Another city gets light rail

[HOT ROD]

You can think of an MSA as an area where people shop, work, and live. If people living 20 miles away from a city centre venture to the city limits often enough (not sure what the figure is) to shop or work OR if they must come to the central city for urban services, then it is usually considered MSA. CSA is the surrounding area from the MSA where people venture into the central city less often but still do for essential goods and services.

The size of OKCs MSA and CSA does not surprise me at all. You all think of Cincinnatti and Seattle as big cities - but in fact, it is their CSAs that make them big. Cincin has less than 300k people in the central city but their MSA includes southern OH and Northern KY. Their CSA touches Louisville MSA! Some would even argue that Louisville should be included into Cincin CSA because healthy pop ventures to cincin for goods and services.

Ditto that for Seattle, which is 560k central city and 1.7 mil MSA (which are cities that more or less tough Seattle (just like OKCs MSA). Well, Tacoma also has a MSA (which is 1.2 mil) - BUT for high-end essential services nearly everyone in the Puget Sound travels to Seattle (or Vancouver BC). So, Seattle's CSA is nearly 4 million people! and includes an area the size of OKC to Tulsa (NO KIDDING!!!). Do people in Tacoma really care about Seattle, NO but for hi end shopping or major league sports, well you have to go to Seattle or Vancouver, but Seattle is much closer. So, the Tacoma MSA is part of the Seattle-Tacoma-Bremerton CSA.

I sincerely doubt that Tulsa MSA would ever join into the OKC CMSA. Tulsa has enough essential services to keep their MSA coming there. Aside from Transient visitor or state commerce (or the recent concerts, entertainment, and sports) most Tulsans do not have to come to OKC, and vice versa.

But, I bet you that Stillwater goes to OKC quite often! As does Enid, Lawton, and most every other city in the original 405 area code. That is why OKC got a CMSA! Because an expanded population relied heavily on OKC than just the MSA.

Now, why was Pot county dropped from OKC MSA and moved to the CMSA? I have no idea. Technically, the OKC limits tough Pot County, which is indemnific (did I spell that right) of a MSA. And yes, Grady County (Guthrie) is part of OKC CMSA. Actually, it should be part of OKCs MSA, because there is almost NOTHING in Guthrie so they have to come down the 30 miles or so to OKC and Edmond for shopping, services, and certainly Entertainment!

Sorry for the long message, but I wanted to chime in here because I think there was beginning to be doubts about how important OKC is to the state. It is very similar in nature that Seattle is to my state - Washington. Or Portland to Oregon, or Denver to Colorado.

Speaking of Denver, their CMSA goes alltheway to Wyoming, even tho Bolder has a MSA, Ft Collins has an MSA, CheyenneWY has an MSA (albeit very small); Denver CMSA includes all of them (except Cheyenne officially but really, everyone from Cheyenne goes down to Denver for everything, Cheyenne is like Guthrie but it is the state's capital and largest city).
They cut Denver CMSA off at Colorado Springs (I forget the county). That is some 200 miles N-S! We wont even talk about E-W (which Western KS and the whole state of CO and UT come to Denver as it is the ONLY Big city for 600 miles [then you run into OKC by the way]!).

[HOT ROD]

I think if OKC had better "organized commuter" situation you would have light rail. Unfortunately for OKC, everything is spread out - factories in western and southern, offices downtown and nw, and everything inbetween everywhere else.

Downtown OKC and the capital/health sciences centra are the only centralized commutes (besides Tinker but most Tinker people live nearby) in OKC but even then there are a plethora of freeways to get you there.

Right now, I think some 40,000 people work in Downtown OKC. Double that number with at least half commuting into downtown (meaning all of the current number commuting in from say Edmond), then OKC would be higher on the list for mass transit. This is what many call "critical mass."

Depending upon how you look at it, this is sad for OKC by its design (or good in that OKC never really has traffic problems except I-44 in western). And to tell you the truth, the outer loop freeway/turnpike really does not help OKCs chances for rapid mass transit. Trucks can bypass the central city, leaving those inner freeways for vehicles.

I wish Seattle was designed like this, but unfortunately for us we only have 1 N-S interstate for our whole region!!! and 1 E-W interstate! Seattle therefore is always congested, given the CMSA I told you about in the earlier post (stretching some 100 miles N-S). One interstate for 3.5 million people stretching some 100 miles N-S. Well, that is why Seattle gets a lot for transit for busses and commuter rail (although we currently dont have rapid mass transit either, but it is being built, sort of).

OKC has how many freeways? Freeways is hurting OKC just like it did LA. Look how big LA had to get before it got mass rapid transit. I think the LA area was at least 8 million people before they got their first light rail system.

Sometimes, freeways hurt trains!!! On another note tho, you have to take care of the freeways in the central city, otherwise commerce suffers. They should replace the I-40 downtown bridge but I wish they would move the alignment north a block near Union Station to preserve the rail yard. Why do they need the yard for the freeway? the State owns the land all around it, they can push the freeway north a bit in that area!

But still, it should be replaced; otherwise, look for OKC to begin showing up on the radar for a rapid system for downtown sooner than you think! Maybe that is a good strategy after all?

[Tom Elmore]

Funny story about the Phoenix system: Some may believe that "nobody was watching" what Ernest Istook pulled here in 1996 when he threw over his "fellow Republicans," Frank Lucas, Jim Inhofe, Don Nickles and Ron Norick to shoot down the $13 million (of our own money) that we wanted back for the MAPS I downtown trolley circulator.

However -- somebody obviously "was watching."

Recall that the Omnibus appropriations bill from which the OKC federal match was pulled included $35 million in startup funds for the Salt Lake LRT system. The starter line was ready and served well during the 2002 Winter Olympics.

Recall, as well, that, the purchase price of each gallon of fuel for public road use anywhere in the nation includes 2.86 cents federal tax for the Federal Transit Trust Fund. Oklahoma had sent in something over $30 million that year -- retrieving "the norm" -- less than $10 million. (Currently the "contribution" reportedly exceeds $70 million, annually.)

Fast forward to September, 2004. Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano wanted light rail down to Tempe -- but the "Istook wannabes" in her state legislature, "Mormon, conservative Republicans...," as they, themselves would style it -- were resisting. So, Governor Napolitano amazed all -- including reporter Le Templar with the Salt Lake Trib -- by making a surprise "pilgrimage to Salt Lake" to visit the 92 year old president of the LDS Church, Gordon B. Hinckley.

For her trouble, Gov. Napolitano -- who apparently is not a Mormon -- was roundly derided and pilloried in the "conservative press."

However -- in December, 2004, the Governor's effort apparently paid off, as US House Transportation Subcommittee Chair Istook, his Senate counterpart Richard Shelby in tow, appeared in Phoenix with, as I recall, the committment of $587 million for the light rail project....which had been extended down to Mesa, where it reportedly circles the 80-year-old Mormon regional temple.

Think about it.

In Oklahoma, Istook "threw over" his fellow Republicans to take away transit money they (sort of) "wanted." In Arizona, he threw over his fellow Republicans by giving them a half billion in federal transit aid they didn't want.

Would you say Governor Napolitano's strategy "worked," or not?

Who told Istook to "thow his buddies over?"

By the way -- among the last things Istook achieved for Utah before being virtually run out of the chairmanship on "a rail" -- was funding for a new, fast commuter rail line providing oil-crisis-proof-workforce-mobility to Tinker's competitor, Hill AFB, the "third ALC," from Salt Lake / Provo to the south and Ogden to the north.

How does the old Oklahoma City, Ada and Atoka Railway line from the north side of Tinker through the neighborhoods of Midwest City link to the rest of the region's railways?

Via OKC Union Station -- which links Tinker to Altus AFB, Ft. Sill, and Vance AFB.

Who influenced most of the money to fund ODOT's determination to destroy Union Station's yard, and with it all that longstanding connectivity?

Ernest J. Istook.

Will Istook's "strategy" "work out" -- or will we save our state's transportation and economic futures by frustrating it?

As said previously -- "Think about it."

TOM ELMORE

[blangtang]

T Elmore-

your riddle perplexes me.

are you saying that Salt Lake City has light rail because of E. Istook?

are you saying that, if only OKC had had the winter olympics, a politician from arizona would have come to Oklahoma to pander for transport projects from a local congressional representative, the result being a light rail project in OKC?

I hope things work out, nonetheless, the current public transit system is horrible, I blame COTPA!

cheers!

[metro]

Istook sure didn't help his own state much with federal dollars for transporation, that is for sure. Heck, he was chair of the transporation committee! I sure would like to see him put in the spotlight again. Oh BTW, we still don't have all the funds for the new I-40 relocation.