Top 100 Small Cities - GRIPE!

[Spartan]

You have to go to Oklahoma City for the best in shopping and entertainment locally, don't you?

Nope, and furthermore, once we finish building the nation's 4th largest shopping project, OKC will be comin to us.

Isn't Norman's bus system owned by Oklahoma City?

It's owned by the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments and the entity of Metro Transit.

Isn't the NOAA headquarters there called Oklahoma City?

Absolutely not.

Isn't there a greater exodous of workers into Oklahoma City whereas there is a flow of students from OKC into Norman?

There are actually a lot of OKC and Moore residents that work in Norman, a lot more than you would think. Norman's corporate scene is very advanced. And at 8:30 in the morning on I-35 in the north part of Norman, guess which side is always at a stand still? The southbound side entering Norman.

Isn't Norman's area code 405 - which is for the CSA of Oklahoma City?

So are Stillwater and Chickasha. In fact they're even in the trade region, as well as the CSA.

Would OU's memorial stadium be standing room only if Norman wasn't part of Oklahoma City?

No way to know. I know that College Station is the largest stadium in the Big XII.

The only independent things I can think of Norman of is - Norman supplies its own water and sewer.

Funny you bring that up, cuz we also supply OKC with a considerable portion of its drinking water. How's Lake Dirtybird taste for ya?

[Spartan]

You have to go to Oklahoma City for the best in shopping and entertainment locally, don't you?

Nope, and furthermore, once we finish building the nation's 4th largest shopping project, OKC will be comin to us.

Isn't Norman's bus system owned by Oklahoma City?

It's owned by the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments and the entity of Metro Transit.

Isn't the NOAA headquarters there called Oklahoma City?

Absolutely not.

Isn't there a greater exodous of workers into Oklahoma City whereas there is a flow of students from OKC into Norman?

There are actually a lot of OKC and Moore residents that work in Norman, a lot more than you would think. Norman's corporate scene is very advanced. And at 8:30 in the morning on I-35 in the north part of Norman, guess which side is always at a stand still? The southbound side entering Norman.

Isn't Norman's area code 405 - which is for the CSA of Oklahoma City?

So are Stillwater and Chickasha. In fact they're even in the trade region, as well as the CSA.

Would OU's memorial stadium be standing room only if Norman wasn't part of Oklahoma City?

No way to know. I know that College Station is the largest stadium in the Big XII.

The only independent things I can think of Norman of is - Norman supplies its own water and sewer.

Funny you bring that up, cuz we also supply OKC with a considerable portion of its drinking water. How's Lake Dirtybird taste for ya?

[so1rfan]

You get OKC TV stations dont you? You get OKC radio stations dont you? You have to go to Will Rogers World Airport for flights, dont you? For Federal Court, dont you have to go to Oklahoma City?

You have to go to Oklahoma City for the best in shopping and entertainment locally, don't you?

Ask those same questions about Lawton, Enid, or Muskogee. (subsitute Tulsa for OKC if needed.)

[venture]

As far as the NOAA offices for SPC, NSSL, etc....

NWS Norman, Oklahoma - Enhanced Weather Page

On every bulletin...(examples)

HAZARDOUS WEATHER OUTLOOK
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORMAN OK
1155 AM CDT WED JUL 23 2008

DAY 1 CONVECTIVE OUTLOOK
NWS STORM PREDICTION CENTER NORMAN OK
1106 AM CDT WED JUL 23 2008

The NOAA offices are very much so designated using Norman, not OKC. The identifier they go with is OUN...which is pulled from KOUN - or Norman Max Westheimer Airport.

I don't see why people have a hard time in thinking Norman can stand on its own. Hot Rod, sorry, a lot of the examples you give can be duplicated over and over elsewhere. Area codes, mass transit, etc.

[Chicken In The Rough]

All the Norman-OKC bickering aside... I agree with the title of this thread.

I enjoy reading these types of articles. But it is not fair to lump true small towns together with suburbs. As someone else mentioned, all those Collin County, Texas "small towns" are run together, and I believe that the population of Collin County may exceed that of OKC (proper). Are Frisco, Plano, Allen, and McKinney small towns when their combined population exceeds 600,000?

I agree that Money should divide this "best places" list into two categories: suburbs and independent small towns. I'd love to see how some of my favorites rate.

Sanning the entire list, I saw only 4 non-suburbs: Madison, Fargo, Bismarck, and Rocherster (MN).

By the way, I can speak for Bismarck. It is truly an exceptional small town.

[Spartan]

Sanning the entire list, I saw only 4 non-suburbs: Madison, Fargo, Bismarck, and Rocherster (MN).

Norman?

[solitude]

All the Norman-OKC bickering aside... I agree with the title of this thread.

I enjoy reading these types of articles. But it is not fair to lump true small towns together with suburbs. As someone else mentioned, all those Collin County, Texas "small towns" are run together, and I believe that the population of Collin County may exceed that of OKC (proper). Are Frisco, Plano, Allen, and McKinney small towns when their combined population exceeds 600,000?

I agree that Money should divide this "best places" list into two categories: suburbs and independent small towns. I'd love to see how some of my favorites rate.

Sanning the entire list, I saw only 4 non-suburbs: Madison, Fargo, Bismarck, and Rocherster (MN).

By the way, I can speak for Bismarck. It is truly an exceptional small town.

Thanks for your response. I hated the thread getting sidetracked with the Norman thing. I even said in my original post that Norman could possibly be an exception. I'm glad you agree and I would like to see a true Money list like we want. This is a controversy every time this particular list rolls around. Surely, one of these days, we'll get what we're looking for!

[JWil]

Here's the ultimate question: If Norman were where Woodward or Enid was... how big would it be? Exactly.

About the size of Woodward or Enid. Norman enjoys a lot because of its location to OKC. It's a suburb. It has a ton going for it, but that also has to deal with a having a major national university in town.

Normanites seem to be developing a mini-Tulsa attitude about their relationship with OKC.

[dismayed]

Sigh.

So we gripe about not having civic pride in our city/metro/state/etc. in every other thread on this board, and then we gripe when we encounter people who are actually happy and even proud of the city they live in within this state.

From my perspective us Norman residents simply expressed pride in this article's release and were met with scores of folks coming up with every excuse on why Norman is leeching off of OKC, etc. etc. etc., with implications being that either OKC should be on the list instead or that Norman isn't that great of a place, it's just propped up by other cities in the neighborhood, or maybe the list itself is invalid. God forbid people actually want to live in Norman.

How ironic that many of you are treating us exactly the way you hate being treated as Oklahomans by people from outside the state of Oklahoma.

You want people to start treating this state positively? Start acting the way you want to be treated.

[kevinpate]

dismayed ... it's just Norman envy ... don't be too harsh on them. If we lived in OKC, we might also be inclined to consider it as a part of OKC. We'd be just as mistaken, but I can see how it happens.

After all, Norman is far more attractive and more vibrant and experiencing greater growth than many subsections within OKC proper. I'd almost be surprised if OKC folks weren't trying to claim it.

But it is amusing that when Humprhies wants to build off 36th street that fabtastic insightful infilling but as Norman infills again and again well within its long established city limits, its seen as sprawl and proof that Norman is growing into Oklahoma City.

It's a bit like watching the kiddos at Christmas all in all, but certainly nothing to get angry over.

[Kerry]

Here's the ultimate question: If Norman were where Woodward or Enid was... how big would it be? Exactly.

About the size of Woodward or Enid. Norman enjoys a lot because of its location to OKC. It's a suburb. It has a ton going for it, but that also has to deal with a having a major national university in town.

Normanites seem to be developing a mini-Tulsa attitude about their relationship with OKC.

I agree 100% JWil. If Norman was not part of the OKC metro it would be the size of Stillwater.

[venture]

Nah...nothing but a bunch of hypocracy going around. People bitching about Norman, are the same ones saying we should have unified civic pride in OKC...and damn the rest. Now two cities with in the OKC metro area are named to the top 100 best list, and they are all pissy.

How big would Norman be? It depends. If all the larger companies and government agencies are still in Norman - then the size may not be much smaller than Lawton. However, it does come down to location. Lawton has I-44 and other good transportation access to it. Woodword and Enid? Not so much. If anything, the lack of a true highway connectivity up there has a huge impact.

Compare it to other college towns...and really it won't be all too different. Ames, IA...still close to Des Moines (30 Mi) is over 50K people, College Station is almost 75K people, etc. Really it comes down to it, no one knows what size Norman would be.

Stop complaining...it is a great thing that Norman and Edmond were part of this list. They have a lot to thank OKC for, but people in OKC also need to realize that both towns put a LOT back into OKC that the City would otherwise not have.

[AFCM]

I consider Norman to be more of a satellite city rather than an actual suburb, much like Kansas City, KS is to Kansas City, MO.

No matter how you slice it, I'm happy to see an OK-based city make the list. Kudos to Norman and its residents.

[okcustu]

Norman isnt a real city on its own right no commercial flights even lawton has that, and the largest employer is a university, no real downtown or CBD just some campuses in far flung cprnets of the suburb. I'm laughing at the bit about people from all over metro will be coming to the s&@those park towne centre, yeah because we don't have super target and the dress barn elsewhere in the metro

[ShiroiHikari]

So, going by the area code thing, Purcell and Lexington are also OKC suburbs? Haha, yeah right. Purcell/Lexington is like 50 miles away from OKC. If anything, Pur/Lex area is a suburb of Norman, lol. You have to go up to Norman to get anything if you live in that area!

[okcustu]

So, going by the area code thing, Purcell and Lexington are also OKC suburbs? Haha, yeah right. Purcell/Lexington is like 50 miles away from OKC. If anything, Pur/Lex area is a suburb of Norman, lol. You have to go up to Norman to get anything if you live in that area!

Norman can't have suburbs remember its not a real city its that's the case then Arcadia is a suburb of Edmond and Frederick of Lawton. The area code thing was dumb but the MSA is Edmond to Norman and Choctaw to Yukon.

[HOT ROD]

Norman guys, you're taking this way too far. It sounds like an inferior complex.

Nobody here would argue that Norman isn't a great place or doesnt belong on the list. In fact, Im sure most people are happy about it. Edmond too.

However, the argument that was presented is the list is not really fair to REAL SMALL cities - like Enid, Duncan, and Ardmore; because those real stand-alone small cities can't compete against suburbs of major metropolitan areas.

And like it or not, but Norman is as big and important as it is because it is a suburb of Oklahoma City. There is no separation, other than civic government, and even that is only at the municipal level, above that - everything is Oklahoma City.

Like I said, I don't think anybody is complaining here that Norman made the list or that Norman is a bad place - we're only saying this is so because it is a suburb, and that add's to it's Greatness.

Edmond would be NOTHING without OKC - we know this. Broken Arrow wouldn't exist without Tulsa. Denton would be smaller than Valley Brooke if it weren't for Dallas. Bellevue would still be a fishing village if it weren't for Seattle. Naperville would only have 5 people if it weren't for Chicago.

Norman would be a Stillwater at best, if it weren't for OKC. But in reality, even Stillwater would be smaller than it is today if OKC didn't exist. This is because, as Spartan pointed out, it's all OKC CSA (meaning they're suburbs or exurbs of Oklahoma City).

And how could Newton KS EVER compare to an Oklahoma City suburb? Or a Seattle suburb? Or a Chicago suburb?

Perhaps I picked the wrong example with the NWS, but I used it because the NWS used to be located at WRWA but they moved to Norman - and so, I thought that when they do forecasting they identify themselves as OKC. Perhaps you guys are thinking instead of the National Severe Storms Forecast Center at NOAA, which does identify itself as Norman. But isnt the NWS still OKC, despite being in Norman?

Anyways, I don;'t think there's any reason to wet anyone's shorts if you will - it is great for Oklahoma City to have two suburbs making a top national ranking. And Im sure being a suburb added to that ranking (just like the other suburbs on that list) - which was the whole point of this thread.

[venture]

Hot Rod,

No...the NWS Forecast Office, which you are referring to, uses Norman as its city identifier...not OKC.

Again...refer to: NWS Norman, Oklahoma - Enhanced Weather Page

Also pull up any forecast or other product they put out, Norman is the only city listed for their location.

Also the NSSFC was disolved when the office in Kansas City was closed. It is just "Storm Prediction Center" for the office that puts out watch boxes, outlooks, etc.

OKCUSTU...I think commercial flights aren't a measure of any city, considering the number of cities - some much larger than Norman - are losing nearly all their commercial passenger service.

[HOT ROD]

Norman doesn't have ANY pax service, it's Oklahoma City.

Yet I do agree that commercial service is only a small indicator of a city's greatness. Many however, are inflated due to their being hubs (pax counted coming and going).

I stand corrected on the NSSFC. On my last visit to OKC in May, I went and finally visited the campus south of OU, and I was impressed.

Yet, I credited it to Oklahoma City and not ONLY (or Specifically) to Norman.

By the way venture, I typed in Oklahoma City into the main NWS site - and got this 7-Day Forecast for Latitude 35.48N and Longitude -97.54W

It says Oklahoma City as the metro/city, but Norman as the office location.

"NWS Norman, OK
Point Forecast: Oklahoma City OK
35.48N -97.54W"

[HOT ROD]

As for the Norman as an independent city argument.

I liken Norman to that of Boulder, CO; also an independent city that happens to be a suburb of Denver.

Boulderites consider themselves independent in many ways, yet still a suburb. Norman is the same way, and very very similar to Boulder. (although Boulder has a MUCH more impressive downtown than Norman).

[jsibelius]

I look at this way...Norman may really consider themselves an independent city and they may truly have the industry to sustain themselves without leaching off of OKC. However, they will always be considered part of the OKC metro area, which pretty much makes Norman a suburb, like it or not. Also, only those who live there or who have lived there see it that way. Anyone looking on a map or just driving through will see Norman as a suburb.

Having come from a truly stand-alone city, where it was several hours in any direction to a bigger city, I definitely understand this gripe, and wish there was a distinction between suburbs and stand-alone cities. When you're looking for a place to live, believe me, this makes a difference! Not everyone wants to live in a huge city, even if it's in a suburb (even a "non-suburb" like Norman.) I would definitely want to know about the 100 best small cities that aren't attached to large cities. That would have been huge tool in my last job search. On the other hand, I was trying to avoid the bigger cities. Good thing I failed. Oklahoma City isn't quite the same. I'd commit hari kiri if I had to live in DFW.

[venture]

By the way venture, I typed in Oklahoma City into the main NWS site - and got this 7-Day Forecast for Latitude 35.48N and Longitude -97.54W

It says Oklahoma City as the metro/city, but Norman as the office location.

"NWS Norman, OK
Point Forecast: Oklahoma City OK
35.48N -97.54W"

Ummm, this is really pointless, but i'll point out the error. Type in any other zip code or city.

Humm Warr Acres says...
NWS Norman, OK
Point Forecast: Warr Acres OK
35.56N -97.59W

Point Forecast is something the NWS started a couple years ago...to where they are specific to a given point now. So of course, you type in OKC it is going to say OKC as the Point on the map...because those Coordinates are within Oklahoma City. The funny thing, in Eastern Norman...it will still say Hall Park for a certain portion even though they were annexed in years ago.

This whole thing has really gotten stupid. Norman residents are proud of their city. OKC residents appear to be like "you would be nothing without us." We all know that isn't the case. Norman was growing long before the land - Moore - started filling in the gap. Heck, a lot of that has been in the last 10 years. I remember driving north on I-35 and there would be several miles of absolutely nothing.

OKC residents should be glad to have strong outlying cities like Edmond and Norman. Think of the years when the Urban Core was dead...the outlying cities are what keep the metro as a whole going. Now the Core is alive and well and doing good. The main body no longer needs the life support that the surrounding cities give.