Kilpatrick Turnpike to be widened

[ljbab728]

They had an extension planned for the turnpike long before it terminated at Portland (cuing Oil Capital) so you think they would have planned for this like they do with most flyover ramps in Texas...

Flyover ramps in Texas are not always preplanned. Do you honestly think that when the intersection of LBJ and North Central was constructed any flyovers were ever thought about. I don't think so. Also, do you have inside information on what the long term plans are for the Kilpatrick are? How do you know that plans weren't formulated long ago for future flyovers there?

[OKCisOK4me]

Ok, you got me LJ, but sincerely, I was trying to bait Oil Capital! In all honesty, I was referring to a turnpike extension in Austin where the flyover ramps have extension ports on them for if and when future expansion occurs. I guess its not all interchanges, as the one you're referring to.

[ljbab728]

Ok, you got me LJ, but sincerely, I was trying to bait Oil Capital! In all honesty, I was referring to a turnpike extension in Austin where the flyover ramps have extension ports on them for if and when future expansion occurs. I guess its not all interchanges, as the one you're referring to.

I wasn't trying to get you. I just wanted to make a point that there is good and poor planning everywhere. OKC has no corner on that market.

[Oil Capital]

Ok, you got me LJ, but sincerely, I was trying to bait Oil Capital! In all honesty, I was referring to a turnpike extension in Austin where the flyover ramps have extension ports on them for if and when future expansion occurs. I guess its not all interchanges, as the one you're referring to.

Sorry, I missed my cue. ;-) (But I honestly have no idea what you were expecting from me... not only did I miss my cue, I forgot my lines... )

[bluedogok]

Yes, that extension was long planned but at the time the project was done they only did a feasibility study for the flyovers, no engineering was done at that time because they thought the extension would be many years out. My dad was the project manager for the design firm on LHP and the Kilpatrick interchange projects.

The preplanned flyover is a relatively new thing and for the most part the only time those flyovers in Texas are preplanned is when they don't have the funds to do the entire project so they only complete one or two like the Ben White interchanges at I-35 and Mopac (both not too far from our house in Austin). Most the time the only full engineering done on the flyovers is the ramp abutment, the actually flyover(s) not being constructed has only had a preliminary design/engineering to make sure that it is feasible to be constructed in the future when the funds do come available. When the funding becomes available the remainder is fully engineered at that point. Only on a rare occasional are they completely designed and not built. Most of the time the DOT's don;t want to pay for engineering that may have to change due to codes/condition changes in the future.

[mburlison]

One consideration on flyovers in Oklahoma --- ICE. It happens, but its very rare that the Dallas flyovers get any appreciable ice on them, but think about that stretch of road over by the Belle Isle area when its icy.

[Jim Kyle]

The preplanned flyover is a relatively new thing and for the most part the only time those flyovers in Texas are preplanned is when they don't have the funds to do the entire project so they only complete one or two like the Ben White interchanges at I-35 and Mopac (both not too far from our house in Austin).

They may be relatively new to our area, but when I lived in the Los Angeles area back in 1959-62 there was a stub exit ramp near where the Hollywood Freeway turned west and became US 101. This ramp led to (the beginning of) a flyover, which eventually became the start of the Golden State Freeway but for the entire time I was out there just ended about four stories in the air. Certainly looks like some sort of pre-planning, more than 50 years ago...

[bluedogok]

They may be relatively new to our area, but when I lived in the Los Angeles area back in 1959-62 there was a stub exit ramp near where the Hollywood Freeway turned west and became US 101. This ramp led to (the beginning of) a flyover, which eventually became the start of the Golden State Freeway but for the entire time I was out there just ended about four stories in the air. Certainly looks like some sort of pre-planning, more than 50 years ago...

Much of it has to do with whether the budgets will allow them to be built. Just because they aren't built out in the first phase doesn't mean they haven't been pre-planned. Pretty much all interchanges are fully done in preliminary design to determine feasibility and for right-of-way acquisition, they may not be engineered or built due to budgetary concerns.

Back then CalTrans and TXDOT kind of led the industry in highway design, many standards of design were developed by them until the 80's. Botts Dots (those little raised lane dividers) were developed by a CalTrans engineer, I hate them, especially on the motorcycle in the rain but I digress. As time has gone on and things got more political than normal for those departments they seem to have lost their way with TxDOT a complete and utter mess that fell into Sunset Review a few years ago for a billion dollar accounting error among other things. They all seem to be in catch up mode more often than not now.

I still don't consider the flyover ramp to be the absolute pinnacle of mans achievements that some seem to.

[soonerliberal]

One consideration on flyovers in Oklahoma --- ICE. It happens, but its very rare that the Dallas flyovers get any appreciable ice on them, but think about that stretch of road over by the Belle Isle area when its icy.

That's doesn't seem to be a problem with the tons of flyovers in Denver or Baltimore.

[mburlison]

There's a difference. In Denver or Baltimore, when it's cold, it usually stays cold and snow is not constantly melting and forming ice, only to re-melt and then re-form more ice. I lived in Michigan as well, and Ice was a non-issue there as well.

I didn't say what I said without basis, it is worth consideration, given experiences I've had on elevated portions of road in OKC over the (many) years. If it's not a point for you, fine.

[Snowman]

There's a difference. In Denver or Baltimore, when it's cold, it usually stays cold and snow is not constantly melting and forming ice, only to re-melt and then re-form more ice. I lived in Michigan as well, and Ice was a non-issue there as well.

I didn't say what I said without basis, it is worth consideration, given experiences I've had on elevated portions of road in OKC over the (many) years. If it's not a point for you, fine.

Denver, Michigan and Baltimore also have more a much higher priority given to plowing, salt, sand and other operations than ODOT. Though with it being a turnpike juncture it will likely have more resources allocated clearing it sooner than if it were a normal ODOT juncture.

[mburlison]

My point is that its a "consideration" not a road-block.

[RadicalModerate]

Do you suppose that Highway Engineers are, even now, figuring out how to address the already atrocious DRAINAGE ISSUES adjacent to this highway--particularly between May and Meridian--that can only be made worse by "improvement" without proper planning?

"Highway Transportation Engineers" . . . (sounds like a seed for an interesting TV reality show, probably on PBS or The History Channel)

[Just the facts]

So after the Turnpike Authority pays for the widening of the turnpike, who pays for construction and lifetime maintenance of all the new city streets, waterlines, water treatment plant expansion, traffic lights, street lights, electricity for said lights, new police station, additional police cruisers, additional fire stations, additional fire trucks, additional firefighters, new sewer lines, new libraries, new library books, library staff, etc... that the expanded capacity will result in?

[RadicalModerate]

That's what is known as "a rhetorical question" . . . Isn't it?
(no feeble attempt at humor implied nor intended to drag down the conversation =)

Quick rhetorical response: Uh . . . I guess The Turnpike Users . . .
(and isn't it actually "the preferred form" to say: "...in which the expanded capacity will result." grammaticallywise? =)

Sidebar:
Why are tunnels being completely ignored in favor of flyovers?
I mean . . . Minneapolis has at least one tunnel . . .
(Oh. I forgot: Atrocious Drainage. And active clay soil.)

[Just the facts]

That's what is known as "a rhetorical question" . . . Isn't it?
(no feeble attempt at humor implied nor intended to drag down the conversation =)

Quick rhetorical response: Uh . . . I guess The Turnpike Users . . .
(and isn't it actually "the preferred form" to say: "...in which the expanded capacity will result." grammaticallywise? =)

This is being discussed as if the cost of the widening is the only cost that is involved.

[RadicalModerate]

Obviously that level of consideration is absurd.
(not "your" level . . . the planning/execution level)

Almost as absurd as having only one left-turn lane at the Memorial Road exit from the northbound freeway intersecting the East-West Turnpike in order to get onto the frontage road (Memorial). Until one letter to The Planner-Maintainers managed to get that corrected.

Hope springs eternal.
Hope The Planners take into account The Drainage.

Subliminal Plug:
Tunnels don't have to be sanded/salted nor have built-in (costly) heating/ice-melt systems designed-in.
(And don't forget The Drainage. =)

[Just the facts]

They are too busy planning how to do it without sitting down and deciding IF they should do it.

[OKCisOK4me]

What does drainage have to do with the turnpike between May & Meridian? It is highly elevated for these two miles. I think it would be Memorial you would be concerned about (which is a whole other subject matter).

[RadicalModerate]

What does drainage have to do with the turnpike between May & Meridian?

You're joking . . . right?

It's all of the water shed from and blocked by the elevated roadway (Kilpatrick Turnpike) that causes flooding to the adjacent roadway and other areas to the north. I'm fairly sure that Meridian, south of Memorial, is also negatively impacted.

I'm not sure that you fully appreciate "the gravity" of the situation . . . unless you live here and actually have to drive the roads. When it's raining hard.

[OKCisOK4me]

You're kidding right?! The only place I've seen flood along the Kilpatrick is south of Memorial on Pennsylvania ... yes, I actually live here. The only reason it floods is because of the residential and commercial run-off that uses those creeks that have always been there. The turnpike doesn't dam these creeks up, you sincerely believe that? The urban sprawl happened before the turnpike was put in so don't blame the roadway...SMH

[RadicalModerate]

OK . . . (OKisOK4me): We apparently have differing REAL LIFE observations and opinions.
(regarding "general hydrology and gravity" and such as that).
Or to put it differently . . . The Topic under discussion: "HighwayTurnpike'Improvements'".
Fine.

But we aren't Highway Transportation Engineers of OKC/ODOT.
Are we . . . ?

Urban Sprawl is not in my dictionary.
Drainage Concerns . . . different story.

There is also the German Word: pronounced "Schlimbesserung"
(Coined Word/Pre-Euro: it means making something worse by trying to make it better)

Perhaps we, together, need to investigate, with all best intentions and results in mind, the sellers and purchaser of The Ox Being Gored In Celebration of the expediture of OUR tax dollars in order to at least begin to approach consensus?
(Sorry . . . Flashback to The Book of Proverbs . . . Solomonistic Semi-Shar'a' version)

I apologize for my mistake (sorry for thinkin' geez . . another NIMBY =) . . .
You live/reside/pay taxes on property on the south side (no, not THAT "south side" just the south side of the Kilpatrick).
Occasionally, and semi-selfishly, I have to drive the frontage road on the north side.
Of the elevated highway. Again . . . i apologize for misunderstanding . . .

I never "blame a roadway" for anything.
Mostly I blame myself.
And engineers and whatnuts.

[Richard at Remax]

Is it that difficult to respond in normal sentences?

[Just the facts]

Is it that difficult to respond in normal sentences?

No, that would be easy. Hard is responding in haiku.

[RadicalModerate]

Especially Bus Related Haiku.
That has nothing to do with Public Transportation.
Within or without The Grid.

[DRAINAGE CONCERNS> DONT FORGET eM]