Is Santa Fe station possible as OKC's intermodal hub?

[Kerry]

Urban - when I said the downtown station would need to be on the Cox site, I meant that it would also incorporate the existing Santa Fe station. Sure the City needs to do due diligence but some stuff is so obvious I feel it is safe to assume. Can Santa Fe handle train traffic in its current configuration? Sure it can. Can it function as a modern intermodal facility? No way. Just look at other cities around the world and see if any of them have a primary facility as small as Santa Fe. There is a reason they don't.

[Urban Pioneer]

And what part of the facility do you feel is too small? I mean, go ahead and itemize it so people know specifically what you are referring to.

And how far out into the future should we plan for? Just the FGS 30 Year needs or more?

[easternobserver]

The idea of putting a transit hub in the yet to be built convention center should not be overlooked. In Boston, the North Station MBTA station is integrated into the Fleet Center (or whatever it is called now), providing a gateway for subway and commuter rail. Now, the primary AMTRAK station and the other half of the commuter rail is still at South Station, but the model works nontheless.

[brianinok]

I'm not sure why some of you are suggesting we build such a massive facility. You are pointing out transit centers in London and suggesting if we build anything smaller we are thinking "too small." The London metro area has 14 million people, England has 52 million, and Great Britain (including Scotland and Wales) has 60 million. All those 60 million people are in an area just slightly larger than Oklahoma. They have DENSITY. We will not have near the traffic any of London's terminals have (at least for quite some time). I think it would be a massive waste of money to build something the size of Victoria Station right off the bat. Last year more than 77 million people passed through Victoria Station.

What we should do is build a facility that can easily accommodate current and 10-20 year projected needs, that can be expanded further after that if the need is there. We need to see the results of the transportation hub study to know whether Santa Fe Station could support it.

One thing I have seen in my travels across Europe is train stations that incorporate the old building into a new, modern one. Some of them kind of run together at this point, but I think it is Edinburgh were the old building is completely inside the new, soaring train station. Perhaps that is an option with the Santa Fe. The great thing about Santa Fe Station is its location. We need to keep the following in mind: (1) needs for the next 1-2 decades, (2) needs to be centrally located, (3) needs to have growth options, (4) needs to be not overly expensive.

If the hub study says the Santa Fe is the most ideal, I would not be surprised. Some of the infrastructure is already in place. It is centrally located in the downtown area. It has room for expansion in the short term (MAPS3 and Project 180 money). We can plan for the Cox Center site like we may need the east 1/2 or 1/3 of it for future transit tying into the Santa Fe in 20 years or so. We shouldn't need expansion across the current EK Gaylord for transit until well after the new convention center is built and plans for the Cox Center demolition/re-use/etc. are further along.

We'll know more after the hub study is complete.

[Kerry]

Brian - I am not proposing something the same size as victoria station. They have 19 sets of tracks but you do need space for retail, security, customer service, information, airport check-in, rail operations offices, command and control center, transit police, possible hotel, food service, bathrooms, medical, and on and on.

This isn't a stop on a line, it is the hub. Not everyone coming to the downtown station will be getting off downtown. They will transfer between trains, transfer to street car, and go to the airport. They will arrive and leave by foot, taxi, and drop-off/pick-up. You also have to enclose the passenger platforms. No one is going to wait in snow to transfer between trains. You have to account for all of this.

[ljbab728]

Brian - I am not proposing something the same size as victoria station. They have 19 sets of tracks but you do need space for retail, security, customer service, information, airport check-in, rail operations offices, command and control center, transit police, possible hotel, food service, bathrooms, medical, and on and on.

Airport check-in would be a very low priority in OKC for a downtown station. The usage for many years would be minimal and the airlines would not go to the expense of staffing a location there. I know this is very popular in Europe but for very good reasons there.

[Kerry]

Airport check-in would be a very low priority in OKC for a downtown station. The usage for many years would be minimal and the airlines would not go to the expense of staffing a location there. I know this is very popular in Europe but for very good reasons there.

I think you are greatly mistaken. Airport kiosk check-in is very popular and some people can even do it on their cell phone (Delta in Atlanta for example). If this was available off-airport I am sure business people and downtown visitors would love it. Combine it with the opportunity to check baggage and conventions alone would keep it busy for a lot of the time.

[Urban Pioneer]

The idea of putting a transit hub in the yet to be built convention center should not be overlooked. In Boston, the North Station MBTA station is integrated into the Fleet Center (or whatever it is called now), providing a gateway for subway and commuter rail. Now, the primary AMTRAK station and the other half of the commuter rail is still at South Station, but the model works nontheless.

This is a very good point. We have $285 million planned for the convention center and integration with if it is near the existing track righ-of-way is also due specific study and analysis.

The cotton seed mill is directly adjacent to that location and the proposed western location could employ a moving sidewalk and escalators to cross Shields.

[ljbab728]

I think you are greatly mistaken. Airport kiosk check-in is very popular and some people can even do it on their cell phone (Delta in Atlanta for example). If this was available off-airport I am sure business people and downtown visitors would love it. Combine it with the opportunity to check baggage and conventions alone would keep it busy for a lot of the time.

A check-in kiosk might work fine but as I said the airlines simply aren't going to the expense of staffing a location there with the financial pressures they are under. I've been in the travel business for many years and deal with these kind of things every day. There simply isn't enough demand here on a consistant basis to make it feasible. The airlines have had ticket offices in OKC before that weren't located at the airport and they have been closed. While that is different that what is suggested, the amount of business and expense doesn't justify it.

[brianinok]

A check-in kiosk might work fine but as I said the airlines simply aren't going to the expense of staffing a location there with the financial pressures they are under. I've been in the travel business for many years and deal with these kind of things every day. There simply isn't enough demand here on a consistant basis to make it feasible. The airlines have had ticket offices in OKC before that weren't located at the airport and they have been closed. While that is different that what is suggested, the amount of business and expense doesn't justify it.

I agree. Will Rogers isn't near busy enough to support something like this. Hub airports like ORD, LAX, DFW could support this kind of service.

Going back to my post a couple days ago, this is one of those things we should plan for in a future expansion but it is not needed now. The new transportation hub only needs the following services initially: (1) street car, (2) city buses, (3) Amtrak, (4) commuter rail (since that looks likely in the next decade), (5) intercity buses, (6) retail and other small services. In the future demand may cause (7) expansion of the above's tracks/slots, as well as new services like (8) HSR, (9) light rail, (10) car rentals, (11) airline check-in, and (12) a hotel. But I don't want to see this city, state, or any other government entity waste our tax dollars on a massive facility that will only be used at 15% capacity for 20 years. We should plan for these expansions like they will happen, but they simply will not be needed for quite some time with our current growth patterns.

[Urban Pioneer]

And I would again reiterate that the new bus transfer center at 4th/Hudson is not likely to be going anywhere and resolves capacity for the bus aspects generaly speaking. Edmond and Norman are even running commuter buses through there.

[HOT ROD]

really?

That's good to hear actually. I hope commuters will use the service because that will help justify commuter rail Guthrie-Downtown and Purcell-Downtown

My thoughts are, park n ride would be north of Guthrie and in Purcell, with city station stops in Guthrie downtown, Edmond downtown/central on the North route, and Norman downtown and maybe OU south campus on the south route. Crossroads Mall and 63rd would be urban park n ride/transit centers (maybe also S. Edmond).

In my opinion, we could get this up and running immediately, particularly if the existing commuter bus is working/gaining popularity. Santa Fe would be the downtown station until another one is built or it is upgraded.

[HOT ROD]

my ideas for the north half of Cox are maybe 10-20 years out.

[HOT ROD]

as for the "new" arena idea - yes, it would be at the Ford dealership; to tie into/anchor the new retail district that is proposed.

I think it should be an intimate arena to control costs. We are spending a lot of cash making Ford Center a top NBA arena and it is big enough to be completely remodeled on the inside and even expanded yet again on the outside - in the 25 years when such action will need to take place.

However, under my idea of using the North half of Cox as the new intermodal once we have our new Convention Center - we would also need a new arena for the idea to really work. This is why I think a simple, intimate $50M minor-league sports arena (think Bricktown Ballpark intimate/quality) to replace the Cox arena (in 10-20 years) would not only be plausable (in keeping the 2 arenas next to each other) but also would be cheap enough to pass.

And like I had said too, by reclaiming the Cox arena lands and letting developers do BIG CITY things with that land - it could pay for the new intimate arena as well as the demo and conversion of the north half into the intermodal.

Also - my idea of the north Cox into intermodal could also be phased as others have also alluded.

I like it because we reuse existing facilities while also rid ourselves of a white elephant (that is ONLY alive due to our sports facination/2 arenas). Plus - the north face and the 'current remodeled' meeting area gives us what is already a huge "wow" factor for a big city intermodal transit center. We'd only need to build out the transit facilities - which should be minimal cost once the arena is removed.

[Kerry]

Airport check-in. I am not sure what staffing requirement you guys are talking about. Not every airline would need their own baggage service. A single person could take baggage for every airline, and that is assuming checked baggage would even be available. If given the choice of checking into my flight while waiting for a train or doing it at the airport I would pick doing it at the train station every time.

All you need is a couple of kiosks with paper in it, some video monitors showing WRWA flight status, and some velvet ropes to make a queue. If you do checked baggage then you would need a secured storage facility to put bags in while in transit – but that is easy enough to do.

[PLANSIT]

Urban - when I said the downtown station would need to be on the Cox site, I meant that it would also incorporate the existing Santa Fe station. Sure the City needs to do due diligence but some stuff is so obvious I feel it is safe to assume. Can Santa Fe handle train traffic in its current configuration? Sure it can. Can it function as a modern intermodal facility? No way. Just look at other cities around the world and see if any of them have a primary facility as small as Santa Fe. There is a reason they don't.

SLC - 1" = 100'

Google Maps

For comparison: Santa Fe - 1"=100'

Google Maps

I get your point, but even at full build-out I wouldn't conclude that we need something as big as your suggesting. SLC does wonders with their quaint facility and they actually have transit that is used. Where bus transfers would take place, I don't know. Run 'em under the rail?

However, I do like the ideas being thrown around regarding a convention center/hub facility.

[OKCSC]

Why does OKC need two arenas again?

Seems like a massive waste of cash and plenty of places have 2 teams play in the same stadium.

[ljbab728]

Airport check-in. I am not sure what staffing requirement you guys are talking about. Not every airline would need their own baggage service. A single person could take baggage for every airline, and that is assuming checked baggage would even be available. If given the choice of checking into my flight while waiting for a train or doing it at the airport I would pick doing it at the train station every time.

All you need is a couple of kiosks with paper in it, some video monitors showing WRWA flight status, and some velvet ropes to make a queue. If you do checked baggage then you would need a secured storage facility to put bags in while in transit – but that is easy enough to do.

I'm not saying this is a terrible idea and that it wouldn't be used. There just isn't enough demand to justify it. You can check in for your flight from any computer, not just a kiosk. Someone would have to bear the expense of having someone to check baggage and that baggage also has to be transported to the airport by some means. It doesn't get there by itself. That requires more staff and expense. And I promise you the airlines won't pay for it.

[betts]

There are a lot of security issues with offsite check-in. I remember they stopped doing it at Victoria Station after 9/11, and I don't know if they've resumed.

[ljbab728]

There are a lot of security issues with offsite check-in. I remember they stopped doing it at Victoria Station after 9/11, and I don't know if they've resumed.

Security issues are not that big a problem with offsite check-in as opposed to at the airport. It's no different than checking in at an airport kiosk. With the new government "Secure Flight" program all names are checked by computer against a government list of names of potential problem passengers. When they get to the airport if there is a problem that person is automatically flagged for more intense scrutiny. As we have seen with the recent problem with the flight to Detroit, there are holes in the system but offsite check-in isn't one of them.

[Larry OKC]

Why does OKC need two arenas again?

Seems like a massive waste of cash and plenty of places have 2 teams play in the same stadium.

That was one of the big selling points in landing the Big 12 championships etc (we had side by side arenas within easy walking distance of each other, instead of across town). Shame to give that up if you don't have to.

[Larry OKC]

...We are spending a lot of cash making Ford Center a top NBA arena and it is big enough to be completely remodeled on the inside and even expanded yet again on the outside - in the 25 years when such action will need to take place.

Do you have any links or info on that?

If you want to reply in a more appropriate thread and point me to it...in the mean time, returning to the subject of the thread....