Costco Email Response Re: Oklahoma City

[jbrown84]

The problem with simply allowing wine in grocery stores is that it kills the local liquor stores. If they are going to change these laws, they need to really change them. They need to let liquor stores sell whatever they want at whatever temperature they want and let them have more than one location if they want. We really just need to open the market on every level and lift all the archaic restrictions on all the vendors. There really is no reason for government to pick and choose what kind of retailers are going to sell us what kind of legal goods.

Yeah I agree they would need to change all these laws, but my real question was vague I guess. Is there new movement in the legislature to actually do this?

[soonerguru]

BDP,

The effects are not so cut and dried. You can find successful liquor stores in all of the states in which you can buy wine in grocery stores. Look no further than Tejas, for example.

Liquor stores would merely have to be more specialized in their product offerings than grocers. This is inherently doable for the enterprising.

[Midtowner]

BDP,

The effects are not so cut and dried. You can find successful liquor stores in all of the states in which you can buy wine in grocery stores. Look no further than Tejas, for example.

Liquor stores would merely have to be more specialized in their product offerings than grocers. This is inherently doable for the enterprising.

I would imagine, however, that their profit margins would suffer, and a lot of the smaller stores would just go away. Byron's isn't going anywhere, but your local corner store might be really threatened here.

I think a great comprimise would be to offer Oklahoma Wine inside Oklahoma Grocery stores. At least this way, we could support small businesses (and farmers) in Oklahoma as opposed to supporting national chains versus the little guy.

[soonerguru]

Midtowner,

Such a compromise would be a step forward, but it wouldn't achieve the desired result: we would be no closer in luring a Whole Foods or a Costco-type retailer.

I fear that in the absence of this change, we are not going to see the improvements we all hope for in this area.

[BDP]

You can find successful liquor stores in all of the states in which you can buy wine in grocery stores. Look no further than Tejas, for example.

Actually, that was my point. You can have succussful liquor stores and still sell liquor in grocery stores. But, they have to have the sam opportunities to be competitive. If groceries stores are allowed to compete with the liquor stores, but the liquor stores are limited in their capacity to compete by not being allowed to sell certain items, then they will suffer. I am all for liquor and wine in grocery stores and I think these smaller stores can survive as well, but they have to be allowed to compete in the same capacity as other retail establishments who may be allowed to sell liquor.

That's why I said they should be able to sell whatever they want, however they want, and whenever they want(or at least at the same times as any store selling liquor) and be able to have more than one storefront or even franchise. I think the liquor stores would have a valid complaint if chains (which they can't be) were allowed to sell liquor (which is all they are allowed to sell) along with any other consumer goods (which they can't sell). If restrictions are lifted on grocery stores, restrictions should also be lifted on liquor stores, imo. Open the market.

[Midtowner]

Midtowner,

Such a compromise would be a step forward, but it wouldn't achieve the desired result: we would be no closer in luring a Whole Foods or a Costco-type retailer.

I fear that in the absence of this change, we are not going to see the improvements we all hope for in this area.

I don't think our state government works by making bold moves. Legislators do their damndest to stay on the good side of lobbyists. The liquor store lobby is real, the Oklahoma wine lobby is there. If they can protect most of the liquor store monopoly while helping to expand local industry, I think we can be a baby-step in the right direction.

Change is not made in sweeping reforms. It's made in a series of (seemingly) tiny baby steps. We'll get there, but first things first.

[Omaha Cowboy]

This is the case all over the country apparently. Sam's and Costco are competing for the same customers. What Costco is telling OKC is that they don't even want to try and compete.

I guess the $64,000 question is finding out, specifically, what the numbers are telling them..Which is disuading Costco from entering the Oklahoma City market..

The Whole Foods Market, which has been open in Omaha for about 1 year, has been a big hit..I'd find it hard to believe it's opening a store in Oklahoma City would be anything less than a smashing success..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Midtowner]

My understanding is that they're not 'disuaded.' It's just that they can only expand their operations (think supply chain) at a given rate. That being the case, they choose to expand in markets first where they think they'll enjoy the most success saving markets where they'll have to deal with stiff competition for later.

I imagine OKC is on the list of places Costco wants to expand to. I imagine we're just not near the top of that list.

[Shake2005]

I have heard that Whole Foods has issues with the distance from distribution centers

[y_h]

I have heard that Whole Foods has issues with the distance from distribution centers

That sounds a bit odd. We have a Whole Foods in St. Louis -- just one single location -- and I can't imagine that there's a distribution center any closer to us than OKC would be from Whole Foods' HQ in Texas.

Whole Foods does have wine and beer in their store here, however I don't believe it represents enough of a share of inventory to make the OK liquor laws a dealbreaking factor in locating stores there. Trader Joe's might be another story. We've got four so far and their wine department certainly does have a significant enough presence that they might not be interested in setting up shop under the present liquor laws. I think either Whole Foods or TJ's would do quite well in the OKC marketplace although I'd hate it if their arrival came at the expense of one of my personal favorites - Crescent Market.

[soonerguru]

Change is not made in sweeping reforms. It's made in a series of (seemingly) tiny baby steps. We'll get there, but first things first.

For that you are indeed correct. However, my point is: such incremental steps will not give us the desired results, a Costco or Whole Foods type retailer.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I imagine OKC is on the list of places Costco wants to expand to. I imagine we're just not near the top of that list.

But yet Omaha seemingly is..I just don't see much of a difference in the two market demographics..I have to belive there is something else in play here..

What it is..I have no idea..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[HOT ROD]

You know, Costco isnt really that big of deal. Im not sure why so many are so concerned about it. Yes, it would be great to get some competition into OKC but there are other Sam's competitors - like BJ's and many other east coast staples.

What is the big deal about Costco? If they dont wanna touch OKC for the fear of Walmart - good riddence!

We need to make sure SONIC does not enter Seattle for the same reasons they gave us. (Spokane just got the first Sonic in Washington State).

[soonerguru]

If they dont wanna touch OKC for the fear of Walmart - good riddence!

For the love of God, this is NOT why they are not here. It's the freakin' liquor laws! GEEZ!

[HOT ROD]

For the love of God, this is NOT why they are not here. It's the freakin' liquor laws! GEEZ!

that is what I said in post 38.

But in all honesty, the liquor in COSTCO is not that wonderful or anything. It's the same stuff you can get anywhere.

While it may be true that the underlying reason they aren't here is because of the laws, I still say good riddence to them; they're not all that anyways (besides the gas).

[Omaha Cowboy]

If it's liquor laws that's keeping major players like Costco and Whole Foods Market from entering the Oklahoma City market..

That is cause for developmental concern..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[mranderson]

I will grant the liquor laws are obsolete, however, what proof do you have to back your claim of the laws being the reason for denial into this market?

[HOT ROD]

i dont have any proof, it just seems funny that they would say demographics is the reason. what the heck are they looking for??? OKC has over 2900 people per square mile in its urbanized area, a metro area of 1.3M, and a market concatchment that has over 5M.

I would think these "chains" would be steadily knocking on the door such that we'd be in the position to pick and chose who we wanted.

I think the NBA will turn things around for OKC from this prospective - in that no one thought the city could pull of what we are doing with the Hornets.

But it just amazes me to keep hearing demographics as an excuse when these same companies have locations in far less desireable cities than OKC.

[Swake2]

I will grant the liquor laws are obsolete, however, what proof do you have to back your claim of the laws being the reason for denial into this market?

They aren't here?

[bluedogok]

We just had a second Costco open up in June here in South Austin, a mile away from a Sams. The one in North Austin has been there ever since I moved here from OKC 3.5 years ago. We are members at both, since both have some basic items that we get it just depends on those other items that are not shared as to which one we go to or sometimes it just comes down to which one we are closer to.

As to liquor laws, Texas has its shre of screwy laws also, just look at Dallas and their wet/dry areas by voting distict. The wet line on Greenville just north of Royal Lane and the town of Buckingham as the "wet" area between Dallas and Richardson is just ridiculous. That is not a problem here as Travis County is wet.

As far as grocery store wine departments go, only Whole Foods and HEB-Central Market have wine departments on par with all but the whole in the wall liquor stores. There are many that specialize in wine and especially stocking Texas vineyards, most have the space and expertise that you just can't find at most grocery stores. The locals can survive and thrive if they try to do something more than just exist, which is what it seems like most of the ones there just want to do. There are already ones that do more like Beau's at May & Grand.

[ETL]

Aren’t they the ones owned by the Venezuelan government and want to destroy the US?

[Midtowner]

ETL: Who is "they"? Bluedogok refers to several companies in his post, so your question is very unclear.

[writerranger]

I think he/she is confusing Costco with Citgo.

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[mranderson]

They aren't here?

There could be hundreds of reasons for a company not to be in a market. Just because "they are not here" is not proof. Therefore, it is clear you have no proof.

[Midtowner]

Sure would be nice to get rid of those liquor laws though