New Convention Center issue

[gmwise]

Let look at it this way. Is it better to send local decision makers to other cities or to bring decision makers from other cities to OKC? Do you want Larry Nichols traveling to Houston for energy related conventions every year, or would you prefer the CEOs of Houston based companies coming to OKC? The decision is really no harder than that.

I understand we need "new money" to grow our local economy.
But we have so many slum like houses,abandon properties,Downtown is a mess, hell I have a damn abandon property that has 3 to 4 feet of growing grass,across the street, the city can't seem to find...and they want a new convention center?
,show me you can handle your first job!!

[Patrick]

Anyway... I have no real objections to the actual projects. My obejction is the timing. The Oklahoma Economy could go in the crapper overnight if the government decides to scale back operations at Tinker (chances are about as likely as Tornado in early May) or one of the other major employers like INTEGRIS, Chesapeake, Devon or announces layoffs or goes belly up.

Same thing could've been said back in the 1990's when we passed MAPS 1.

Not to mention what is going to happen if cost skyrocket. Are we going to get stiffed again like we did on the canal and the Ford Center. Everyone expected some kind of grand project with both projects. When they were finally completed most people asked the question "This is it? It's nice and everything but... it's not what I expected. The Ford Center had at least a dozen mistakes.

I actually think the canal is what we were promised. An approx. 3/4 mile canal is what we were always promised from day 1. Private development along the canal was never guaranteed or promised.....just the canal...which is built.

And the plan for an arena in MAPS 1 was always just a basic, barebones sports arena with enough seating and size for possible use for NBA/NHL at a later date. We were never promised the Taj Mahal of arenas. Not for $80 million. I'm not really sure what mistakes you're referring to with The Ford Center. Maybe the size of the seating? Specifics like that weren't mentioned when MAPS 1 was proposed. You can't get that specific when you make broad proposals initially. We were simply promised a general basic sports arena with seating for around 20,000 folks.

Sure the Impala is a nice car but... It is not a Bentley.

For $360 million in MAPS 1, we were never promised a Bentley.

If MAPS 3 passes, they should do one project at a time, finish it and move on to the next. Don't blow the money on three projects at once in three diffrent parts of the city.

That's what they did with MAPS 1. They started with the fairgrounds improvements, then the convention center, then the ballpark, then the canal, then the river dams, and then the library. It pretty much went one project at a time as the money was collected.

[Doug Loudenback]

I think we need a new convention center due in part to Oklahoma City always being in the past.

How are we ever supposed to grow if we care about space?

Half of OKC's space is in the slums. most of 44th and north of it from western to I-35 is downright shameful. Filled with empty ponds, a pet food factory, run down streets, and houses that look slummy.

I hope Maps passes so all of that can be turned into a nice park with a convention center as it shows how far we're moving up, instead of staying behind because people in rocking chairs are content with living out the rest of their lives with the current state this city is in.

I hate thinking that people are afraid to help grow this city, at the expense of a penny.

I too hope to see that **** hole of a building gone, in favor of something new. We need new, not the past.

Whether one be for, against, or undecided about Maps 3, Megax11, you are vastly oversimplifying all of the numerous issues which are involved in MAPS 3 and I'll not elaborate here.

But, on one point, I take serious issue with you, where you said

We need new, not the past.

We need both. Our past heritage is every bit as important as our present and future. After numerous grand buildings were destroyed in the 1960s-1980s, would you also have torn down the Skirvin, as many thought best to do?

[architect5311]

That's how MAPS operates, one or two projects at a time as funding comes in, they don't break ground on all 7 or 8 at once.

Maybe they should because there was one big issue with all of the MAPS I projects, they were all underfunded, and the City had to come back and ask for more money or shift money from one project to another.

Just saying do it right the first time, put together as accurate a cost estimate as possible, include a large contingency for potential unknown problems, issues which may arise, etc............

[Kerry]

I understand we need "new money" to grow our local economy.
But we have so many slum like houses,abandon properties,Downtown is a mess, hell I have a damn abandon property that has 3 to 4 feet of growing grass,across the street, the city can't seem to find...and they want a new convention center?
,show me you can handle your first job!!

So the city shouldn't do anything until they mow your neighbors grass? When did lawn care become the cities highest priority?

[bombermwc]

i agree with Kerrie - no matter what, the stupid trivial stuff is going to happen. I'm not going to hold the city back because they can't get someone's yard mowed...or a park needs more plants in someone else's eyes. That little stuff isn't really the big picture.

Now is the time to do it, and we need to move on it. Do it once, do it right.

[metro]

Maybe they should because there was one big issue with all of the MAPS I projects, they were all underfunded, and the City had to come back and ask for more money or shift money from one project to another.

Just saying do it right the first time, put together as accurate a cost estimate as possible, include a large contingency for potential unknown problems, issues which may arise, etc............

What proof do you have that they were underfunded? Furthermore we were told up front the Ford Center would be built bare bones, but to NBA/NHL standards (of that time), but that if we landed a permanent team we would have to update. What other projects came in under funded?

Again, unknowns and potential problems will always exist with anything. Furthermore, City leaders are also leaving a $17 Million Cushion in this MAPS to cover such problems you state. This cushion was not built into MAPS 1 and it still came out great and propelled our city into a place to live.

[gmwise]

So the city shouldn't do anything until they mow your neighbors grass? When did lawn care become the cities highest priority?

Well it says they have a hard time doing what their primary job is, and it calls into question of how trustworthy they are when they prefer the shiney PR stuff over their primary jobs.
As far of them not mowing lawns I just want them to hire a contractor after they take pictures of the abandon property, condemn it. tear it down and put up for sale.in a day..lol

[Doug Loudenback]

Architect5311, I agree with what Metro said for the most part. By necessity, construction spending must be spread out over the time that tax revenues are generated which make construction possible in a multiple project program like MAPS, MAPS for Kids, or MAPS 3.

During Ron Norick's administration, it did become evident toward the end that not enough money would be generated to complete a few final projects, most notably the Ford Center and, unless my memory fails me, the new library and learning center was in that group as well.

As for the city coming back to ask for "more money," as you put it, that did occur but only that one time. Whether to extend the tax for an additional 5 or 6 months (I don't recall which off the top of my head) was the hot topic in the mayoral race when Kirk Humphreys was elected. In his term, the sales tax extension vote carried by a whopping 69% to 31%.

Had the Ford Center project started before the revenue shortfall became evident, and before the half-year extension vote which wound up funded it was done, we'd have something like a skeleton standing there looking rather pitiful had it begun before funding to complete it was available.

Sales tax projections aren't all that precise and the money generated isn't known until after the fact. I agree with Metro that the inclusion of a $17 M contingency cushion into MAPS 3 was a wise decision.

While several other important and contentious issues remain about MAPS 3, elsewhere discussed, I don't think that the one raised here presents a problem at all.

[CCOKC]

For those interested in seeing how the Cox Convention Center stacks up to other cities click here: US Convention Center Directory | Cvent

Cox is way way way down the list.

My goodness I had no idea how small the Cox Center was comparatively. Even Tulsa's is almost twice as big. Does anybody know if this includes the arena? (I am assuming it does since the bigger shows use the floor of the arena). This should be stressed in the advertising campaign.

[Kerry]

My goodness I had no idea how small the Cox Center was comparatively. Even Tulsa's is almost twice as big. Does anybody know if this includes the arena? (I am assuming it does since the bigger shows use the floor of the arena). This should be stressed in the advertising campaign.

The number does include the arena floor. The Myriad is way smaller than most people think it is. What is sad are all of the cities a lot smaller than OKC that have convention centers with 3 or 4 times as much space.

Convention Centers larger than OKC (ranked by size)

McCormick Place IL - Chicago 2,700,000
Orange County Convention Center FL - Orlando 2,539,559
Las Vegas Convention Center NV - Las Vegas 2,157,235
Georgia World Congress Center GA - Atlanta 1,673,563
New Orleans Morial Convention Center LA - New Orleans 1,508,763
Sands Expo and Convention Center NV - Las Vegas 1,326,807
Dallas Convention Center TX - Dallas / Ft. Worth 1,116,307
The Moscone Center CA - San Francisco 1,037,988
Phoenix Convention Center AZ - Phoenix 1,029,088
George R. Brown Convention Center TX - Houston 1,006,958
Donald E. Stephens Convention Center IL - Chicago 879,000
Jacob K. Javits Convention Center NY - New York 844,780
San Diego Convention Center CA - San Diego 814,035
The Colorado Convention Center CO - Denver 785,403
America's Center MO - St. Louis 781,240
Boston Convention & Exhibition Center MA - Boston 712,799
Tampa Convention Center FL - Tampa 699,643
Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center TX - San Antonio 691,936
Reno-Sparks Convention Center NV - Reno / Tahoe 656,673
Salt Palace Convention Center UT - Salt Lake City 653,541
Walter E. Washington Convention Center DC - Washington 643,170
Atlantic City Convention Center NJ - Atlantic City 631,856
Miami Beach Convention Center FL - Miami / Ft. Lauderdale 629,830
Kansas City Convention & Entertainment Facilities MO - Kansas City 610,087
Savannah International Trade & Convention Center GA - Savannah 543,742
Indiana Convention Center & RCA Dome IN - Indianapolis 507,030
Greater Columbus Convention Center OH - Columbus 506,149
Oregon Convention Center OR - Portland 490,926
Birmingham-Jefferson Convention Complex AL - Birmingham 485,216
Connecticut Convention Center CT - Hartford 435,395
Cleveland Convention Center OH - Cleveland 431,836
David Lawrence Convention Center PA - Pittsburgh 425,028
Long Beach Convention & Entertainment Center CA - Los Angeles 412,639
Georgia International Convention Center GA - Atlanta 412,477
Charlotte Convention Center NC - Charlotte 404,241
Mississippi Coast Coliseum & Convention Center MS - Biloxi 397,111
Mobile Convention Center AL - Mobile 386,154
Baltimore Convention Center MD - Baltimore 383,352
Carolina First Center SC - Greenville 379,019
Fort Worth Convention Center TX - Dallas / Ft. Worth 374,501
Austin Convention Center TX - Austin 366,893
Hawaii Convention Center HI - Honolulu 363,192
Washington State Convention & Trade Center WA - Seattle 359,881
Spokane Convention Center WA - Spokane 356,870
Palm Beach County Convention Center FL - West Palm Beach 356,162
Greater Fort Lauderdale/Broward County Convention Center FL - Miami / Ft. Lauderdale 324,852
Hot Springs Convention Center AR - Little Rock 314,175
Pennsylvania Convention Center PA - Philadelphia 313,446
Puerto Rico Convention Center PR - San Juan 310,569
Nashville Convention Center TN - Nashville 308,890
San Jose McEnery Convention Center CA - San Francisco 308,495
Duke Energy Convention Center OH - Cincinnati 297,596
Iowa Events Center IA - Des Moines 292,586
Kentucky International Convention Center KY - Louisville 286,162
Memphis Cook Convention Center TN - Memphis 269,556
Cashman Field Center NV - Las Vegas 265,527
Saint Paul Rivercentre MN - Minneapolis / St. Paul 260,100
Greater Richmond Convention Centre VA - Richmond 258,479
Century II Performing Arts & Convention Center KS - Wichita 256,482
John B. Hynes Veterans Memorial Convention Center MA - Boston 256,265
Shreveport Convention Center LA - Shreveport 245,438
Albuquerque Convention Center NM - Albuquerque 242,716
Alliant Energy Center WI - Madison 240,057
Ontario Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 236,389
Santa Clara Convention Center CA - San Francisco 229,807
DeVos Place MI - Grand Rapids 224,207
Tucson Convention Center AZ - Tucson 218,914
Knoxville Convention/Exhibition Center TN - Knoxville 214,018
Anaheim Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 212,710
Ocean Center FL - Orlando 211,560
Raleigh Convention Center NC - Raleigh 211,060
The Virginia Beach Convention Center VA - Norfolk 210,470
Sacramento Convention Center Complex CA - Sacramento 202,690
Oakland Convention Center CA - San Francisco 202,261
Von Braun Center AL - Huntsville 201,804
Cobb Galleria Centre GA - Atlanta 190,182
Prime F Osborn III Convention Center FL - Jacksonville 187,480
American Bank Center Convention Center TX - Corpus Christi 182,758
Oncenter Complex NY - Syracuse 182,321
Columbus, Georgia Convention & Trade Center GA - Columbus 182,232
Hampton Roads Convention Center VA - Norfolk 176,488
Palm Springs Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 174,866
American Bank Center TX - Corpus Christi 170,316
Duluth Entertainment Convention Center MN - Duluth 169,343
Greater Tacoma Convention & Trade Center WA - Seattle 163,785
Rochester Riverside Convention Center NY - Rochester 162,949
Tulsa Convention Center OK - Tulsa 156,694
New Jersey Convention and Exposition Center NJ - Northern New Jersey 154,200
Pasadena Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 150,459
Monona Terrace Community and Convention Center WI - Madison 145,460
Chattanooga Convention Center TN - Chattanooga 143,846
Rhode Island Convention Center RI - Providence 143,789
Gwinnett Center GA - Atlanta 136,377
Statehouse Convention Center AR - Little Rock 136,228
Myrtle Beach Convention Center SC - Myrtle Beach 131,932
M.C. Benton Jr. Convention Center NC - Greensboro 131,751
La Crosse Center WI - La Crosse 128,206
AmericasMart Atlanta GA - Atlanta 127,380
Overland Park Convention Center MO - Kansas City 127,116
Lee Civic Center FL - Fort Myers 124,500
DCU Center MA - Boston 124,180
Charleston Area Convention Center SC - Charleston 117,730
Seattle Center WA - Seattle 114,323
Hopkins County Civic Center TX - Dallas / Ft. Worth 113,902
Amarillo Civic Center TX - Amarillo 113,577
Charleston Civic Center WV - Charleston 112,869
Buffalo Niagara Convention Center NY - Buffalo 112,705
Roland E. Powell Convention Center MD - Salisbury 111,346
Sioux Falls Convention Center SD - Sioux Falls 111,156
Peoria Civic Center IL - Peoria 110,000
The Macon Centreplex Coliseum and Convention Center GA - Macon 109,006
Wildwoods Convention Center NJ - Atlantic City 107,031
Gatlinburg Convention Center TN - Knoxville 106,504
Pasadena Convention Center & Municipal Fairgrounds TX - Houston 105,036
The Stonegate Conference Centre IL - Chicago 104,751
Los Angeles Convention Center CA - Los Angeles 103,405
Dayton Convention Center OH - Dayton 102,225
Bismarck Civic Center ND - Minot 101,882
Mayo Civic Center MN - Rochester 101,115
Dixie Center UT - Salt Lake City 100,879
Minneapolis Convention Center MN - Minneapolis / St. Paul 100,000
Crown Center NC - Charlotte 99,553
Asheville Civic Center SC - Greenville 97,208
Lansing Center MI - Lansing 97,118
Lancaster County Convention Center PA - Harrisburg 95,743
Lubbock Memorial Civic Center TX - Lubbock 95,338
Monroe Civic Center AR - Monroe 94,488
Fresno Convention Center CA - Fresno 93,334
Qwest Center Omaha NE - Omaha 93,303
The Lakeland Center FL - Tampa 92,740
St. Charles Convention Center MO - St. Louis 92,549
Rushmore Plaza Civic Center SD - Rapid City 91,535
Northern Kentucky Convention Center OH - Cincinnati 90,068
Seagate Convention Center OH - Toledo 88,671
McAllen Convention Center TX - Harlingen 87,206
Branson Convention Center MO - Springfield 87,170
Lexington Convention Center KY - Lexington 86,494
Cox Business Services Convention Center OK - Oklahoma City 85,023

[mugofbeer]

Maybe they should because there was one big issue with all of the MAPS I projects, they were all underfunded, and the City had to come back and ask for more money or shift money from one project to another.

Just saying do it right the first time, put together as accurate a cost estimate as possible, include a large contingency for potential unknown problems, issues which may arise, etc............

Arch - have you ever tried to go out and model how much money you are going to need over the next 10 years? Its easier if you work on a salary but city tax revenues are like someone who works on commission, they can vary widely year over year depending on conditions.

Lets be real, I think the city DID put together as accurate a cost estimate as possible and DID include a contingency for potential unknown problems and inflation. It just turned out to be less than they needed. Would you rather have them do this or end up making what they needed a year early and then have a bunch of leftover tax revenue?

[architect5311]

Metro

What proof do you have that they were underfunded? Furthermore we were told up front the Ford Center would be built bare bones, but to NBA/NHL standards (of that time), but that if we landed a permanent team we would have to update. What other projects came in under funded?

Again, unknowns and potential problems will always exist with anything. Furthermore, City leaders are also leaving a $17 Million Cushion in this MAPS to cover such problems you state. This cushion was not built into MAPS 1 and it still came out great and propelled our city into a place to live.

Arch - have you ever tried to go out and model how much money you are going to need over the next 10 years? Its easier if you work on a salary but city tax revenues are like someone who works on commission, they can vary widely year over year depending on conditions.

Lets be real, I think the city DID put together as accurate a cost estimate as possible and DID include a contingency for potential unknown problems and inflation. It just turned out to be less than they needed. Would you rather have them do this or end up making what they needed a year early and then have a bunch of leftover tax revenue?

From City of OKC website..

MAPS was funded by a temporary one-cent sales tax approved by city voters in December 1993, and later extended an additional six months. The tax expired on July 1, 1999. During the 66 months it was in effect, over $309 million was collected. In addition, the deposited tax revenue earned about $54 million in interest. That's being used for MAPS construction, too.

The majority of MAPS projects were completed between 1998 and 2000 with the exception of the Arena(2002)and the Library(2004) the wheels were rolling on these projects far before the tax expiration date. The Ballpark came in 7 million over budget at bid, due to a cost estimating error, went back to redesign and 7 million worth of good stuff was cut. The Cox Center was bugeted some 40 odd million and ended up costing 60. The Civic Center was budgeted some 30 odd million and ended up costing 53. The Arena was the only project to come in under budget due to an error in estimating, the contractor stuck to their submitted bid to save face, and what do you get, a bare bones arena as it was put earlier. Now today we are spending 100 million more to improve and enhance the 87.7 million dollar Arena and it still won't stack up to the BOK Center, design wise. Are all or any of these MAPS I projects world class? No

Question is can the City, in general, do a better job with MAPS 3?

Can they do it right, with the numbers they are throwing out there?

I don't know, but hell ya, I would like for there to be a bunch of leftover tax revenue.

[architect5311]

...... By necessity, construction spending must be spread out over the time that tax revenues are generated which make construction possible in a multiple project program like MAPS, MAPS for Kids, or MAPS 3.

During Ron Norick's administration, it did become evident toward the end that not enough money would be generated to complete a few final projects, most notably the Ford Center and, unless my memory fails me, the new library and learning center was in that group as well.

As for the city coming back to ask for "more money," as you put it, that did occur but only that one time. Whether to extend the tax for an additional 5 or 6 months (I don't recall which off the top of my head) was the hot topic in the mayoral race when Kirk Humphreys was elected. In his term, the sales tax extension vote carried by a whopping 69% to 31%.

Had the Ford Center project started before the revenue shortfall became evident, and before the half-year extension vote which wound up funded it was done, we'd have something like a skeleton standing there looking rather pitiful had it begun before funding to complete it was available.

Sales tax projections aren't all that precise and the money generated isn't known until after the fact. I agree with Metro that the inclusion of a $17 M contingency cushion into MAPS 3 was a wise decision.

While several other important and contentious issues remain about MAPS 3, elsewhere discussed, I don't think that the one raised here presents a problem at all.

Of course unknowns and problems will arise and contingencies should always be included. But the city has to learn from past experience.

I am all for a new convention center and MAPS 3.............then I look at the Cox Center and think what a waste of planning, time and money to renovate that facility after only what 6 years?

I worked on a MAPS I project, we had to cut alot out of the project and still didn't get it in a limited budget. Could have made the diffrence in being a world class facility. Also worked on a MAPS For Kids project and had to cut 1/3 of the square footage out of the building. The school won't have a gymnasium.

Question: Can Oklahoma City do it right?

[metro]

so architect, are you saying the City did not learn anything from MAPS 1? are you stating they didnt' put the $17 million cushion into MAPS 3 because they did not learn from the previous MAPS?

Sounds like we're getting too much of Tulsa's mindset here lately.

[Doug Loudenback]

Disagree, metro. Were the present ballot like the original MAPS ballot, the types of concerns being mentioned wouldn't be occurring. If it true that the city ballot cannot us a logrolling approach (and I do not know whether that's actually so), some are concerned about the absence of teethier safeguards than are present in the overall proposal. Equating those who express their concerns about the methodology used for MAPS 3 as being the equivalent of the "vote no" mentality of some if not most Tulsans is false logic.

Besides that, don't we have an ordinance that says if one Oklahoma City resident describes another Oklahoma City resident as having Tulsa mindset, that such person shall be guilty of slander?

[mugofbeer]

Of course unknowns and problems will arise and contingencies should always be included. But the city has to learn from past experience.

I am all for a new convention center and MAPS 3.............then I look at the Cox Center and think what a waste of planning, time and money to renovate that facility after only what 6 years?

I worked on a MAPS I project, we had to cut alot out of the project and still didn't get it in a limited budget. Could have made the diffrence in being a world class facility. Also worked on a MAPS For Kids project and had to cut 1/3 of the square footage out of the building. The school won't have a gymnasium.

Question: Can Oklahoma City do it right?

The work on the Cox Center was great. I don't know what in the world you are talking about. The Cox Center isn't a place for mass conventions and expositions that need a million square feet of space. There's no room around it for expansion so unless you want to go up, they did what they can do. Its for small and medium sized events or it can handle large arena events. It would be a great complement for a large-exposition center. I'm glad you worked on those projects but they weren't open wallets or checkbooks. There had to be limits put on what was done.

[architect5311]

so architect, are you saying the City did not learn anything from MAPS 1? are you stating they didnt' put the $17 million cushion into MAPS 3 because they did not learn from the previous MAPS?

Yes, No

[architect5311]

The work on the Cox Center was great. I don't know what in the world you are talking about. The Cox Center isn't a place for mass conventions and expositions that need a million square feet of space. There's no room around it for expansion so unless you want to go up, they did what they can do. Its for small and medium sized events or it can handle large arena events. It would be a great complement for a large-exposition center. I'm glad you worked on those projects but they weren't open wallets or checkbooks. There had to be limits put on what was done.

FYI, a study was commissioned shortly after the Cox Center was completed. The study explored the possibility of taking out the arena and putting in a second level over a ground level in the volume of space which the arena occupies. Don't know what became of that, I'm guessing the cost and talks of future MAPS projects.

As far as limits to spending on projects, additional money was used or raised or whatever to finish some projects. The city had to finish the projects for MAPS I to be a success...........

[mugofbeer]

I feel like its been kind of a surprising benefit to the city to have the luxury of two arenas across the street from each other for things like the Big 12 Basketball. I'm glad they didn't redo the Cox Arena.

[Larry OKC]

I actually think the canal is what we were promised.....just the canal...which is built.

As promised? Not exactly...voters were told the Canal was going to cost $9 million, total cost was $23M ($14M or 155% more).

And the plan for an arena in MAPS 1 was always just a basic, barebones sports arena with enough seating and size for possible use for NBA/NHL at a later date. We were never promised the Taj Mahal of arenas. Not for $80 million. ... We were simply promised a general basic sports arena with seating for around 20,000 folks.

Again, not exactly. I have asked for this many times in other threads but have never received a reply: please show an article WRITTEN AT THE TIME that indicates the Ford was built "bare bones". If by bare bones, you mean that due to the significant cost over runs of the other MAPS projects, things were scaled back some and it was built "builder's white", that is one thing (it was always the City's intent that the tenant for the Ballpark (89ers/Redhawks) and the eventual tenant for the Arena, would pay for the "finishing out" costs of those facilities.

In the MAPS ballot it states that the Arena would meet the standards of the NBA and NHL (doesn't mention just seating capacity standards).

While "Taj Mahal" may not have been specifically mentioned when it went to the voters, he were told since it's opening and in following years, it was the "crown jewel of MAPS" ... "First-rate Facility" ... "a Top-quality Arena" ... "the Premier Project of Maps" ... "Oklahoma City wanted The Best. Now it’s here." ... "the Ford Center is the area’s Premier Entertainment and Sports Complex" ... and finally, the “Ford Center is State of the Art” (This last one isn’t an isolated quote, but a descriptive phrase m entioned by at least 5 different sources).

It was described that way while the Hornets were here and didn't start being called "adequate" and talk of REPLACING the Ford happened right about the time Bennett bought the Sonics. Then it was determined the Ford "needed" $120M in improvements (more than it cost to begin with) to bring it back up to NBA standards. Even though Stern said we didn't necessarily need any improvements to the Ford to land a permanent team. At the time of the vote, the Ford had just turned 5 years old. The Mayor admitted it was all his idea (no one at the NBA said we needed the improvements).

[Larry OKC]

What proof do you have that they were underfunded? Furthermore we were told up front the Ford Center would be built bare bones, but to NBA/NHL standards (of that time), but that if we landed a permanent team we would have to update. What other projects came in under funded? ... City leaders are also leaving a $17 Million Cushion in this MAPS to cover such problems you state. This cushion was not built into MAPS 1 and it still came out great and propelled our city into a place to live.

Please show me an article were we were told "up front" any of what you claim. Everything I have read about it indicates otherwise.

Reportedly only 1 of the 9 MAPS projects came in on time and on budget.

Which projects came in underfunded? The Canal for starters, voters were told $9M, actual cost $23M or $14M more (255%)

Overall, MAPS was nearly 50% more than what voters were told (voters told $238M, actual cost $351M, or $113M more (47.5%). If the $120M Ford/NBA tax is included to "finish" the Ford, MAPS cost is almost double.

$17M sounds like a lot but when you consider the above, is 2.2% of the MAPS 3 budget enough? Unlikely.

[Kerry]

I feel like its been kind of a surprising benefit to the city to have the luxury of two arenas across the street from each other for things like the Big 12 Basketball. I'm glad they didn't redo the Cox Arena.

If a new convention center is built I would be in favor of keeping the Cox Arena. What I would like to see is a college or university move to downtown OKC and the Myriad be donated to them providing they keep the arena in-tact and make it available for public/city use like the Big XII tournament. The rest of the building could be turned in to classrooms. Otherwise, it would make a really good location for an intermodal train, trolley, bus station.

[Larry OKC]

I apologize in advance

Some of my posts have been caught up in the new member time warp, believe I have a post coming that may have some math errors in it (misplaced decimals in % figures or something like that), will just have to wait until it shows up and I will make corrections where needed.

[Larry OKC]

Kerry posted the following info:

Convention Centers larger than OKC (ranked by size)

McCormick Place IL - Chicago 2,700,000
Orange County Convention Center FL - Orlando 2,539,559
Las Vegas Convention Center NV - Las Vegas 2,157,235
Georgia World Congress Center GA - Atlanta 1,673,563
New Orleans Morial Convention Center LA - New Orleans 1,508,763
Sands Expo and Convention Center NV - Las Vegas 1,326,807
Dallas Convention Center TX - Dallas / Ft. Worth 1,116,307
The Moscone Center CA - San Francisco 1,037,988
Phoenix Convention Center AZ - Phoenix 1,029,088
George R. Brown Convention Center TX - Houston 1,006,958

and waaaaaayyyyyyy down the list...

Cox Business Services Convention Center OK - Oklahoma City 85,023



WOW. That is staggering to see how far behind we are CURRENTLY (lost count trying to see exactly what number we are). How much farther will we have dropped in 10 years (that's how long the Mayor said it will take before the New Convention Center is open...Chamber said 6 years).

Is the 85,023 number correct? Presume that the numbers given are all the same category: Total Building Space square footage (sf) OR total Sellable Space, OR subdivisions of Prime Exhibit Space, Meeting Space and Ballroom/Multi-use Space.

According to the chart on page 14 of the Convention Center report the Mayor and Chamber have mentioned, the OKC number is close to the "Prime Exhibit Space" figure of 81,500. Looks like the total building space number is skewed by the arena, as it says the Cox currently has 1 million sf (153,600 sf of it "Sellable"). The Sellable number helps the Cox move up some but not a lot.

Are we allowing for growth in those 10 years? Phase 1 (which closely corresponds with the amount reportedly budgeted in MAPS 3) will give OKC 285,000 sf (moves it up significantly but in todays buildings size, not ones 10 years from now). To be competitive with Cities 10 years in the future, you have to be competitive with the buildings that are going to be around then. Hard to imagine them getting bigger than 2.7M sf but after the first million sf one was built, who thought there would be a 1.5M, then 2M? Understand OKC is not trying to be in the same tier as whatever tier the 2M sf ones are in, we are trying to get into the Tier II category (whatever sf range that is).

Unclear if the numbers in the chart for Phase 2 (MAPS 4?) are in addition to the numbers from Phase 1 or a total, so difficult to discuss them (besides, that is probably another 5 to 10 years after the initial 6-10 years).

This is eerily reminiscent of the Ford Center improvements when no growth was planned. After the improvements, seating capacity decreases by 960 seats dropping the Ford from last years NBA arena ranking of #14 all the way down to #28 (and farther down when new, bigger arenas open)

Sorry, but I don't have a direct link, but here is the article that has the link to the report (in the More Info side bar to the left):

NewsOK