The Decline of Detroit - How To Prevent in OKC?

[OSUFan]

I also wanted to add. Remember when okc lost its gm plant, well X that by 6 and don't add billions in federal spending (thanks obama) that brought our gm plant back to life. I remember dozens of once nice homes going up for sale in south okc, westmoore, Moore and Norman areas that were asking considerably less than a few years prior.

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I might be misreading or misunderstanding what you mean. If so I apologize but I'm not sure I would describe federal spending as what brought our GM plant back to life.

[bchris02]

I really don't think OKC can be compared to Detroit in any way. The closest it ever came was the 1980s and 90s as a result of the combined effect of the oil bust and the Pei Plan and as bad as that was, it still didn't come close to where Detroit is today. In fact, suburban areas of OKC such as NW Expressway in particular were very nice at that time. It's been said that Detroit has very nice suburbs. I think the fact that OKC has so much suburban development within its city limits helped it weather the 80s and 90s and come out in a far better position than it would have if the core was its own municipality.

[ylouder]

Osu fan - what money do you think funds tinker? Department of defense? Their acquisition of the shuttered plant and now funds the aircraft repair that is now happening in that building. Whose money funds Boeing expansion across the street...who is their customer?

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[ylouder]

Maybe it's this tap talk app. But if you don't know who funds an airforce base I can't help you anymore

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[Jersey Boss]

Osu fan - what money do you think funds tinker? Department of defense? Their acquisition of the shuttered plant and now funds the aircraft repair that is now happening in that building. Whose money funds Boeing expansion across the street...who is their customer?

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In the interest of accuracy, the former GM plant was acquired by the citizens of Oklahoma County for better than $50m, and leased to the AF for $1.00 a year.

[ylouder]

Sorry my responses on this app are seeming kind of curt. Yes, the Oklahoma tax payers (you and i) paid GM to buy the empty facility and are now leasing it to the Federal Government. The work that is completed at the facility is funded by the Department of Defense through Congress appropriations; paid by you and I the tax payer.

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[Bellaboo]

Sorry my responses on this app are seeming kind of curt. Yes, the Oklahoma tax payers (you and i) paid GM to buy the empty facility and are now leasing it to the Federal Government. The work that is completed at the facility is funded by the Department of Defense through Congress appropriations; paid by you and I the tax payer.

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ylouder, You sound like you're paying for this entire facility by yourself ??? I know you are saying all of us, but would you rather have Tinker and all those jobs in some other state ?

[ylouder]

How? by saying taxpayer and you and I?

All that I offered is that we are lucky to not be like Detroit and having the federal government step in and reopen a shuttered gm plant.

A lot of people like to forget that Detroit was once one of the most important and prosperous city's in the United States and was within the top 5 for size. It was like a modern day Houston in its importance as the center for corporate, engineering, manufacturing, and support industries in its field. It was also a one trick pony.

I think it's important for okc to remember that in a lot of ways we are like Cleveland to Detroit. (Okc to Houston) and that we need to stay diversified or that we could look like either of those cities.

[Bellaboo]

How? by saying taxpayer and you and I?

All that I offered is that we are lucky to not be like Detroit and having the federal government step in and reopen a shuttered gm plant.

Sorry, Guess I didn't read it correctly.

[bchris02]

Well to be fair Detroit did have the government step in and actually bail out GM. That still hasn't improved the situation there.

Even if the OKC GM plant would have been closed and bulldozed, this city still wouldn't be Detroit. OKC's economy is indeed too focused on just a few industries, but it isn't Detroit.

[Just the facts]

Let's get something straight - no city in America compares to Detroit. That is why it is the poster child for sprawl gone bad. On a smaller scale some could argue Gary, IN is on that same level. Multiple documentaries were made for both cities to document their decay. OKC could never by Detroit today but we don't have enough urban core to do so. However, I could definitely see a time when suburban OKC will look like Prypiat.

[bchris02]

You can't blame sprawl for the state of Detroit either. Think of the cities in the US with the absolute worst sprawl yet they don't compare to Detroit. The places that do compare to Detroit are places like Gary, IN, East St Louis, Cairo, IL, and other rustbelt towns/cities that were primarily manufacturing towns that saw their jobs leave. The cities/towns in danger of becoming a Detroit are ones that are primarily based on one industry or even one company (think NW Arkansas without Wal-Mart). If Bank of America were to ever fail, that would be it for Charlotte.

OKC isn't the most diversified economy but its in better shape than some places are.

[ylouder]

Just the facts – that’s what I was alluding to earlier in saying ive been to Detroit and the surrounding areas. Taking out of account the war zone areas its density at times seemed about like okc. Everything is car based and every place is a 30+minute drive.

When times were good people played leap frog every few years and kept on building new houses a little bit further out and there was no investment in the city itself. Everyone commuted and everyone wanted at least an half acre, if not more to show off as a status symbol to show how much they made it.

New cars every few years, new bigger houses every few years and no investment in what was now considered old and the place starts falling down. Home builders loved this.

Then 1 side free trade agreements happened and it imploded.

Which is why okc always need to strive to be diversified, collect actual taxes during boom times from oil companies to reinvest in itself (not this 2 percent tax rate that was just passed), and address endless spawl seeing commutes from Guthrie is now considered North Edmond, Noble is South Norman, El Reno is West Yukon, and Shawnee is East Choctaw.

Because eventually, 1 industry towns are forced to move on.

[bchris02]

A one-industry town could adhere to every new urbanist idea and theory out there and it could still end up largely abandoned if that industry dried up. That's what killed Detroit, not flight to suburbia.

[Dubya61]

... and Shawnee is East Choctaw. ...

I live on the east side, and somehow, Shawnee just isn't part of the metro. There's this odd no-man's land out there that seems to put Shawnee in OKC's blind-spot and vice versa. Maybe that'll change when I-40 gets widened to 3 lanes (OK County wide), but I don't think so. In another thread, someone commented on the fact that OKC and Tulsa are very much in tune with the rural nature of OK. I can't say for Tulsa, but I'll bet that's because a lot of OKC is rural in and of itself. I was talking with a woman the other day who is planning on moving out to the country on her dad's farm -- by the racetrack! OKC is an odd rural bird.

[bchris02]

I agree that Shawnee isn't part of the OKC metro and I hope it stays that way. I am sure people do make the commute but I can't imagine doing so.

[Plutonic Panda]

Detroit did not fall because of sprawl, and anyone suggesting that shows extreme bias or lack of knowledge on the issue.

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree that Shawnee isn't part of the OKC metro and I hope it stays that way. I am sure people do make the commute but I can't imagine doing so.

Isn't it part of the MSA?

[Dubya61]

Isn't it part of the MSA?

Maybe according to Wikipedia, but not in the general sense.

[bchris02]

Isn't it part of the MSA?

It's part of the CSA or combined statistical area. Shawnee has its own micropolitan area. It is not part of the traditional MSA.

[OSUFan]

Osu fan - what money do you think funds tinker? Department of defense? Their acquisition of the shuttered plant and now funds the aircraft repair that is now happening in that building. Whose money funds Boeing expansion across the street...who is their customer?

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Of course I know who funds the work going on a Tinker. I'm just saying to label the reuse of the former GM facility nothing but federal spending is really misleading. The citizens of Oklahoma County made a huge, huge investment in that facility and their role shouldn't be trivialized. It wasn't simply "federal spending".

[Dubya61]

I look quickly on Wikipedia re: OKC MSA/CSA, etc., and found a construct that is even bigger than the Texas Triangle: The I-35 Megalopolis! From KC down to Laredo, it's a huge entity. When the city states come around in 2020, I hope we're in THAT one.

[ylouder]

Yes. We (Oklahoma county) made a huge investment to buy back a building that we paid gm to build.(through incentives and tax breaks) Now the work that is performed there is paid for by our tax dollars. So gm got paid twice by us and we get paid 1 dollar to pay the federal government to build airplanes for war. Pretty clever

[venture]

Detroit did not fall because of sprawl, and anyone suggesting that shows extreme bias or lack of knowledge on the issue.

No one single thing led to the decline of Detroit. Ignoring that shows an extreme bias or lack of knowledge on the issue - to quote you. The downturn of the auto industry definitely was a leading driver but so was sprawl and white flight to the burbs. There was no reinvestment into the core of Detroit, it is all in the burbs on the west and Northwest side of town. I'm not sure how much time you have spent up there, but I grew up in the region and know it quite well. Royal Oak, Troy, Rochester, Bloomfield, etc are all pretty upscale and no where comparable to the city of Detroit. Many tend to forget that the city itself can't compare to the burbs in terms of wealth.

If that wealth had stayed in the city of Detroit and the reinvestment took place there, they would have done much better.

[bluedogok]

No one single thing led to the decline of Detroit. Ignoring that shows an extreme bias or lack of knowledge on the issue - to quote you. The downturn of the auto industry definitely was a leading driver but so was sprawl and white flight to the burbs. There was no reinvestment into the core of Detroit, it is all in the burbs on the west and Northwest side of town. I'm not sure how much time you have spent up there, but I grew up in the region and know it quite well. Royal Oak, Troy, Rochester, Bloomfield, etc are all pretty upscale and no where comparable to the city of Detroit. Many tend to forget that the city itself can't compare to the burbs in terms of wealth.

If that wealth had stayed in the city of Detroit and the reinvestment took place there, they would have done much better.

Not having a completely corrupt government with many prominent officials getting indicted every few years might have helped Detroit as well. People fled a lot of things when leaving Detroit whether it was to the burbs or the Sun Belt. The government there ignored that fact for many, many decades.