Mass Transit Update! - Important

[mheaton76]

Hey everyone,

I thought this article in today's NYT about an upcoming initiative in Cincinnati to add streetcars and light rail was applicable to this discussion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/us/14streetcar.html

I live in Norman, but drive everyday to Oklahoma City - and have GREAT interest in any mass transit initiative. I agree that downtown OKC is the place to start, and I bet it would take off quickly if designed well. Ultimately, anything forward looking should include the metro as a whole - as a Norman resident, I totally vote yes on any regional initiative that would tie us into Oklahoma City with a more robust mass transit system.



www.unitedstatesofmichael.com

[metro]

Good article michael, I'll see if I can get that into city council hands to see that we MUST do something about mass transit to stay competitive, or heck even just catch up.

All who are interested in attending the city council/Metro Transit workshop on the 19th, it got postponed until Sept. 30th due to Clara Luper Day being the 19th. Location is expected to remain the same. I will post more info as I receive it. We really need a good public turnout on Sept. 30th, to show there is a public demand for public transit. It won't be a workshop just for downtown needs, but for citywide transit needs.

[mheaton76]

Hey metro, I hope they do read it and that there are enough of us who show support at the grass roots level. Thanks for the heads up about the date change, I'll see if I can make it on the 30th...




www.unitedstatesofmichael.com

[BG918]

Hey everyone,

I thought this article in today's NYT about an upcoming initiative in Cincinnati to add streetcars and light rail was applicable to this discussion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/us/14streetcar.html

I live in Norman, but drive everyday to Oklahoma City - and have GREAT interest in any mass transit initiative. I agree that downtown OKC is the place to start, and I bet it would take off quickly if designed well. Ultimately, anything forward looking should include the metro as a whole - as a Norman resident, I totally vote yes on any regional initiative that would tie us into Oklahoma City with a more robust mass transit system.



www.unitedstatesofmichael.com

There are many more just like you who commute to OKC from Norman, myself included. Tying Norman to OKC (along with Moore and Edmond) is good for the whole Metro. Not only does it offer an alternative to congested I-35 it helps our air quality and creates denser development and TOD's around stations.

[discretion]

Not trying to be inflamatory, but...
Why should OKC government effort and tax dollars go to establish mass transit/rail routes from Edmond/Guthrie and Moore/Norman, thereby encouraging urban sprawl and having a negative impact on the tax base in the city center? Do you see my point?

It won't happen unless Edmond, Guthrie, Moore, Norman and other outlying cities are willing to share the cost. And OKC leaders may appear to be against it because the negative impacts on urban renewal outweigh the positive impacts. Just my thoughts...

[OKCisOK4me]

Not trying to be inflamatory, but...
Why should OKC government effort and tax dollars go to establish mass transit/rail routes from Edmond/Guthrie and Moore/Norman, thereby encouraging urban sprawl and having a negative impact on the tax base in the city center? Do you see my point?

It won't happen unless Edmond, Guthrie, Moore, Norman and other outlying cities are willing to share the cost. And OKC leaders may appear to be against it because the negative impacts on urban renewal outweigh the positive impacts. Just my thoughts...

That's exactly what I stated in another topic on this board. The connecting cities need to pay 30%-50% of the cost for installation & their stations. Look at DART in Dallas. Cities like Frisco have to front their part of the bill if they want the service!

[Superhyper]

Not trying to be inflamatory, but...
Why should OKC government effort and tax dollars go to establish mass transit/rail routes from Edmond/Guthrie and Moore/Norman, thereby encouraging urban sprawl and having a negative impact on the tax base in the city center? Do you see my point?

It won't happen unless Edmond, Guthrie, Moore, Norman and other outlying cities are willing to share the cost. And OKC leaders may appear to be against it because the negative impacts on urban renewal outweigh the positive impacts. Just my thoughts...

I'm fairly sure that's how it works in most every light-rail systems. The outlying communities have to agree to be included and then fund their portion of the system. No city is ever going to pay to service other communities (unless it's retail base really wants it to, but I don't see that happening ).

[BG918]

Of course Norman, Edmond, and Moore would have to "pay to play" so to speak. Every other commuter/light rail line that I know of works that way where the city and suburbs share the cost of connecting each other with the state and/or federal govt. helping pay the rest.

Salt Lake City is a good city to look at because it is very similar to OKC in terms of size and density. It also has a distinct north-south growth pattern similar to OKC that is now connected by commuter rail with 15 min. frequencies in stops during rush hour and 30 min. at other times from 5 am to midnight all week. I would hope our system would run until 2 or 3 am on weekends though.

A map of their system


The commuter rail cars (would be similar to what we would use on a Norman-Edmond line)


The light rail cars (similar to what we would use on a street-based line in downtown)


Map of what our system could be someday with commuter rail and light rail converging in downtown
[IMG][/IMG]

And just Metro commuter rail/Adventure District tourist train
[IMG][/IMG]

[metro]

Good post BG918. For those interested, FOX 25 Morning News interviewed me today on this same topic. It should air in their morning news tomorrow. I believe at the 6:30, 7:00 and 7:30am segments. Anyhow much more importantly, keep the dialogue going on mass transit, write your city councilperson and tell them how you feel. The City Council has moved their workshop to Sept. 30th, location is expected to be the same and time is TBD.

[BG918]

Here is a map of Houston's "starter line" which has been successful in linking the huge Texas Med. Center to downtown. It is also the basis for a much larger network.


Here is what OKC's starter line could look like, connecting the two main areas of employment in central OKC: OUHSC and downtown while also hitting the north end of the rapidly developing residential Triangle district, right through emerging retail corridor Auto Alley, right by Deep Deuce and Bricktown on E.K. Gaylord, and then down our new grand blvd. next to the Ford Center, future convention center, and park.


Once the new convention center is built and the Cox is torn down and redeveloped it will be a great catalyst for high density growth on that site with light rail running next to it. If we can get some kind of streetcar along Sheridan (the "green line" mentioned here before) connecting the Arts District, Devon Tower, and Bricktown that would connect with this line at E.K. Gaylord that would really be good for connecting people in downtown. Add commuter rail from Edmond and Moore/Norman connecting at Santa Fe Depot (E.K Gaylord & Sheridan/Reno) and you suddenly have a viable transit system that could be used by thousands of people daily.

[angel27]

Wow. Can you imagine us having such a system! What a structure. Then no matter what happened with fuel pricing we could be set. In looking at this, and how important a feature that would be to our metro, it would be worth it to redesign our beautiful C2S around this idea. And to move I40 in accordance. It would give us the bones to support wonderful and sensible growth. It would benefit all socioeconomic classes. If it were possible.

[metro]

The City has moved the Transportation workshop to Tuesday, September 16 from 8:30 - 11:30 am at the OKC ZOO, Educational Building. The public is strongly encouraged to attend. The workshop will be for mass transit issues for the city as a whole and not just the Downtown Trolley's. The more people that show, the better chance we have to continue to put pressure on the city to do something about implementing a functional mass transit system for this great city!

[metro]

Downtown neighborhood association submits trolley route change request
Wednesday, 20 August 2008




The Oklahoma Spirit Trolley serves as a means of public transportation in Bricktown, downtown and on the near south side of Oklahoma City. Plans are being considered to improve trolley services in the city. Here, one of the wheeled trolleys waits at the corner of N. May Avenue and Interstate 40.

Notes from the Aug. 12 City Council meeting
From Sentinel staff reports

Urban Neighbors (U.N.), downtown’s residents association, presented a comprehensive three-page report to the Oklahoma City Council last week requesting that the downtown trolley system be reviewed and updated to meet modern demands.


“We are very optimistic that Mayor Cornett and the City Council will recognize the need for a massive revamp of our mass transit system in this city, and be receptive to overhauling the system so that it might meet the needs of downtown residents, workers and visitors,” said Urban Neighbors Board Member Jeff Bezdek. “We anticipate Mayor Cornett and the City Council will come up with a comprehensive plan and solution over the next few months and create a line in next year’s operating budget for a more functional trolley system. The downtown transit system must also make sense for the future as well by being environmentally friendly.”
The Oklahoma Spirit Trolleys currently operate similar to city busses, with routes throughout the downtown area and the I-40/Meridian corridor. Some residents and tourists have complained that the trolley system is difficult to figure out and doesn’t always run according to its posted schedule.
As if the U.N. had a crystal ball, just before the trolley presentation the City Council heard the results of a recent citizen’s survey that shows public transit is once again ranked as a high concern of city residents. In fact, the issue ranked as the second highest priority, behind only maintenance of public streets. Public transit was a strong concern from last year’s survey also, and this year it was 10 percent higher with 38 percent of residents ranking it as the top priority.
The most challenging aspect of the current trolley system, according to the neighborhood association’s report, is that it does not efficiently serve the needs of the growing and diversified downtown community.
“As an organization we are dedicated to bringing vital issues concerning downtown to the city. Urban Neighbors is proud to be a vital link between the City of OKC and downtown residents” Bezdek further commented. “Our hope is that this will be an important first step with the city in creating a modern mass transit system to meet downtown needs.”
Michael Scroggins, spokesman for Metro Transit, said his department agrees with much of what the U.N. has to say.
“We know we have some issues we need to work on,” Scroggins said. “There’s more tourism now and downtown is a busier place. The whole environment has changed down here.”

Read the rest of this story in the August 20 issue of The City Sentinel

[metro]

Bus systems lure riders with plush seats and Wi-Fi
Journal Record

August 22, 2008

WASHINGTON (AP) – Think of the typical city bus, and you’re likely to picture old vehicles with hard seats and noisy brakes that belch diesel fumes as they jerk from stop to stop. Transit agencies want you to take another look. They’re rolling out more attractive and comfortable buses, convenient express routes and even on-board Wi-Fi.

High gas prices and a tight economy have made all kinds of transit, including buses, more popular. In the first three months of 2008, 2.6 billion trips were taken on public transportation in the U.S., a 3 percent increase over the first quarter of 2007, according to the American Public Transportation Association. Bus ridership increased 2 percent to nearly 1.5 billion trips. Buses may lack the hipness of subways or light rail, but they are the best hope for accommodating large numbers of new riders quickly and affordably.

To harness the increased demand for mass transit, officials are turning to new ways of delivering and marketing their bus service. Ted Mann, an Arlington, Va., resident, has been a regular bus rider since totaling his car a year ago and has noticed the improvements. Mann, 66, said the Washington area’s extensive transit service has meant he hasn’t felt compelled to buy a new car. Still, he can testify to the image problem that buses face.“The other night I was with a group of people, and the fastest thing to do was to get on the bus. Some of these people had never been on a bus – as if this was some awful low-class way,” he said.

Nationally, bus riders tend to be poorer than rail passengers. According to a 2007 national study by public transportation association, 21 percent of trips by rail are made by people with household incomes less than $25,000, compared with 43 percent of bus trips.

On the other side of the spectrum, 30 percent of rail trips are made by people with incomes of $75,000 or higher, while only 12 percent of bus trips are. Metro, the Washington region’s transit agency, hopes a makeover will help buses’ public relations problem. This month the agency is introducing new buses with a modern red and silver color scheme, cushioned seats and sound-deadening floors for a quieter ride.“People who wouldn’t normally take the bus – they can see this beautiful piece of art here and want to take public transportation,” said Milo Victoria, Metro’s assistant general manager for bus operations.

Elsewhere, transit agencies from Chattanooga, Tenn., to Cincinnati to Oakland, Calif., have introduced Wi-Fi on buses, particularly those on longer commuter routes. Metro plans to make Wi-Fi available at elaborate new bus shelters in Arlington, which will also feature heated seats and electronic signs with bus arrival and departure information.

And transit systems are looking for inexpensive ways to make bus trips faster. Cincinnati’s Metro received permission this month to make permanent an arrangement that allows buses to travel in the left shoulder of Interstate 71 when traffic is heavy. Other systems use technology that keeps traffic lights green when a bus approaches. Transit systems are also adopting more fuel-efficient alternatives to regular diesel buses, helping insulate them from rising fuel costs while also providing another selling point for potential passengers who care about the environment. In Philadelphia, for example, the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority has ordered 400 new diesel-electric hybrids, with the first 100 to be introduced by the end of the year.

In the Washington region, the emphasis on improving bus service marks a shift. Metro’s rail system, a federal project of the 1960s and 1970s, has long been the local favorite. Home buyers often pay a premium for proximity to a Metro station while bus routes don’t have the same cachet.

Metro General Manager John Catoe, who arrived at the agency last year with a mandate to improve bus service, said nicer vehicles and more convenient service will go a long way to changing the mode’s image.“We painted the picture of the bus,” he said. “We as an industry need to repaint the picture and make it attractive.”Expanding and improving Washington’s bus service is critical to shift some of the pressure off the rail system, which is packed during rush hour and has little room to add longer or more frequent trains.

Catoe has proposed an extensive network of express buses that would use shoulders or bus-only lanes to help meet the region’s immediate transportation needs.Such an initiative would require millions of dollars in new equipment. Washington’s new 60-foot articulated buses cost nearly $800,000 apiece – a total of $17.4 million for 22 buses.But that’s nothing close to the cost of expanding the rail network. For example, a project to extend Metrorail 11.6 miles in northern Virginia carries a $2.6 billion price tag, and it won’t be done until 2013 at the earliest.“Right now we have the issues,” Catoe said, “and we don’t have a lot of time to be building things.”



Alexander Best uses his laptop with a Wi-Fi connection on board AC Transit’s Transbay Express bus at a bus depot in San Francisco on Wednesday. Transit agencies want you to take another look at buses. They’re rolling out more attractive and comfortable buses, convenient express routes and even on-board Wi-Fi. AP PHOTO

The Journal Record - Article

[bombermwc]

BG - your Eastern side won't do though. You have to connect out to Tinker...or maybe even Shawnee. Just in the Mid-Del area, you have well over 100K people in and out every day, not to mention the Tinker employees. Plus there's a rail line already going through the middle of town.

[BG918]

BG - your Eastern side won't do though. You have to connect out to Tinker...or maybe even Shawnee. Just in the Mid-Del area, you have well over 100K people in and out every day, not to mention the Tinker employees. Plus there's a rail line already going through the middle of town.

That could be the next phase after the Edmond-Norman and Downtown-Airport commuter lines are finished. With the way the city works though we should be dancing in the streets once the first train pulls out of the station.

I think the possibility of connecting our densest inner city neighborhoods and employment centers with light rail/streetcar is really exciting. Building up the densities in these parts of town should be a high priority and the LRT helps reinforce that. Remember Classen once had trolleys, we are simply reinstating that service 60 years later...

[lasomeday]

I think those are great, but we would have to have a light rail line going down Reno connecting Yukon/Mustang area to downtown and then on to the Midwest City/Del City area.

[blangtang]

they should build a line that is from downtown to the capitol, so that people see it can succeed.

we need a starter line, to get it rollin'

[rondvu]

Sad to say but OKC's mass transit is lacking. I have been overseas several times and rode the public transportation. It's easy to understand, takes you where you want to do and inexpensive. I live on route 8 and it has to be one of the worst thought out routes. I attempted to ride it as a learning experience but, the darned bus did not show up on time so I walked back home.

[metro]

Tomorrow is the city council's mass transit workshop at the Zoo conference center. Again, it's open to the public, but public comment won't be accepted. If you can make it, just showing up will help show your support for a modern usable mass transit system in our great city!

[plmccordj]

I have spoken on the issue of the poor bus service in the Oklahoma City metro area many times. It is shameful that our city refused to make a viable bus system that covers all major arteries with regular service. With gas prices approaching $4.00 a gallon, it is tough for many people to afford to drive. This has been a topic of discussion for years that our city has the worst bus system than any city of comarable size in the United States. There are entire sections of the city that get no service at all and those that do, are sporadic at best. On a good day you will wait no less than one hour at any bus stop in the metro area. I live four miles from downtown Oklahoma City and I would have to walk two and a half miles to find the nearest bus that runs four times a day.

I have been very proud of our city in many respects but am ashamed at their lack of leadership in this area. The reason that I decided to post this message was that I just heard a story on KFOR channel 4 about a meeting to discuss the bus system. They cut to a city council member that suggested cutting all services except downtown. This means the areas with virtually no service would actually get no service at all. I work at Tinker AFB, the largest single site employer in the state with more that 20,000 full time employees. Our city does not have any bus service to Tinker at all. This lack of leadership that I referred to is made evident in the words of this councilman when he said it would be irresponsible to pay $54 million a year to expand the bus system with no gaurantees that ridership will increase. This coming from a guy who voted to give $17 million to Bass Pro Shops to rent a store downtown. I was not completely opposed to this because I knew there would be a return on the investment.

He is trying to make this same claim about the bus system. The problem with that is that our city leaders have deliberately made our bus system meet minimum governmental requirements knowing that it would fail to attract riders so they can claim that no one will ride the bus. I have lived in the Oklahoma City area for 32 years and this city has never had an acceptable bus system even one day. They do not cover the city with acceptable service and no one wants to ride the bus. The very few bus stops that are in the city do not have any cover whatsoever. You are lucky to have a bench in the hot sun or snow. When a person has to sit out in the weather for more than an hour at best, you are never going to get a serious ridership. The city leaders use this history of poor ridership as an excuse to say the bus system will not get a return on its investment. These decisions are calculated and deliberate. Our city leaders do not want to spend money on a bus system so they create an environment that results in a self fulfilling prophecy of no riders.

I think this tactic is shameful and needs to have a light shined upon it. I have lived in many other cities that have much better bus systems than ours and a couple were actually smaller cities. I think that our leaders need to be thinking about the citizens that are struggling to pay for gas. There should be regular bus system, meaning at least ever 30 minutes, to every major artery in the metro. This service should continue no earlier than 10:00 PM daily. Yes it would be expensive at first but in the long term it would pay for itself. This notion that no one would ride the bus is ridiculous. They have zero evidence to prove that because Oklahoma City has NEVER had full time bus service throughout the metro area. I have never seen a city that had regular service that did not have heavy usage. In Phoenix, Tucson, and Denver they were heavily used by people of all socioeconomic backgrounds.

A real leader would step up and take responsibility and do the right thing. If we can afford to spend $54 million to buy the old General Motors plant, and $121 million to upgrade the Ford Center, I really believe we can do this. For the record I did not oppose those other initiatives again because I know they will bring a return on the investment. The bus system will bring a return on the investment as well. The assumption that a bus system will cost $54 million to improve the bus system makes the assumption that people will be riding for free and no fees will be collected. It neglects the idea that less cars would be on the road. We need to take a stand and tell our “acting” leaders to step up and actually be one. Let’s get a bus system that can be depended upon to get our citizens around.

[BG918]

I have spoken on the issue of the poor bus service in the Oklahoma City metro area many times. It is shameful that our city refused to make a viable bus system that covers all major arteries with regular service. With gas prices approaching $4.00 a gallon, it is tough for many people to afford to drive. This has been a topic of discussion for years that our city has the worst bus system than any city of comarable size in the United States. There are entire sections of the city that get no service at all and those that do, are sporadic at best. On a good day you will wait no less than one hour at any bus stop in the metro area. I live four miles from downtown Oklahoma City and I would have to walk two and a half miles to find the nearest bus that runs four times a day.

I have been very proud of our city in many respects but am ashamed at their lack of leadership in this area. The reason that I decided to post this message was that I just heard a story on KFOR channel 4 about a meeting to discuss the bus system. They cut to a city council member that suggested cutting all services except downtown. This means the areas with virtually no service would actually get no service at all. I work at Tinker AFB, the largest single site employer in the state with more that 20,000 full time employees. Our city does not have any bus service to Tinker at all. This lack of leadership that I referred to is made evident in the words of this councilman when he said it would be irresponsible to pay $54 million a year to expand the bus system with no gaurantees that ridership will increase. This coming from a guy who voted to give $17 million to Bass Pro Shops to rent a store downtown. I was not completely opposed to this because I knew there would be a return on the investment.

He is trying to make this same claim about the bus system. The problem with that is that our city leaders have deliberately made our bus system meet minimum governmental requirements knowing that it would fail to attract riders so they can claim that no one will ride the bus. I have lived in the Oklahoma City area for 32 years and this city has never had an acceptable bus system even one day. They do not cover the city with acceptable service and no one wants to ride the bus. The very few bus stops that are in the city do not have any cover whatsoever. You are lucky to have a bench in the hot sun or snow. When a person has to sit out in the weather for more than an hour at best, you are never going to get a serious ridership. The city leaders use this history of poor ridership as an excuse to say the bus system will not get a return on its investment. These decisions are calculated and deliberate. Our city leaders do not want to spend money on a bus system so they create an environment that results in a self fulfilling prophecy of no riders.

I think this tactic is shameful and needs to have a light shined upon it. I have lived in many other cities that have much better bus systems than ours and a couple were actually smaller cities. I think that our leaders need to be thinking about the citizens that are struggling to pay for gas. There should be regular bus system, meaning at least ever 30 minutes, to every major artery in the metro. This service should continue no earlier than 10:00 PM daily. Yes it would be expensive at first but in the long term it would pay for itself. This notion that no one would ride the bus is ridiculous. They have zero evidence to prove that because Oklahoma City has NEVER had full time bus service throughout the metro area. I have never seen a city that had regular service that did not have heavy usage. In Phoenix, Tucson, and Denver they were heavily used by people of all socioeconomic backgrounds.

A real leader would step up and take responsibility and do the right thing. If we can afford to spend $54 million to buy the old General Motors plant, and $121 million to upgrade the Ford Center, I really believe we can do this. For the record I did not oppose those other initiatives again because I know they will bring a return on the investment. The bus system will bring a return on the investment as well. The assumption that a bus system will cost $54 million to improve the bus system makes the assumption that people will be riding for free and no fees will be collected. It neglects the idea that less cars would be on the road. We need to take a stand and tell our “acting” leaders to step up and actually be one. Let’s get a bus system that can be depended upon to get our citizens around.

Well said, Mayor Cornett are you listening?? I will say Norman has pretty good service with CART.

[LordGerald]

Well said, Mayor Cornett are you listening?? I will say Norman has pretty good service with CART.

Norman is a bit smaller in size than Oklahoma City. Plus, it has a dedicated funding source due to student fees at OU. You can't compare the two.

[gmwise]

Norman is a bit smaller in size than Oklahoma City. Plus, it has a dedicated funding source due to student fees at OU. You can't compare the two.

Then the bus system should have dedicated funding that isn't at the whim of the city council which is so not dedicated in doing whats really needed.
Such as .25 sales tax. and really update the bus fleet.
Many don't know that the mechanics @ the bus system is frustrated for the lack of spare parts.
Recently McClendon made a few commericals "saying his good friend Pickens" is into the CNG option.
I would like to see if as did Pickens did{ie Pickens ordered from GE 2$ bln worth of turbines}, if AM would be as kind as to furnished as a gift to our "big league City's mass transit" showing as his dedication to CNG, as his good friend.

[LordGerald]

Then the bus system should have dedicated funding that isn't at the whim of the city council which is so not dedicated in doing whats really needed.
Such as .25 sales tax. and really update the bus fleet.
Many don't know that the mechanics @ the bus system is frustrated for the lack of spare parts.
Recently McClendon made a few commericals "saying his good friend Pickens" is into the CNG option.
I would like to see if as did Pickens did{ie Pickens ordered from GE 2$ bln worth of turbines}, if AM would be as kind as to furnished as a gift to our "big league City's mass transit" showing as his dedication to CNG, as his good friend.

A dedicated funding source is needed, but it would require a vote of the people. As such, it needs to be done on a regional basis, likely county by county, say every county in our MSA or our transportation study area. Then, the funding should go to a separate regional transit authority (RTA) that it not a trust of the city. Operating costs would still need supplemental assistance from the state and feds.

An RTA would be able to help develop public/private partnerships that would encourage corporate support from potential players like Chesapeake.

Basically, the system needs a complete makeover. COTPA should be dismantled and built from the ground up.