwich shop or a diner downtown. So that one small business is I presume included in yur reference. It's the only one I've heard such a reference about here, or elsewhere for that matter.

As you are someone who has repeatedly asked others to provide you a listing of private developers who favor MAPs3, I'm hopeful you might be so kind as to provide a listing of the other small businesses you are aware of based on your reference to multiple businesses.

Or was the reference to businesses perhaps incorrect?

It happens, and I'm curious to know which is correct in this instance. i doubt I'm alone in that regard.

[purplemonkeythief]

I recall seeing a post elsewhere on the board relating to a sandwich shop or a diner downtown. So that one small business is I presume included in yur reference. It's the only one I've heard such a reference about here, or elsewhere for that matter.

As you are someone who has repeatedly asked others to provide you a listing of private developers who favor MAPs3, I'm hopeful you might be so kind as to provide a listing of the other small businesses you are aware of based on your reference to multiple businesses.

Or was the reference to businesses perhaps incorrect?

It happens, and I'm curious to know which is correct in this instance. i doubt I'm alone in that regard.

Yes, I was referring to Hobby's Hoagies downtown, I mispoke when I said "businesses".

[kevinpate]

Yes, I was referring to Hobby's Hoagies downtown, I mispoke when I said "businesses".

Appreciate the clarification.

I am a non resident who favors MAPs3.
I firmly believe no MAPs3 supporter should threaten anyone regarding their decision on how to vote.
I firmly believe no Not This MAPs supporter should threaten anyone.

Discuss, attempt to persuade, within reason? Sure, that's advocacy.
Threaten or cause harm? Nah, shouldn't happen.