Access Oklahoma Turnpike Projects

[bombermwc]

It really is more complicated than that, but i get what you're saying.

If you're retired, you've built a home for decades, with certain ideas in mind for what that retirement looks like. A lot of these homes are on larger plots of land that they may have manicured and homes they they have worked on for years. It's mentally difficult and even physically so for that group.

Delaying makes that even more difficult for them and wastes that money that they need fore retirement. But i dont think we can honestly answer what we would do unless we're in the situation.

For me, i'm excited to see these happen to offload that traffic (the interchange changes have zero impact on how many people go that way so i dont buy that argument about the numbers game). Diverting away from the 35/40 junctions is a good thing.

[oktxatty]

If someone knocked on your door and told you they were taking ownership of your land/property you've owned for years, you would likely fight it until the end as well.

And end up losing. You live in the land of eminent domain.

[jn1780]

Another victory for OTA. I think this is a good indication on how the OK Supreme Court will rule in future cases.

https://kfor.com/news/local/ok-supre...act-challenge/

[jn1780]

And end up losing. You live in the land of eminent domain.

Also could be worse, a guy named Andrew Jackson could have kick you off your land under poor terms and have the army March you halfway across the country. No one likes having their property taken, but at least its your democratic tribe doing the taking and not another tribe.

Edit sorry Jackson.

[jedicurt]

Another victory for OTA. I think this is a good indication on how the OK Supreme Court will rule in future cases.

https://kfor.com/news/local/ok-supre...act-challenge/

yep. this is two rulings in their favor. i think we see the writing on the wall now.

[shavethewhales]

I haven't looked into their actual cases enough to know how solid they are, but obviously the two that failed were pretty sparse. Seems like they threw a bunch of hay to slow things down in general. They are still stuck until they are allowed to proceed with issuing bonds. Anyone know how solid the final case is to stop them? It does seem that the supreme court is taking a much more lenient line with OTA than the lower courts.

As much as some like the idea of a new, less congested road between Norman and OKC, it's all fun and games until it's your cherished property that is being bulldozed against your will. Eminent domain sucks. There aren't a ton of dream homes in this area, but definitely some properties that people have invested time and emotion into. The first phase of the Kickapoo turnpike had some drama over some of the properties taken already. I guess in the end, nothing around here is built to last anyway...

[BoulderSooner]

. Eminent domain sucks...

well sure ... but it is legal .. the public meeting ruling was pretty simple and basic ...

[Plutonic Panda]

well sure ... but it is legal .. the public meeting ruling was pretty simple and basic ...

And anyone that is against it should go live in a cave since it’s been used for so many highway, electrical, and water infrastructure and so on.

[jn1780]

The best way to avoid Eminent Domain is to move to a densely populated neighborhood. Even if you avoid it, your kid or grand kids are going to sell your dream home to a developer the moment they have a chance.

[bombermwc]

The best way to avoid Eminent Domain is to move to a densely populated neighborhood. Even if you avoid it, your kid or grand kids are going to sell your dream home to a developer the moment they have a chance.

I had to laugh a bit at that. I'm thinking about so many of the former farmer plots that have turned into sub divisions as families stop doing the work their grandpappy did and sell. My own home is one of those that benefitted from one of those sells. The land it was built on, was Moore farmland just 10 years ago in the middle of nothing. Now, there are several hundred homes here. But we're at least close enough (but far enough) from 2 interstates, to not worry about eminent domain.

ED has been used to do a lot of bad in the city, but it's also been used to do a lot of good. It was heavily used in MWC for the 29th st development. The city "lost" the eventual case on that, but did they really lose? I mean they paid the plaintiff more money, but I'm pretty sure the city came out a million times ahead on the development with tax income. It's done major damage in downtown with Pei's Plan. It destroyed the neighborhoods where 235 went in, but it created a much needed corridor. It's never a cut and dry situation. It always has its winners and losers. I would say that, at least in what I have seen in my lifetime, it has been used to do more good than bad because most of the groups exercising it these days, have learned from past mistakes on how it can do major harm.

[scottk]

I had to laugh a bit at that. I'm thinking about so many of the former farmer plots that have turned into sub divisions as families stop doing the work their grandpappy did and sell. My own home is one of those that benefitted from one of those sells. The land it was built on, was Moore farmland just 10 years ago in the middle of nothing. Now, there are several hundred homes here. But we're at least close enough (but far enough) from 2 interstates, to not worry about eminent domain.

ED has been used to do a lot of bad in the city, but it's also been used to do a lot of good. It was heavily used in MWC for the 29th st development. The city "lost" the eventual case on that, but did they really lose? I mean they paid the plaintiff more money, but I'm pretty sure the city came out a million times ahead on the development with tax income. It's done major damage in downtown with Pei's Plan. It destroyed the neighborhoods where 235 went in, but it created a much needed corridor. It's never a cut and dry situation. It always has its winners and losers. I would say that, at least in what I have seen in my lifetime, it has been used to do more good than bad because most of the groups exercising it these days, have learned from past mistakes on how it can do major harm.

It would be interesting to compare the amount of Eminent Domain cases in Texas and comparable places that build their loops and freeways well ahead of any substantial developments to "anticipate growth" versus the reactive instances we seem to have here.

[Mountaingoat]

It would be interesting to compare the amount of Eminent Domain cases in Texas and comparable places that build their loops and freeways well ahead of any substantial developments to "anticipate growth" versus the reactive instances we seem to have here.

If you know the area along l-35E north of LBJ expressway where l-35 is/has been widened, you would be convinced ED has been used extensively (or land/business owners have been very cooperative in selling their properties). As long as the government can show the property acquisition is for the public good (creating jobs, new tax revenues, needed new highway capacity), ED can bu used - and is used everywhere.

[bombermwc]

I'm having to eat my words on Lackmeyer this week. It's really odd. He has a second article this week with some good data and points.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...l/70327819007/

Looks like, unsurprisingly, things are still on track.

[stlokc]

I read the Oklahoman article and I really started thinking about this highway. I may be wrong, but I just can't see that it's going to take a ton of traffic off the current highway system.

If you're traveling inside the metro area from Norman/Moore to OKC/Edmond, you're not using this highway. It's too far east to do you any good.

If you're a cross country traveler going from east to west along I-40, you're obviously not using this highway.

If you're a cross country traveler going along I-35 from Texas to points north of OK, or from points north of OK to Texas, you're not going 20-30 miles out of your way to loop east and then west to use this highway.

If you're headed from points northeast along I-44, say St. Louis/Chicago to points west, say New Mexico or California, you're not using this highway, and vice versa.

If you're going from Texas to points northeast, or vice versa, you're likely using Highway 69 through McAlester (unless you happen to be going to the Ft. Worth side of DFW). This is the route most people I know that live in MO take.

I just don't understand who is going to be using this highway.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ well traffic counts for the existing portion are already well above projections and I suspect that will also be the case when the southern segment opens and they are already planning a northern segment to go around east Edmond and connect up near SH-33. I bet it becomes a very crucial road one day.

[stlokc]

^^^ well traffic counts for the existing portion are already well above projections and I suspect that will also be the case when the southern segment opens and they are already planning a northern segment to go around east Edmond and connect up near SH-33. I bet it becomes a very crucial road one day.

I suppose if they build a northern alignment to connect up with I-35 north of Edmond, then I can see people from northern Oklahoma, Wichita, etc. using it to get to I-40 eastbound. So I will grant you that.

[rte66man]

I suppose if they build a northern alignment to connect up with I-35 north of Edmond, then I can see people from northern Oklahoma, Wichita, etc. using it to get to I-40 eastbound. So I will grant you that.

If I were going from DFW to Tulsa or Kansas City, I would definitely use it. To Tulsa, I would not have to go thru Norman, Moore, and OKC. To KC via Tulsa, Joplin, and I49 would also have the same benefit.

[stlokc]

DFW to Tulsa, yes, I see that.

DFW to Kansas City, really? The traffic is SO bad on I-35 that you would veer that far out off the way? I guess to each their own but it feels like that would tack an extra 30-45 minutes to the trip. That highway is really far east where it crosses Turner.

Dallas to literally any location northeast of Vinita (including your Joplin/I-49 idea) and I can't believe you wouldn't use Highway 69 through McAlester. That shaves a whole lot of time off. But again to each their own.

[bombermwc]

To me, the purpose is a couple of things, and working in conjunction with the west spur.

1, offload traffic from 35 that would be going east or west bound on 40. That's where the partnership with the west spurn comes in.
2, route the I44 through traffic up so it goes right up to the junction near Chandler (or wherever that is, i can't remember exactly).
I agree that I don't think it will have any meaningful impact on in-town driving.

Now that east-west line, may help move traffic along getting from far east sides of Norman, over to the interstate. But i don't think that's it's real purpose.

[josefromtulsa]

^^^ well traffic counts for the existing portion are already well above projections and I suspect that will also be the case when the southern segment opens and they are already planning a northern segment to go around east Edmond and connect up near SH-33. I bet it becomes a very crucial road one day.

The Kickapoo saw about 6000 cars a day in 2022 and 5000 in 2021. Most 2-lane arterials in the city get more traffic than this

Edit: Heres the numbers straight from OTA: https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/...ckapoo_Web.pdf

[stlokc]

Wow, a whole 6000 cars a day? Exactly my point. So far this road does not make logical sense.

To be fair, right now that turnpike REALLY does not go anywhere. I honestly have zero idea who uses it right now. I do think it will improve when the northern segment and southern segment get built. But I mean those numbers are really going to have to increase a lot for there to be any meaningful reduction in I-35 traffic.

[BoulderSooner]

Wow, a whole 6000 cars a day? Exactly my point. So far this road does not make logical sense.

To be fair, right now that turnpike REALLY does not go anywhere. I honestly have zero idea who uses it right now. I do think it will improve when the northern segment and southern segment get built. But I mean those numbers are really going to have to increase a lot for there to be any meaningful reduction in I-35 traffic.

keep in mind that there is no current plan for the northern segment

[Plutonic Panda]

The Kickapoo saw about 6000 cars a day in 2022 and 5000 in 2021. Most 2-lane arterials in the city get more traffic than this

Edit: Heres the numbers straight from OTA: https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/...ckapoo_Web.pdf

Whatever the case is the actual counts were higher than initially projected and I guarantee if you are already biased against roads in general or just these projects(not saying you are) and using these numbers as a “see this road shouldn’t have been built” argument you will be nowhere to be found when they inevitably jump to 50+ thousand cars a day which will happen. Plenty of roads are built and see low traffic volumes for sometime and prove to be valuable in the future. That’s called planning.

I’m also pretty impressed that 6,000 cars a day use this road at this point given it seems to be a road to nowhere right now. OKC isn’t exactly a traffic choked city and I can’t see too many people making use of this road currently while many free options exist on roads that have little to no traffic congestion. So 6,000 cars a day is pretty impressive at this time.

[Plutonic Panda]

keep in mind that there is no current plan for the northern segment

There’s no publicly released plan but it is on the OTAs radar. A couple local representatives have even started talks with the OTA and are authoring bills to ensure the madness currently happening with ongoing Access Oklahoma plan won’t happen with a northern extension.

[stlokc]

While I think this road is ridiculous, I will concede the following point to PluPan. New highways often do start with limited traffic.

I was in grade school when they built the Kilpatrick from I-35 to Lake Hefner Parkway. And I remember we all joked around about how you could sit down in the middle of the road and play a game, there was so little traffic on it. Fast forward 30 years and it is a necessary, and well-traveled highway.

The difference is there is a natural contingency of people in North OKC that use that highway in the course of natural commuting patterns. They have also built countless businesses and thousands and thousands of homes within a few miles of that road. There is not going to be meaningful residential and commercial development that far east in our lifetimes, and also there is no natural commuting pattern, and not very many cross-country patterns that that serves.

Just my opinion.