Skirvin Expansion / Convention Center Hotel (dead)

[UnFrSaKn]

The Magnolia in Dallas is a little similar to Skirvin, but much taller.

[BDK]

I like the idea, I just think the expansion needs to be taller and have close to 600 rooms, instead of the 400 they're proposing. Why not make a hotel tower, with 30+ floors?

I like this idea, that way that could attach it through the ballroom.

Spartan, I'm surprised you don't like this idea, as you seem to be the standard bearer for density on this site. Though I understand your concerns.

[maestro6]

Initial reaction--I really like this idea. Linking to Skirvin sounds great. Maybe this would eventually prompt some mid- or high-rise hotel construction in Bricktown to supplement the expanded Skirvin.

[G.Walker]

This is a bad idea. The numbers don't work. The reason the numbers fall so short is that they're making some argument that OKC can't support more hotel rooms. The truth of the matter is that OKC has a desperate need for more downtown hotel rooms, and adding only 400 as opposed to 800 more is not a preferable alternative. I don't know how anybody could think that is a preferable alternative. The Skirvin is already booked solid. And other reasons.

I like how J. Pitman nailed it when he suggested this a few weeks ago in another thread. It's an intriguing idea, but it's just an idea. I'd rather see a new hotel as a preference, and that would seem to be a much more feasible idea with making the
numbers work, as well. The only problem is where to put it. We have soooooo much open land in this city and it's so unfortunate that we can't figure out which parcel of open land we can use for a convention center hotel. It would be nice to get some kind of "new development" out of this as well. What kind of new development will be spurred by just utilizing an existing hotel?

***I do really like some of these ideas, however. IF the Cox Center site is eventually demolished and turned into a new mixed-use development, then it could be a good idea to tear down the Santa Fe Garage and create some new space for downtown transit hub activities adjacent to the Skirvin. That could be a truly amazing location for that because of how it lines up dead-center with Park Avenue, the heart of downtown. So I think this proposal is a non-starter for a new convention hotel, but it might have merit going forward with other purposes.

Take or leave the 400-room expansion, that's not going to make as much of a
difference, because it is likely not going to be the convention hotel anyway just because of how unfeasible a solution this would be. But it does have you thinking that if Marcus is already thinking about expansion, then perhaps they might do it anyway just as some off-spin development we will get because of M3, particularly the convention center.

Spartan, the Skirvin Partners already made it evident that they would fund 22 story, 425 room tower, saving the city $60M, so why couldn't the city make a joint venture with them and spend a portion of that $60M, to add another 300 rooms their proposal?

[Architect2010]

It says in the article that a previously speculated 800 room Convention Hotel would cause a plummet in our current Downtown Hotel room occupancy. I think they know what they're talking about and I agree that maybe we should scale down the Convention Hotel. There's a reason that the Sheraton is the largest hotel we have downtown. If we could support an added supply of 800 rooms under one hotel roof then don't you think it would have already been built? Our hotels downtown are modestly sized to be honest. Most having somewhere in the 200-room area. A few below and above that as well. It's a huge risk in the City's and Downtown eyes I think to add such a large quantity of rooms onto the Downtown market. A hotel this large would represent, what? Almost half of our current hotel room count now? I think that's how the city views it.

This concept is a homerun: demolish one of the ugliest barriers downtown, the Santa Fe Garage; add news parking garages in lieu of the SG; adds density to Main Street, Bricktown, the CBD, and Deep Deuce; sits in a perfect position that makes it incredibly easy to access Bricktown, the CBD, Deep Deuce, and Automobile Alley is now just up the street; is the best location in terms of distance from existing hotel stock; saves the city some money; the new hotel tower would fill in our CBD and would be across the street from the new Sandridge Commons; the configurement allows for the Ford Site and eventually the Cox site to both be redeveloped into retail/residential/office or whatever; and infills one of the biggest holes in our Downtown area. I'm probably missing some positive points as well.

This is a great proposal. One I bet the city is going to have a really hard time turning down. Even if an equally impressive plan was tossed by the other sites, they just can't compare to the infill and revitilization of this plan. Downtown Oklahoma City is not complete yet, so why build on the edges of the core when we can be smart and proactively fill in what is not complete and strengthen the CBD, Deep Deuce, and Bricktown and the connections between three districts! I don't think anyone should count this one out, just like we shouldn't count out the possibility of the other sites being just as impressive as this proposal.

But don't accept my opinion as a legitimate view on this forum. (Which is just that, an opinion.) Because I'm a "18-19 year old forumer and I", apparently, "haven't lived long enough to see how things work." Which is funny because I know more about this city than the average citizen 4 times my age.

[BoulderSooner]

this is a great idea/proposal it is what need to happen

[Spartan]

I like this idea, that way that could attach it through the ballroom.

Spartan, I'm surprised you don't like this idea, as you seem to be the standard bearer for density on this site. Though I understand your concerns.

Haha, thanks, I appreciate that honor. I'm actually not just a robot who's always for one thing over another, I think the convention center does need to be a mostly economic development mission. I have seen the numbers and heard the arguments and I'm convinced that OKC can not make the new convention center work out as well without at least 700-800 new rooms, attached. I just think if we spend $280M it should work as well as intended..

Even though I saw this Skirvin proposal coming, I am still not sure exactly what they want to do and more importantly, what they're asking for. Could this exist along with a major convention hotel, perhaps even a smaller convention hotel? Then that would be an excellent idea. This has opened up the door to the possibility that the convention hotel for a North Bricktown site not necessarily be connected, and I think there are many potential locations where you could stick an 800-room hotel adjacent to that site. Perhaps, the land that will be used for the parking lot behind Aloft. Or perhaps across the Walnut Street bridge.

[Spartan]

It says in the article that a previously speculated 800 room Convention Hotel would cause a plummet in our current Downtown Hotel room occupancy. I think they know what they're talking about and I agree that maybe we should scale down the Convention Hotel. There's a reason that the Sheraton is the largest hotel we have downtown. If we could support an added supply of 800 rooms under one hotel roof then don't you think it would have already been built?

2010, I didn't know you thought in this way. If OKC could support downtown retail, don't you think it would have already been built? If OKC could support a vibrant, mixed-use downtown, don't you think it would have already been built? I absolutely cringed when I read that...

I don't think that you understand the concept of the convention center hotel. It is not a hotel that is generally open to public booking. Every night, generally 90% of its rooms are attached to the convention center. It exists only for the purpose of the convention center and it creates its own business. OKC does not have anything like this because OKC can not even currently compete for the kinds of conventions that require this many rooms in one building. The only down-side to the convention center hotel is that it requires a subsidy in the beginning, which if often paid back later, or so we hope (there always has to be skepticism at this point when that promise is made in Oklahoma).

Our hotels downtown are modestly sized to be honest. Most having somewhere in the 200-room area.

This is why downtown is severely underserved by hotels.

This concept is a homerun: demolish one of the ugliest barriers downtown, the Santa Fe Garage; add news parking garages in lieu of the SG;

Which would still represent a net loss of structured parking spaces downtown, although I agree wholeheartedly that the Santa Fe Garage either needs to go or needs some drastic changes.

adds density to Main Street, Bricktown,

We're talking about this as being contingent on the selection of a convention center site that could just as well (and more reasonably) happen without the Skirvin.

the new hotel tower would fill in our CBD and would be across the street from the new Sandridge Commons;

Well hot damn!

I'm probably missing some positive points as well.

Nope, I think you got 'em all. :-)

This is a great proposal. One I bet the city is going to have a really hard time turning down. Even if an equally impressive plan was tossed by the other sites, they just can't compare to the infill and revitilization of this plan.

What is it revitalizing? The Skirvin? It was already renovated.

Downtown Oklahoma City is not complete yet, so why build on the edges of the core when we can be smart and proactively fill in what is not complete and strengthen the CBD, Deep Deuce, and Bricktown and the connections between three districts!

True. I think you can do that without the Skirvin getting to be the sole biggest hotel downtown, though. But I also agree that it's an intriguing proposal that shouldn't be counted out necessarily, if they can come up with how they're going to make the numbers work--not involving rhetoric about why their numbers are right and the city's are wrong, blah blah..

But don't accept my opinion as a legitimate view on this forum. (Which is just that, an opinion.) Because I'm a "18-19 year old forumer and I", apparently, "haven't lived long enough to see how things work." Which is funny because I know more about this city than the average citizen 4 times my age.

Hear hear.

[ZYX2]

But don't accept my opinion as a legitimate view on this forum. (Which is just that, an opinion.) Because I'm a "18-19 year old forumer and I", apparently, "haven't lived long enough to see how things work." Which is funny because I know more about this city than the average citizen 4 times my age.

Isn't that annoying? Just because we're not 67 doesn't mean we don't know anything.


I really like this proposal. I think it does a great job at creating more density, and as others have said, improving a district that already exists. I do see where Spartan is coming from though. If we want a true convention hotel then we may need to build a seperate one. If not that, then if the city was willing to chip in some of their 60 million they said they would use, and double the amount of rooms, the new tower could be 80-90% dedicated to the convention center while still technically be part of the Skirvin. I think it could work.

[BG918]

So the Main St site, will they have to tear down the existing buildings along the north side of Main? If so it would be nice if they keep some of the facades and incorporate them into the convention center design.

Is there really enough space at that site for the convention center program? When we were doing our planning for the C2S site we were looking at close to 1 million SF to compete with other large Tier 2 cities nationally. Even at 2 stories that took up the entire space from the Blvd. to SW 4 between Santa Fe and Robinson, a much larger area than the Main St site.

[SkyWestOKC]

Nick, I am highly surprised you don't like this proposal. Are you more in favor of the Ford site? What benefits would the Coca Cola Events Center location add?

This plan is not perfect, but I think it is the best idea in utilizing what we have already built.

Another great feature of this is it is already in a hidden part of downtown, and one side of it backs up against the railroad tracks. All of your concerns that you had for it being located right next to the new Central Park have been corrected with this proposal, yet you still don't like it? The Skirvin will have a total of 650 rooms after this expansion, which would definitely make it a good convention hotel. And if that is not enough, there are plenty of other large nearby hotels, and room for the market to add a few more (property-wise) nearby. I trust that the Skirvin people have a better understanding of the local hotel market than any of us armchair developers.

[Kerry]

I have sensory overload right now. This is by far the best proposal that we have seen so far.

I think Spartan is opposed to the Bricktown parking lot location becasue the old building on the north side of Main Street would be taken down as part of the projecy. Spartan strickes me as preservation first, density second type person. I on the other hand am density first, everything else is a distant second. I love this idea.

As for people saying they want a 5 star hotel - the Skirvin is something like the 20th best hotel in Hilton family. It doesn't get much better than that.

[Kokopelli]

What if you just did some tweaking of this new proposal: Put a new convention center hotel in the Santa Fe Garage location and add the new parking garage in the location a the new Skrivin towers?

[OKC74]

I'm surprised some don't like this proposal. There have been SO many comments on the Devon Tower threat about the desire to have more high rises downtown...and this would be one...22 stories isn't too shabby!

[jbrown84]

Love love love love love. How can you not love this proposal?

-we lose the fugly Santa Fe garage, which is not only unattractive but a huge barrier and urbanist's nightmare
-we replace a bank branch and surface parking with a new tower with 425 hotel rooms
-we replace surface parking in Bricktown with a garage
-we gain office space for the CVB and Chamber in the most logical place, right next to the convention center, and in the process never have to worry about that stupid football building they were going to build a couple blocks north
-we put the convention center in the most logical place being considered (IMO) and lose a massive amount of surface parking in the process
-we get a really fabulous hotel as our convention hotel, which only makes us even more attractive for conventions.

[workman45]

[B]I LIKE!!!![B]

It improves density, adds a net plus for parking, saves the city money on the hotel allowing improvments to the CC and positions the CC in it's best location.

It's going to take some serious backing, supporting a package, to beat this proposal.

[Spartan]

Oh and by the way, the Skirvin is haunted! lol...

I guess this is going to be a fairly popular proposal. By the way, if this even works as an acceptable convention hotel, the general public can say goodbye to getting many opportunities to spend the night in this grand hotel. That would be a loss, in my opinion.

[Dustin]

That parking garage is scary huge.

[MIKELS129]

Larry, please note this part of the article:

"Weeman suggests the project could begin with construction of a new parking garage along the south side of Main Street just east of the BNSF Railway viaduct. The 800- to 1,260-space garage would incorporate the century-old Sherman Iron Works Building and be situated across the street from the proposed convention center site."

What does " incorporate the century-old Sherman Iron Works Building" mean???
Demolish or integrate into the facade and/or the parking building?

[Pete]

The Sante Fe garage is 1,500 spaces, so reduce that by 2/3rds and you get 500. Add back 800 to 1,260 and we'll have no fewer spaces.

One rub is the Renaissance Hotel is currently connected to the SF garage by skywalk, so they might not like this. On the other hand, this location will do wonders for their business.

And I really do think this may finally provide the demand needed to convert First National to a hotel -- or at least the tower portion.

[Patrick]

Oh and by the way, the Skirvin is haunted! lol...

I guess this is going to be a fairly popular proposal. By the way, if this even works as an acceptable convention hotel, the general public can say goodbye to getting many opportunities to spend the night in this grand hotel. That would be a loss, in my opinion.

Not true.

[David Pollard]

I get a real warm feeling about this proposal. The placement as well as the density is amazing. Furthermore, as much of a fan as I am of preservationism, I actually think that the convention hotel (read Skriving Extension) would be best as a very modern high-rise. It could still respect the design of the original Skirvin yet at a greater height. This whole concept will clearly stimulate a great deal of development in the surrounding area. Touché!

[Popsy]

Oh and by the way, the Skirvin is haunted! lol...

I guess this is going to be a fairly popular proposal. By the way, if this even works as an acceptable convention hotel, the general public can say goodbye to getting many opportunities to spend the night in this grand hotel. That would be a loss, in my opinion.

Why would you think the general public would be denied opportunities. I would think there would be more opportunities as there will not be a convention every week and with 400 plus extra rooms there will probably be some heavy discounting to rent those rooms when that happens.

[OKCRT]

I always thought that a CC hotel would serve the guests of the CC.? If this proposal is accepted then the Skirvin Hotel will serve only convention goers correct? I am not so sure this is a good idea.

[okcboy]

This site is like sitting in the back in the corner and in the dark at a restaurant. Eliminating competition, city building them another tower, making them the headquarters
hotel..you can tell this proposal came from the Skirvin people. This site provides no future growth, development, and hinders future high speed rail alignments. Also not to sure the BNSF would allow to have a pedestrian walkway over the track. Many problems with this site.