Downtown Walmart?

[toocooltim]

Where will the Murphy's filling station fit?

[BDP]

Just to be clear, I am not trying to represent a knee jerk reaction to Wal-Mart in any of its incarnations or to any market of any type. I am just trying to ask the questions that I honestly don't think any of our city leaders, developers, or decision makers have been asking.

So far it seems that we've just been taking whatever we think we can get without consideration of the opportunity cost it may have in attracting other retailers or how it will shape the emerging neighborhoods in character and lifestyle. I kind of get the feeling that no one wants to steer downtown development outside of "let's just build stuff". I think that may have been warranted in the beginning and could even have justified the mentality that led to publically financing Bass Pro. But we can see now that there is no real hard evidence that supercenters spawn urban development and one can even make a case that it has hindered in on some levels.

I just have to assume that anyone wanting to live or shop downtown are attracted to that idea as something new a different for Oklahoma City. If we go forward with simply developing it in the same way as the rest of the city, with the same services with the businesses models down to having the exact same businesses that dominate the rest of the city, would we really be developing a new living option and, subsequently, a new marketing angle for Oklahoma City?

Whether you have contempt for Wal-Mart of similar supercenters are not, you can not deny that they dominate the Oklahoma City market place already. Having one downtown, even if it is "stacked" as opposed to spread out, doesn't really bring anything new to the city and in many ways seems to undermine this whole concept of building up the core. This is why I was asking if everyone thinks that supercenters could coexist with neighborhood markets (not the wal-mart stores branded as such, but real markets for neighborhoods).

Or, maybe everyone feels that the goal is to just recreate our suburban inventory in an inner city zip code. If that's the case, then the premium currently set on the area seems a bit silly. I would think that the area only has a premium value if it offers a choice of living not available anywhere else in the city. So, I'm just wondering if people think that a supercenter could bring something new to the city and, if not, would it hinder the ability to create an new living environment for Oklahoma City?

[jbrown84]

I'm with you BDP.

It's very good reasoning.

[betts]

Whenever possible, I shop at locally owned stores, even if it cost a bit extra. Grant Humphreys has said he is planning to open a "boutique" grocery store, perhaps in the Flatiron building. Undoubtedly it will be a bit more expensive, but I consider supporting these types of concepts money well spent. For anyone planning to purchase housing downtown, a Walmart in the Bricktown area negatively affects property values, IMO. I agree that there are buildings down there that would make even a Walmart a positive change, but it's not they way we need or want to go. Better to move slowly and carefully and get it right the first time. I don't like the thinking "We'll get something in that location, and we can always tear it down." Like begets like, and we need to push for quality buildings and retail even now.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Trendy Urbanism or Real Urbansim?

Whole Foods or something like Save-a-lot?

[okclee]

I like shopping at Braum's for produce and of course the dairy products. Locally owned, and the prices are reasonable , if not cheaper than even the almighty Wal-Mart.

[BDP]

Trendy Urbanism or Real Urbansim?

I'm not sure who you are asking, but, imo, urban is not necessarily defined by the actual services per se or their hipness, but how they are incorporated into the neighborhoods. Whole foods and Sav-a-lot have urban locations, but they are not really urban concepts and their business models usually are not necessarily focused on serving the immediate neighborhood. Their volume requirements to meet their ROI targets mean they have to build bigger, draw from outside walking or public transit access, and have more items per transaction than most urban neighborhood markets. It ends up being urban in highly dense cities like a NY, Chicago, SF, etc., but in OKC, for them to work, they would definitely have to draw from outside that downtown area to meet their target volume. So, the question is, can any major retailer locate downtown, serve a wide area of the city, while not undermining the intended urban living characteristics of the area?

[stlokc]

A Whole Foods similar to the one in Downtown Austin would draw from the whole city.

[BDP]

I think any of these examples would draw from the entire city and would be considered a failure if they did not. They couldn't survive otherwise. But is that the objective? Bass Pro draws from the entire state, but did nothing to turn the area into a booming urban retail district.

I don't doubt that these concepts could work in Oklahoma City, but I also know that they would have an easier go at it in another part of the city and I am not sure exactly how it would affect the development of downtown going forward. I think you have to ask why would someone want to live in downtown Oklahoma City? What are they looking for? Do these concepts actually address that market?

[glennp]

I don't remember where I saw it but there was a report put out on Bricktown's website stating they would not allow a Wal-mart in the area. Their ultimate goal is to see a Whole Foods, Kroger, or Costco. The store concept would be at least a two story concept. One location they have been looking at is NW 10th and Broadway. The second one I can't remember if it was Walnut or Walker. They really want a grocery store that represents the people living down there.

However, I have also heard that largest thing holding those retailers and any others from moving to Oklahoma is no alcohol sales. This could very well be true because alcohol (wine and spirits) are some of your most profitable sales.

[stlokc]

I have never understood this grocery store argument as it relates to residential growth downtown. Someone please explain it to me.

When I was growing up in South Edmond, we were 2 or 3 miles from a Homeland, which was a 5-7 minute drive. Nobody thought one thing about it. We never thought we were too far away from a grocery store. It seems to me that in that same span of time, someone could drive from Bricktown to NW 23rd, or wherever the nearest traditional retail row is, if they absolutely need a big box grocery store. I think people use "lack of a grocery store" more as an excuse than anything.

The best thing for Downtown retail would be many, many small neighborhood shops; not just in Bricktown but in the traditional business district and in Midtown as well. Target both downtown dwellers and visitors from the suburbs: funky furniture stores, art galleries, bakeries, clothing stores. Also smaller, more boutique-type grocery stores (Google City Grocers in St. Louis, MO for an example) Small shops force people out of their car so they can browse and window shop, intersperse them along the canal or along the streets among the restaurants. This makes for a much more vibrant downtown than the sea of parking lots that would ultimately accompany a large grocery store.

[jbrown84]

I think your right, stlokc. As a downtown resident, I think the Neighborhood Market at 23rd and Penn is close enough for a big grocery store. I would just like some smaller grocery stores in the CBD and Midtown/Auto Alley areas.

[bdub02]

Whole Foods would not only benefit downtown but the whole metro. If a grocery chain locates downtown, it needs to be something different from other areas of the metro.

Little Rock is soon getting a Whole Foods, but I don't know if OKC ever will as long as there are 1920s era liquor laws in place. Has Whole Foods specifically stated they will not locate in OKC until the liquor laws are changed?

[trison]

When Whole Foods enters the market they are not going into downtown first. They will show up in Edmond and Norman. Not trying to burst anyone's bubble but the chances of downtown getting a large grocery store in the near future are pretty slim. I see a Eatsy's knock off or maybe an Aldi but not a 40,000 square foot major grocer. The demographics in downtown will not support one and until their are 10's of thousands of residents a major grocer will not even consider an area. The one thing everyone forgets is there is a Walmart Supercenter at Northwest Expressway and Classen which is less than 10 minutes from downtown. Everyone talks about not having a grocery near but I currently drive more than 20 minutes (due to traffic) to shop for groceries now. We need to concentrate on small speciality stores which is what I think everyone really wants. Gourmet is they way to make downtown unique.

[Pete]

When I was growing up in South Edmond, we were 2 or 3 miles from a Homeland, which was a 5-7 minute drive. Nobody thought one thing about it. We never thought we were too far away from a grocery store. I

But people that live in a downtown are seeking an urban environment, not a suburban one. They want to be able to walk or ride their bikes to stores, services and cultural venues.

There are plenty of affordable and convenient places to live all over OKC... The key to a thriving inner city -- as BDP mentioned -- is offering something you can't get elsewhere.

As an example, the Brownstones at Maywood Park are selling for $500-700K for a place with no yard and plenty of steps to climb. For that same money, you could buy a heck of a place anywhere in town... Clearly, people are hoping for a different type of lifestyle when they pay that kind of premium.

And besides all that, downtown residents are hoping for a different kind of grocery store that will cater more to their tastes.

[Kerry]

To answer STLOKC and some others - downtown OKC needs a neighborhood grocery store that is within walking distance. Yes you could drive your car to the Homeland 3 miles away because when you got home with your 15 bags of food you parked in your own driveway right in front of your house. You gave no thought to making 5 trips from the trunk of your car to the kitchen counter. However, an urban dweller doesn't have this luxury. They usually have to park in a garage or on the street where they compete for parking with others. Plus, their trip from the trunk to the kitchen table usually involves locking the car, taking an elevator ride, unlocking the apartment, and then repeating the process back to the car. Since you don't want to give up coveted parking spaces unless you have to, you have to make fewer trips to the store which compounds the grocery hauling problem. It is just easier if you can walk to the store 2 or 3 times a week and buy 1 or 2 bags of food each time.

BTW - Atlantic Station in downtown Atlanta has a SuperTarget and it doesn't seem to take away from the urban feel. In fact - I think it helps lure potential residents. My wife didn't even want to go to Atlantic Station for lunch one day because whe thought it was "too urban" but when she saw the Target she kind of relaxed because she saw something familiar. I suspect the people that have a problem with a downtown Wal-Mart would have no problem at all with a SuperTarget.

[Architect2010]

thats ^^^^ absolutely true. Ppl live differently in urban areas, and they choose to live that way... but they should have access to a close store they can walk to.
I really hope we get a nice grocer downtown.
and Hecks Yes I would prefer Target in our downtown over wal-mart anyday
Target is so much more upscale, Their buildings are all way more aesthetically better than wal-marts and I just think they could pull of an urban location just so much better than a wal-mart

[Kerry]

Thanks Architect2010 but you just proved my last point. All this talk about downtown residents wanting something different is just BS. Everyone pretty much wants the same thing no matter where they live. I think there is just an anti-Walmart philosophy out there. I personally avoid Wal-Mart and prefer Target but not because I think Wal-Mart is some kind of evil empire. It is the clientel that goes to Wal-mart that keeps me away. I also don't like the crowded aisle or broken metal shopping carts. I choose to pay more to have a better shopping environment. It is the same reason I bought a house in a gated community and not in the low rent district.

Someone pointed out earlier that "urban" is not necessarly trendy stores as much as it is how retail blends in with a downtown environment, be it a Trader Joes or Homeland. Atlanta has a Trader Joes between mid-town and Buckhead and it doesn't look any different than any other suburban shopping center. However, the Publix in Atlantic Station (normally seen as a suburban grocery store) fits every characteristic of an Urban store.

[bdub02]

Target actually keeps their stores clean and they smell decent, in major contrast to Wal-Mart supercenters. They sell higher quality products and they don't have the negative stigma about them that Wal-Mart does. This stigma means a lot to the typical urban dweller. And they aren't even that much more expensive!

Plus, I am sure it would be a lot easier to get Target to abide by a strict design code than Wal-Mart.

[metro]

Why are we still talking about a RUMOR about WalMart. I have seen nor heard any sufficient evidence that this RUMOR is even remotely a possibility. I guarantee you Mick Cornett and most of the city council is competent enough that even if OCURA or someone donated the land for an "urban WalMart" they will not let them get a permit. They've learned from BassPro to some degree.

[PapaJack]

This thread is both amusing and academic to me . That’s because the urbanites argue against Wal-Mart and for Target even though the economcs will never support either store in OKC’s CBD. The land is too expensive and there are simply not enough “rooftops.”

What would work is a Braum’s market. You can get about 90% of your food there, and as previously noted, the cost is close to Wal-Mart while the quality is better.

I’ve experienced the urban groceries of NYC and Boston and found them to be overpriced, of questionable quality and quite unfriendly. They were however, “the only game in town” and accepted by the locals. OKC is not ready for this concept, and I’m thankful for that.

For several years, my wife and I have been patronizing both the Wal-Mart and Target super centers at Quail Springs. She prefers Target because it is cleaner and more upscale. I don’t like the 10% to 25% greater prices at Target. Yesterday we shopped at Target and at least we saved $20.00 on the price of Fair tickets. It appears the “discerning” Wal-Mart crowd has discovered Target.

[Rifleman2C]

What would work is a Braum’s market. You can get about 90% of your food there, and as previously noted, the cost is close to Wal-Mart while the quality is better.

This is a brilliant thought! You can get everything you need from a Braum's Market for dinner without having to worry about carrying too much home!



Everyone wins! And the folks that don't live downtown can still get ice cream for the trip back to the 'burbs!

[bdub02]

I found this:



and...



Proof that Wal-Mart can be urban if they are forced into it.

[Swake2]

I believe Tulsa is getting one.

The Seayco Group of Arkansas is building an "urban" (have to wait to see what that means) Wal-Mart Supercenter on the east side of downtown Tulsa. It's only going to be about 3/4's as large as a normal supercenter and will include a parking garage and about 150 condos. Parking will be "screened", whatever that means.

There's a lot of heartache in this project as they bought the heart of the land for what was going to be "The East End" development out from under Global Development. Tulsa was going to get a downtown baseball stadium, now we get a Wal-Mart.

I would expect that Seayco is also looking at downtown Oklahoma City, developers often look at both cities at the same time. Your University North Park in Norman is Tulsa's Tulsa Hills for instance, they have the same developer and are going to be nearly identical.

The comments about Whole Foods is right, the majority of their stores are not in downtowns, they are in upscale areas outside of downtown. Tulsa's is in Brookside. Walgreens would be a good downtown option, in Chicago they are the main downtown grocer.

[PapaJack]

White Plains is about as urban to NYC as Norman is to OKC.

Where on the East side of downtown Tulsa will the urban WalMart be located?
Will it be closer than the Classen Homeland is to OKC's CBD?

I hope Walgreens sells better groceries in Chicago than it's food selection in OKC stores. Are there any websites/pictures?