Teacher shortage: Oklahoma schools begin academic year with more than 800 vacancies

[Pete]

BTW, a quick Google search yielded an analysis by Indeed.com that shows the average starting salary for a recent college graduate in Oklahoma is $39K:

Recent College Graduate Salary in Oklahoma City, OK | Indeed.com

[soonerguru]

^

Teacher salary is based on a 9-month year.

If they work summer school or take another job during the months off, that puts them over $40K right out of college plus benefits and almost guaranteed job security.

Get your masters, head a department and stick around (notice I didn't say anything about performance because it's pretty irrelevant) and you ratchet up pretty quickly. And, you get a pension.

That's not a bad living. You can make more doing other things but you can also do a lot worse.


Why is it when this subject comes up all anybody does is talk about the negative aspects of teaching? It only furthers my point.

Because the pay sucks. My family member has a masters degree, works 10 months, and receives UNDER $40k a year. She is fully bilingual and a certified teacher. She has taught in OKC, Edmond, and Norman and her pay has never been $40k. That must include some of the benefits, but teachers making more than $35k are uncommon.

The pay sucks, Pete. Facts are facts. Quik Trip starts its cashiers at $40k. There are people staring at pipes in Western Oklahoma making $100k. Paying teachers is not a priority in this nation -- but it's even worse in Oklahoma.

I just really don't understand why you think this should not be pointed out.

Do you think Millennials don't research what professions pay? They do, and they decide what to pursue based on pay. And who could blame them: our Legislature is defunding higher education so they have to pay a greater percentage of their tuition than you and I did when we attended OU. So, they have to take out student loans to pay for a degree (which at OU used to take 5 years to complete; not sure now) that is going to pay them crappy wages? Again, do you think they won't find out the pay if people just shut up about the pay?

I have clients in Western Oklahoma who tell me they can't find teachers. Why? Their feeder college, SWOSU, isn't enrolling enough. There simply aren't enough pursuing this career.

You know a great deal about commercial real estate, but I think you're not seeing the big picture here.

I'm sorry, but this is a passionate subject for me. Not only because I have family and friends who are pursuing this field (and many of them abandoning it, unfortunately), but because I have a child in school. She goes to one of the best schools in the state, and while she has many good teachers, she has some mediocre ones, too. It would be refreshing if the best and brightest were drawn to the teaching profession, and rewarded, because what they are doing is every bit if not more important than the work of a cop, or a firefighter, or a campaign flunky for one of our genius politicians.

One must be truly dedicated to pursue teaching in Oklahoma right now. The pay is low with a governor and legislature that will never change that. There are ridiculous mandates from the state (deriving from the legislature and state ed department) to teach to tests. They aren't even provided adequate classroom resources to teach. Meanwhile, they are saddled with crippling student loan payments for the foreseeable future.

This is endangering the economic livelihood of this state. This is a serious problem. And it's a problem that is not being addressed.

[Swake]

^

Teacher salary is based on a 9-month year.

If they work summer school or take another job during the months off, that puts them over $40K right out of college plus benefits and almost guaranteed job security.

Get your masters, head a department and stick around (notice I didn't say anything about performance because it's pretty irrelevant) and you ratchet up pretty quickly. And, you get a pension.

That's not a bad living. You can make more doing other things but you can also do a lot worse.


Why is it when this subject comes up all anybody does is talk about the negative aspects of teaching? It only furthers my point.

Basic economics 101 says cost is driven by supply vs demand. We have a shortage of teachers vs the demand for teaching positions because we don't pay enough to increase the supply to meet the demand. That means we don't pay enough. It's not complicated.

Worse than that, because of this imbalance between pay and demand we will hire ANYONE that is qualified on paper to be a teacher. And have to keep them, no matter what, because we can't replace them.

[Pete]

The average teacher pay in Oklahoma is over $44K; and that does not include benefits (other than retirement paid by the district):

Estimated average annual salary of teachers in public elementary and secondary schools, by state: Selected years, 1969-70 through 2012-13

[soonerguru]

The average teacher pay in Oklahoma is over $44K; and that does not include benefits (other than retirement paid by the district):

Estimated average annual salary of teachers in public elementary and secondary schools, by state: Selected years, 1969-70 through 2012-13

Just look at the vacancies being advertised. They do not pay this. Perhaps this includes teachers who also coach football and basketball. They get paid more. But classroom teachers are not making this.

[Pete]

Basic economics 101 says cost is driven by supply vs demand. We have a shortage of teachers vs the demand for teaching positions because we don't pay enough to increase the supply to meet the demand. That means we don't pay enough. It's not complicated.

Worse than that, because of this imbalance between pay and demand we will hire ANYONE that is qualified on paper to be a teacher. And have to keep them, no matter what, because we can't replace them.

Again, this is a nationwide problem, and not unique to Oklahoma.

Teachers in general are not paid enough -- not one is arguing that fact.


But the point remains: You can still make a good living as a teacher in Oklahoma or anywhere else.

[Pete]

BTW, I worked for six years in public schools along side teachers in Los Angeles Unified. I ran a nonprofit for at-risk teens and we actually helped to provide outreach and instruction in middle & high school classrooms. And these schools were infinitely more challenging than just about any place in Oklahoma.

So, I know a fair bit about which I speak.

[Pete]

Just look at the vacancies being advertised. They do not pay this. Perhaps this includes teachers who also coach football and basketball. They get paid more. But classroom teachers are not making this.

There are actually statewide minimums determined by education level and number of years teaching.

School districts cannot pay LESS than these amounts and most pay more:

http://ok.gov/sde/sites/ok.gov.sde/f...20Schedule.pdf

[Swake]

Again, this is a nationwide problem, and not unique to Oklahoma.

Teachers in general are not paid enough -- not one is arguing that fact.

You kinda are arguing that fact. While it is a national problem, it's worse in Oklahoma because the pay is worse.

But the point remains: You can still make a good living as a teacher in Oklahoma or anywhere else.

Your version of a good living is obviously different than most people's, because not enough people are wanting to become teachers. You can find people to do any job, you just have to pay enough. We don't currently pay teachers enough to encourage debt laden college graduates to choose to teach.

[Pete]

You kinda are arguing that fact. While it is a national problem, it's worse in Oklahoma because the pay is worse.

There is no indication it's any worse in Oklahoma then lots of places that pay more.

Virtually every state is facing the same sort of shortages.

[soonerguru]

Pete,

Please see the attached screen shots of CURRENT salaries for OKC Public Schools employees. Please note that even with a Doctorate, and eight years of experience, someone only makes $38k a year. This is from the OKCPS website and outlines the current salaries as part of the collective bargaining. I don't know what data you're citing from that study -- and perhaps we have a lot of 10 to 40 year teachers, which might skew the salary average, but I cannot imagine getting a masters or doctorate and working ten years or more just to crack $40k. By the way, OKC pays better than any of the suburban districts.



Sorry, the photo is too small. But here's the fine print:

In OKC, with a masters degree and 10 years experience, your salary is $38,575. With a Doctorate, it's $41,225

With a bachelors degree and 10 years experience, your salary is $36,675.

Imagine the pay with three, four, or five years experience? Worse than this, of course.

So it's really pretty simple. To go to OU or OSU, you're looking at roughly $65k in expenses. Let's say you have to get student loans. Would this attract you to the profession?

And here's a link to the REAL salaries, not the fluffed up ones: http://okcs.schooldesk.net/Portals/O...20-%20F711.pdf

[Laramie]

^

Teacher salary is based on a 9-month year.

If they work summer school or take another job during the months off, that puts them over $40K right out of college plus benefits and almost guaranteed job security.

Get your masters, head a department and stick around (notice I didn't say anything about performance because it's pretty irrelevant) and you ratchet up pretty quickly. And, you get a pension.

That's not a bad living. You can make more doing other things but you can also do a lot worse.


Why is it when this subject comes up all anybody does is talk about the negative aspects of teaching? It only furthers my point.

You're right Pete, there are good benefits in the public school teaching profession.

Oklahoma City Public School District I-89 contract allows full time teachers the option to have their pay distributed over a 9-month or 12-month period. It's probably the same with most districts in the OKC area. Department heads, sponsors and coaches receive a stipend distributed over the selected period. This allows teachers to take summer school classes to work toward an advanced degree. Teachers on the 12-month pay distribution can take on a summer job to make additional money during that interim period.

Teachers selected to teach summer school will receive an additional warrant if they are on the 12-month pay distribution. The money to finance summer school comes from the Directors (Elementary, Middle, High School) separate account for selected summer school sites. Teachers have great benefits in this profession.

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[Pete]

Actually OKCPS pays less than most suburban schools:

http://www.putnamcityschools.org/Por...Comparison.pdf


And a teacher with a doctorate and eight years experience earns $43K for a 10-month year at Putnam City Schools, plus year-round benefits:

http://www.putnamcityschools.org/Por...02013-2014.pdf

[soonerguru]

There is no indication it's any worse in Oklahoma then lots of places that pay more.

Virtually every state is facing the same sort of shortages.

Well you're overlooking the fact that many teachers get their education in Oklahoma and leave to Texas, where they are in fact paid more with only a moderately higher cost of living.

[Pete]

In no way am I saying that teachers in general don't deserve to be paid more.

But I am saying that teaching is still a good career for many, in Oklahoma and most other places.

And when do you ever hear anybody say that?

[Pete]

Well you're overlooking the fact that many teachers get their education in Oklahoma and leave to Texas, where they are in fact paid more with only a moderately higher cost of living.

On average, Texas pays $4K a year more than Oklahoma. And they have big shortages too.

Also, lots of people leave Oklahoma for jobs in Texas; has been happening for decades and in all fields, not just education.

[Laramie]

Most districts in Texas have 12 pay periods (one each month). OCPS pay period are usually on the 1st and the 15th. Medical benefits selected depends on the plan with districts paying 50% to 80% of the plan.

Oklahoma City area districts as a whole have good competitive benefits. Salary base is higher in many of the surrounding states; however the cost of living, mobility and benefits vary within each state and district. I have a number of friends who left Oklahoma for California, Illinois, Texas and Arizona; some of them are dying to get back to Oklahoma.

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[Pete]

Until I started working in schools and really talking to teachers and researching this whole matter, I just assumed -- as do most Americans -- that we pay our teachers slave wages, making it impossible for anyone to earn a decent living. But my personal experiences (I know tons of teachers) and research did not support this ostensibly unassailable truth.

Here is a detailed, dispassionate article on teacher's salaries from a contributor to Forbes, citing data from the Department of Labor (BLS). I urge people to read it with an open mind... And imagine that teaching as a career was presented in this way, rather in the manner it has been portrayed by virtually everyone you know in the educational field:

The Teacher Salary Myth -- Are Teachers Underpaid? - Forbes

[PennyQuilts]

I taught for several years and it was never about money in conversations with my peers. We liked the job, felt appreciated, and liked the 9 month schedule that worked well with our families. None of us drove to work while doing the math in our head about how much money we were making an hour. We loved our pensions but we mostly loved our job.

In a few years, I'll have a nice spot of money coming in every month. That's huge and you can't factor in the salary without considering what the pension is worth.

I didn't leave teaching to make money, rather, I just wanted another kind of challenge. It never was about money.

But people are right - the job has changed and it is not nearly as rewarding as it once was. YOU COULD NOT PAY ME ENOUGH to put up with some of the clueless, narcissistic parents with their out of control children, these days that are in the public schools. Private schools are the way to go - for them, it isn't about money. It is about feeling like what you are doing matters.

[Pete]

Appreciate that perspective, Penny.

But remember, young people coming into the teaching profession at this point (or relatively recently) don't compare to how things used to be with parents and kids, and that no doubt makes it easier for them to accept the current realities.

Almost all my friends in OKC have put their kids through various public school systems (Edmond, PC, Bethany, OKC, Moore), all with much better teachers than I ever had, and I went to the PC schools during the height of their glory years.

[soonerguru]

On average, Texas pays $4K a year more than Oklahoma. And they have big shortages too.

Also, lots of people leave Oklahoma for jobs in Texas; has been happening for decades and in all fields, not just education.

As my factual information has shown, the 'average' salary you cite is not an accurate picture of the salaries paid in Oklahoma. You also continue to ignore the realities of the cost of higher education in Oklahoma.

Incoming students today have to bear a greater percentage of the cost of their education than any generation previous. So they have to rack up massive student loan debt. And then they can look forward to low wages in our schools for at least a decade or more.

You've made your point, but it's not going to solve the problem. The problem is a teacher shortage. The reason is there aren't enough people pursuing the career. The solution is probably a combination of things, but more rewarding pay is probably one of them. I don't think anyone goes into teaching looking to get rich.

[Pete]

My info was factual as well and took into account the whole state, not one school district that was demonstrated to pay less than most others.

[soonerguru]

My info was factual as well and took into account the whole state, not one school district that was demonstrated to pay less than most others.

OKC is one of the highest paying districts in Oklahoma. It pays more than Norman, Edmond, Moore, or Yukon. Your link was a national study that did not break down classroom salaries. It probably includes lifetime teachers as well as coaches and others who receive additional pay.

The information I provided was actual pay, today, for teachers. Not something from some kind of study.

[Pete]

^

You missed the following link that compares salaries across the various OKC-area school districts:

http://www.putnamcityschools.org/Por...Comparison.pdf

[soonerguru]

^

You missed the following link that compares salaries across the various OKC-area school districts:

http://www.putnamcityschools.org/Por...Comparison.pdf

This is "total compensation," and the discussion is teacher salaries.

I find this whole thing weird and somewhat surprising, though, Pete. It seems like your argument is: "Teachers are paid better than people think, but they always bitch about their pay, so young people hear that and don't want to be teachers, and if they didn't have unions to also bitch about their pay, we would have more young people wanting to be teachers."

Very strange argument that fails to address the underlying problem.