Homeless Population

[TU 'cane]

Homelessness is definitely not something we can just wave money at think it'll be fixed. I'll assume based off the previous comments that most, if not all, of us are aware there are different variable groups within the homeless population that respond differently to this or that.
There are those who do not want help. There are those who do not know where to go for help. There are those who are incapable of asking for help or even adequately functioning when help is given.

It's a giant cluster that seems to be getting worse (I don't know if it actually is). And while homelessness is a part of every society, there should be ways to effectively combat it and that begins with the greater culture. As corny as it may sound, love and respect are the cornerstones needed. Churches have, historically, taken care of homeless populations or other groups at need. They still do, but we've also seen other groups and forms of care being given as well.

My advice: if this is an issue near and dear to your heart, find one or two reputable homeless shelters, organizations or inner city churches to donate money to. How you decide to directly interact (or not interact) with homeless on the street is entirely up to you. I won't fault anyone, especially with children, for not wanting to interact with some of them directly.

[soonerguru]

^^ It appears we are throwing money at it, and doing so at the citizens' request, as a part of Maps 4. And I fully support it. The initiatives we are doing will no doubt make things better than if we did not do them at all.

People know we need to be doing something so that's why they supported Maps 4 with the biggest voter share of any of the Maps projects. Homelessness was consistently the number one poll generator, along with addressing mental health.

This seems to cut across partisan lines in OKC: Democrat, Republican and Independent voters all massively support putting investment into looking for solutions to ameliorate this problem.

This is clearly more than a city can take on itself. The USA distinguishes itself among developed nations in the amount of poverty it has, the lack of guaranteed healthcare, and the lack of education of its citizens. This is the dark side of the American dream. We are, and always have been, a nation of haves and have nots.

Housing affordabilty is obviously at a critical state in this country now as well. Places that used to be considered cheap, like OKC, are no longer cheap anymore.

[Plutonic Panda]

LA is throwing billions at it and it isn’t working.

[soonerguru]

LA is throwing billions at it and it isn’t working.

Billions? I hadn't heard that. Seems like a lot of money. Are you sure you're not being hyperbolic?

That said, how do you know it's not working? What are the benchmarks for success?

This gets very dicey because you have to ask yourself how bad things would be there if they weren't doing anything.

Ending homelessness seems like hopeless pursuit, but I'm buoyed by the success of Houston's housing first initiative. Technically, OKC has been a "housing first" city since 2013, but we didn't have a lot of housing to move people into. Now we have the tiny homes that were recently opened and other initiatives.

What Houston did that was so effective was to bring together a patchwork of non-profits and get them all to work together. The approach used there has had miraculous results, and is being eyed as something to model in OKC, too.

I think the things OKC can do modeling Houston and other successful efforts will make a significant impact on our situation.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ this is recent: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna22635 https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/la-west...omeless-crisis

https://homeless.lacounty.gov/news/l...or-fy-2022-23/

[Rover]

So what’s your solution?

[Plutonic Panda]

So what’s your solution?

Well obviously part of it is going to have be more money. That’s not my point to not spend money on it. What’s the solution? You tell me. I don’t know. No city has figured out as far especially in America.

[soonerguru]

Well obviously part of it is going to have be more money. That’s not my point to not spend money on it. What’s the solution? You tell me. I don’t know. No city has figured out as far especially in America.

Did you totally ignore what I wrote about Houston, lol? I encourage you to read this article and get back to us with your thoughts.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/h...ss-people.html

[Laramie]

There's $50 million budgeted for Homelessness in MAPS 4, to my knowledge it has not been used.

[Plutonic Panda]

Did you totally ignore what I wrote about Houston, lol? I encourage you to read this article and get back to us with your thoughts.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/h...ss-people.html

Thanks I’m going to check that out!

[soonerguru]

You're welcome! I found it tremendously uplifting to read.

[catch22]

I really don't think much is going to change. This is just as much a national, even global issue than any single state or municipality. If people want this fixed it will take a lot of work, and expect it to take at least 2-3 generations.

It's a problem that has many fronts. It's easy to classify all of the homeless into one group; but really that group is diverse and requires a multi-faceted strategy to address problems unique to those individuals.

I think the most essential part of the problem to solve is preventing people from entering the "pipeline" of the homeless. This starts in junior high and high school. Identify the at-risk and help to keep them from ending up in these camps. Once someone gets into a homeless camp, they aren't coming out of it. It's a black hole of humanity. We need a robust system targeted at 13-25 year olds to keep them out. Not a free lunch program at school, or a weekend canned food drive put on by your local MegaCorporation as part of their CorporateFeelGood strategy. Affordable college used to be this program. Even if they learn nothing and drop out, it is something for young adults to do, where they can build their own safety net of friends outside of family. Friends are the first place people in trouble turn to, as asking family for help can be very intimidating and scary. Right now, your at-risk population does not go to college. They limp through high school, see the financial challenges of college, and ultimately either end up in a very bad job, or end up with no job at all. Some sort of free college system, with little-to-no hoops to jump through, for at least the first few years, would put a major kink in the homeless pipeline. If people can hit the ground running they are less likely to get pulled under. Not fool-proof, but it would help. Put as many kinks in the pipeline as you can. Some will still trickle through.

How do you address the current homeless? The longer someone is homeless the more likely they are to be permanently homeless. Trying to round people up who are already in camps, is mostly a lost cause. Once you are in a camp, you are not coming out of it very easily. If you are to target any group of the homeless, it would need to be a surgical precision operation. Find people sleeping in their cars in the walmart parking lot. They are staying out of camps. They most likely still have a job, or are willing to work. They haven't given up. Go after helping those people. Don't ticket and trespass them -- let them sleep and put a note on their car for free resources. They are the most likely to use them. If the city/state had a temporary housing/shower/laundry program those are the people most likely to use it. Get them a clean pair of clothes and a clean bed to sleep on, line them up for some temporary work, and they will pull themselves out of it. It's a waste of resources targeting homeless camps with these resources. They don't want the help. The homeless who are not in camps will take the help. But they need to be treated humanely. Embarrassing them with tow trucks, cops, and trespassing tickets will ensure they 100% move on somewhere they will be left alone: like a homeless camp. The black hole. Don't let people go to the black hole.

How do you deal with homeless camps? You have a very delicate balance if you want to deal with them. Once a camp has grown to a large enough size, the homeless will actually stop/slow down on stealing things. It's all junk but they eventually slow down on the theft once they have reached a comfortable level of "Stuff". Come in with a dump truck and throw it all away? That's a great way to get them to go out and steal a lot of more stuff. Believe me, they will find more stuff to steal. So by trying to extinguish the crime, you just stirred the hornet's nest. They are going to go out and look for more stuff. So do you leave it alone, let it have equilibrium? Many at this stage in life have no ID, so you can't really prosecute them. You can charge them with a million crimes but none of it will stick without ID. Besides, where would you put them? Our prisons are overcrowded, and our courts are full. I don't know what to do here. But it seems the best policy is really to leave them alone. The homeless have a relatively short lifespan. The goal, again, is to cut off the pipeline of young people entering that system. The young people work the corners bringing in money, they pay their rent to the homeguards or homebums who run the camps. This is usually in drugs, beer, or food which they steal or purchase from whatever they get panhandling. By cutting off the young and new homeless these homebums will likely die off, and their camps will wither away.

You really have to view this in the frame of mind of triage. Focus all of your resources on those who can still be saved. Move on and let the others die off. Anyone who is homeless who wants help will take it. Those are the people showing up to the kitchens and sleeping in their cars which still run.

I'm not talking out of my ass on this subject: I do have experience in this field. One hobby of mine involves interacting with this alternative world. I slept out on the streets in Portland and Seattle just last weekend, right outside 2 homeless camps. I can blend in with the vagrants. If you want to fix the problem you need people to go in and see how these communities actually function. Just a little bit of time in the vagrant world and you can spot who can still be saved. Most, unfortunately cannot. Keep people from joining the camps. That's the only way to fix it. Throwing endless amounts of dollars with no context on how any of it works is a waste of time and money, and in many cases can cause the situation to worsen; like throwing all their crap away. A shopping cart and stolen honda civic can only hold so much stuff in it. Throw it away and they will find another civic and shopping cart to fill up with junk.

[OKCbyTRANSFER]

Catch, I agree with the saving those that are not in camps. Most in their cars, have just gone over the edge but hanging on with the very last I what they have, and many still work/have jobs but make minimal income or housing is no longer in reach.
The VA has many programs for homeless Vets, not perfect, but we really should not have them on the street. Many don't want or accept the help (for many different reasons). I don't have a good answer either, but I support the outreach, shelters and such, but not the panhandlers.
Your hobby, kinda scary for me, no judgement here but I give you and anyone else working with the homeless credit.

[rtz]

If every person on the street was on a $2,000 monthly payment program; I don't think they would all go get an apartment and just watch TV all day. So not having any money is not the only or main problem.

Also; if they are all on 'food stamps' due to lack of income; now they basically have unlimited free food and sleep anywhere they can. In the day time they are just existing and that's the hardest part of that life style. Day after day of more of the same.

There are ways to deal with the "problem" and ways to make it go away. You may not like or agree with the ways. But there are ways.

[catch22]

What are those ways? Outlawing it has never worked, only shifted the problem to another city who has to deal with it. Fix it at the root. Stop people from being in situations in that they becoming homeless. Once they enter a camp you have about 48 hours to get them out of it or they will get sucked into it and never escape the cycle.

You can’t round them up and relocate them without their will, because of our constitution. You can’t throw them in jail because of due process, and no where to even put them in jail. You can’t mass execute them, for a myriad of reasons. You have to play the long game if you really want to fix the situation- and that starts with at risk youth and our brave men and women coming back from wars. You have to be okay with the problem outlasting your and the next generation. But it can be dramatically resolved if you start today with the people who will be homeless 5 years from today.

Without a steady pipeline of new homeless, the current camps will die off. You have to intercept the people who are on the edge. Relocating camps doesn’t work. It makes it worse. Camping bans don’t work, it makes it worse.

What are your solutions?

[rtz]

Instead of having them stand on the corner selling newspapers; approach these people on a one on one basis and say "what do you need to get off the street". What prevents them; what holds them back? Do they need help filling out an application at OnCue? What if they were given a cheap car and a gas card? Some money to get back on their feet?

Someone at lake Hefner who drives that ex airport shuttle bus pays them like $60 or $70 a day to cut and clear brush on the south end of the lake.

There's all sorts of mass labor projects they could be employed doing. From picking up trash on the highway to sorting and recycling all that is in the landfill. Half of it will be compost and the rest being metal, glass, and plastic.

[rtz]

I have lots of extreme and out of the box ideas. But they are just ideas. Post your better ideas more so then dislike and disagree with mine. All we need is the best and ultimate idea to change everything.

Down in Miami Florida they are wanting to put them all on that island. We could put them all south of the border wall in Mexico. Have the border patrol do their job and make sure no one crosses over that wall.

Since there are no longer mental institutions; they could all be housed in prison. Place to sleep and 3 meals. Get sober and cleaned up and even get a college degree while they figure out a plan. Remember that prison out west that was a big tent city. Unlimited capacity.

Really though; it's a situation of mental health issues and substance abuse and addiction. A lifestyle choice. If they don't care; they don't care. Just a lazy existence. Can they be helped if they don't want help?

[catch22]

Instead of having them stand on the corner selling newspapers; approach these people on a one on one basis and say "what do you need to get off the street". What prevents them; what holds them back? Do they need help filling out an application at OnCue? What if they were given a cheap car and a gas card? Some money to get back on their feet?

Someone at lake Hefner who drives that ex airport shuttle bus pays them like $60 or $70 a day to cut and clear brush on the south end of the lake.

There's all sorts of mass labor projects they could be employed doing. From picking up trash on the highway to sorting and recycling all that is in the landfill. Half of it will be compost and the rest being metal, glass, and plastic.

I agree. I apologize for coming across harsh - I got a vibe from the way I read your post that you were suggesting camping bans, etc.

It really has to be a targeted approach. These catch-all programs do not work. You have to have people out in the community interacting with these people on a daily basis. Anything short of that is just throwing good money after bad. As you say you need to identify the individual needs of each one. Start from the most easily helped and at least stop some of the bleeding.

Very expensive, and very labor intensive. But that’s what it will take.

[rtz]

Money.
Housing.
Food.

Individuals dealing with potential mental health issues and or drug/alcohol issues.

That City Rescue Mission on Reno and Shartel. If feeding/housing is the solution; then they need to expand their operation to house all of them. Plenty of vacant, idle buildings around. Pass an ordinance no camping under the bridge and enforce trespassing and loitering when seen.

[Edmond Hausfrau]

One way that states inadvertently contribute to the amount of homeless? Children who age out of foster programs and other DHS services. When a state has a high rate of children in foster services or in juvenile facilities, as we do in Oklahoma, we turn them loose at 18. I don't know the answer to this but I do know that DHS creates a pipeline for homeless adults by having such an ungodly number of kids and teens in their care.

[Edmond Hausfrau]

Money.
Housing.
Food.

Individuals dealing with potential mental health issues and or drug/alcohol issues.

That City Rescue Mission on Reno and Shartel. If feeding/housing is the solution; then they need to expand their operation to house all of them. Plenty of vacant, idle buildings around. Pass an ordinance no camping under the bridge and enforce trespassing and loitering when seen.

City Rescue Mission is not a low barrier shelter. There is a bed cap, they require ID, and I believe they still require a TB test. They're a private entity, so no one can just tell them to "expand their operation to house all of them".

[Edmond Hausfrau]

I have lots of extreme and out of the box ideas. But they are just ideas. Post your better ideas more so then dislike and disagree with mine. All we need is the best and ultimate idea to change everything.

Down in Miami Florida they are wanting to put them all on that island. We could put them all south of the border wall in Mexico. Have the border patrol do their job and make sure no one crosses over that wall.

Since there are no longer mental institutions; they could all be housed in prison. Place to sleep and 3 meals. Get sober and cleaned up and even get a college degree while they figure out a plan. Remember that prison out west that was a big tent city. Unlimited capacity.

Really though; it's a situation of mental health issues and substance abuse and addiction. A lifestyle choice. If they don't care; they don't care. Just a lazy existence. Can they be helped if they don't want help?

I have lots of extreme and out of the box ideas. But they are just ideas. Post your better ideas more so then dislike and disagree with mine. All we need is the best and ultimate idea to change everything.

Down in Miami Florida they are wanting to put them all on that island. We could put them all south of the border wall in Mexico. Have the border patrol do their job and make sure no one crosses over that wall.

Since there are no longer mental institutions; they could all be housed in prison. Place to sleep and 3 meals. Get sober and cleaned up and even get a college degree while they figure out a plan. Remember that prison out west that was a big tent city. Unlimited capacity.

Really though; it's a situation of mental health issues and substance abuse and addiction. A lifestyle choice. If they don't care; they don't care. Just a lazy existence. Can they be helped if they don't want help?

Prisons are already the largest provider of mental health services in our country. (We do still have mental institutions, in that we have state run psychiatric hospitals as well as forensic hospitals). Given the current overcrowding of prisons, adding to that population seems unsafe.
I agree with catch22 that the most successful programs involve teams actually going out and offering services in the field, the VA is a good example and they have a goal of zero homeless vets. Columbia Medical Center used to have a fellowship where docs went out to deliver mental health meds, shots, etc. at underpasses, camps, bridges, but I believe they lost their funding.
It's not just the mentally ill or substance users who are homeless. Economic inequality in this country and the skyrocketing rate of medical debt mean that just one or two twists are all it takes to quickly see how easy it is to lose employment, housing, your sense of self-worth.

[PlannerDawg]

One of the reasons is that MAPS has put more money into homeless services. As more services are offered, more people will come to take advantage of those services.

[dankrutka]

One of the reasons is that MAPS has put more money into homeless services. As more services are offered, more people will come to take advantage of those services.

It almost seems like you're saying this in a bad way, but, of course, that's how building or providing everything works. Should we not build sidewalks because people keep walking on them?

[Rover]

It almost seems like you're saying this in a bad way, but, of course, that's how building or providing everything works. Should we not build sidewalks because people keep walking on them?

Good point. I guess if our housing is cheaper here more people will want to move here. Drat those invaders.