Oklahoma is not in the Midwest, y'all

[Pete]

But what do they make of Okies with Southern accents, schools named for Confederate officers, Oklahoma's Jim Crow history, the fact that OKC has many times as many BBQ places as the average American city?

Oklahomans have a twang -- similar to Texas -- and not a Southern drawl.

There is a pretty big difference. I remember interviewing for a job in North Carolina and literally having a hard time understanding the executive assistant who was coordinating things. My ear just wasn't used to that accent.

Also, BBQ takes all forms and certainly isn't unique to the South.

And while Oklahoma's racial history is nothing to be proud of, I remember being shocked when traveling to the South (Carolina's, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee) for the first time, at that point having spent my whole life in Oklahoma.


I will admit, however, that I have never liked Oklahoma (and me by extension) being associated with the South and therefore am inclined to argue these points from that perspective.

Interestingly, no one here in California seems to associate Oklahoma with the South, which is fine by me.

[Studying Okie]

Evangelicalism is by no means a Southern only thing, and if that's our strongest tie to the South, we're not Southern at all. The two evangelicalisms also

Oklahoma was developed on the following events:

Native American Relocation: Roots - Native American
The Land Run: Roots - Everywhere
Oil Boom: Roots - Texoma/California

Both OKC and Tulsa have closer ties to both Kansas City and Dallas than we do any southern city…Tulsa more toward the former and OKC more toward the latter.

Oklahoma is Oklahoma and Texas is Texas…but if it takes 2 states to make a region, you won't find any close matches to either Texas or Oklahoma outside of each other. Neither is even remotely the south (even though we deal with certain similar issues).

I will be the first person to agree that if Oklahoma and Texas could be its own region then that's exactly where I'd place us. I disagree with you about the events you say are responsible for Oklahoma's culture, though. The land runs brought people in from the Midwest (and some people from Europe), but they only occurred in the Northwest and North Central parts of Oklahoma. Most of Oklahoma's settlers came from the South and not in the land runs.

[Pete]

Not to stray off topic too much, but my cousin had a very similar experience to you in, of all places, Colorado Springs.

For various reasons, Colorado Springs has been a haven for evangelicals for quite a while. Several such agencies and groups are presently based there.

[bchris02]

Not to stray off topic too much, but my cousin had a very similar experience to you in, of all places, Colorado Springs. My uncle was an army officer and stationed in Fort Carson in the late 90's, about the same time a lot of evangelical organizations based in the city were at their peak power. These places like Focus on the family employed a ton of people and had a direct impact on the culture of the town. They themselves were committed Methodists but were basically run out of town. From what I hear, it is not as near as intense once Ted Haggard fell from grace. But it does go to show you evangelical Christianity is not a southern-exclusive thing, at least not these days.

I remember a survey recently showed Oklahoma had a lower church attendance rate than most of the south (although higher than the national average).

Colorado Springs has long been known as being an outpost of the Bible Belt despite not being in the belt itself. It's a completely different world compared to Denver/Boulder.

[Studying Okie]

Oklahomans have a twang -- similar to Texas -- and not a Southern drawl.

There is a pretty big difference. I remember interviewing for a job in North Carolina and literally having a hard time understanding the executive assistant who was coordinating things. My ear just wasn't used to that accent.

Also, BBQ takes all forms and certainly isn't unique to the South.

And while Oklahoma's racial history is nothing to be proud of, I remember being shocked when traveling to the South (Carolina's, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee) for the first time, at that point having spent my whole life in Oklahoma.


I will admit, however, that I have never liked Oklahoma (and me by extension) being associated with the South and therefore am inclined to argue these points from that perspective.

Interestingly, no one here in California seems to associate Oklahoma with the South, which is fine by me.

Thanks for indulging me in my theory, Pete!

I disagree with you about the accent, though. There's a difference in the "Plantation" style Southern accents and the accents found here, but I'm not sure it's an Oklahoma/Texas thing as much as it's an Upper South thing. It also has a lot to do with the age of the speaker; people born before 1950 tend to sound very Southern, while people born after that tend to have a less noticeable accent and more of a "twang". Of course, people born after 1980 pretty much talk with the "Standard American" accent, like most young people in the South do.

BBQ's origins are definitely in the South, though. There are regional varieties, for sure, but BBQ is pretty much confined to states that have historically been tied to the South.

I am not old enough to know what Oklahoma was like during the desegregation days, but from what I've Oklahoma and Kentucky desegregated much better than other Southern states. I certainly don't want to ruffle anybody's feathers in talking about Jim Crow era Oklahoma.

[Teo9969]

I meant evangelicalism is predominantly a Southern thing.

But it's not. It may pervade the South because the South has always struggled with diversity, but Evagelicalism is far more encompassing than the South and its roots are from a far more diverse base. The South was not the foundation of all of Evangelicalism, but Southern movements buttress a large segment for sure.

Evangelicalism is essentially the ecumenical push of a wide-swath of Christian traditions to produce a more singular and concerted effort toward affecting the world politically/culturally on common ground values. You see this with groups like Campus Crusade for Christ who are para-church and purposely non-affiliated movements that bring together people from all traditions. Indeed, Bill Bright, the founder of "Cru" is from Coweta, Oklahoma and moved out to Los Angeles and subsequently started the movement.

Like I said, Evangelicalism is as much a Midwestern thing (which the graphic substantiates) as it is a Southern thing and really it's an American thing. The difference is the South has always been predominantly dixie-crat and conservative so the EV movement can catch hold there whereas the Midwest has legit liberal tendencies that push back against the relatively conservative nature of the EV movement.. But the Christian movements within the Midwest that are distinctly Midwestern (or at least non-southern) are core parts of the foundation of Evangelicalism, and there are major California-based Christian movements that are part of the foundation.

I'm going on this tangent because it's crucial to understanding the culture of Oklahoma. Our propensity toward Evangelicalism is far more likely a result of our multi-faceted background and the ability of Evangelicalism to unite people from diverse backgrounds on common ground than it is a signifier of our "Southern Roots".

[Pete]

I can immediately distinguish people from OK/TX from the Deep South by their accents; people of all ages.

[Studying Okie]

I can immediately distinguish people from OK/TX from the Deep South by their accents; people of all ages.

I do not have the same ability to locate a person to a specific region in the South based on accent, but I wish I did!

[AP]

I remember interviewing for a job in North Carolina and literally having a hard time understanding the executive assistant who was coordinating things. My ear just wasn't used to that accent.

My company has an office in Birmingham that we work with a lot and it is very hard to understand some people from Alabama. Very different from an Oklahoman accent.

[TU 'cane]

It's not easy to compartmentalize Oklahoma. This is a state where the South, the Midwest, and the Southwestern United States all meet. The Southeastern part of the state is purely Southern. Tulsa has more of a Midwestern vibe than does OKC and western Oklahoma and the Panhandle start to feel more Southwestern. I would agree though that the predominant influence culturally is Southern especially in 2015. If nothing else, the politics and religious affiliation here are in line with the South. There are key differences however between Oklahoma's brand of Southern and what you find in Tennessee or Alabama. Spend a week in Memphis and then come back to Oklahoma City and you'll see a clear difference. Okie culture has a ruggedness to it that is lacking in the Deep South in my opinion and I believe that has a lot to do with how the state was settled and the industries that have driven Oklahoma's economy since the beginning of statehood.

I couldn't have put it more correctly than this.
In fact, over on SSC, there was a thread I created where there was a little debate hosted in hopes of getting OK moved out of the Southeast sub-forum and into a Southwest or even TX/OK sub-forum. Why? Because nothing about OK is "eastern."

I absolutely love discussing what Oklahoma is and actually take passion in it.
Through everything and the times, etc. I still cannot place Oklahoma anywhere geographically.

Midwestern states, as alluded to, include Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, etc.
Southern states include Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, etc.
Southwestern states are really only Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.

Oklahoma is very interesting in where it lies geographically, which obviously influences culture.
If you go to parts in the southern and SE quadrants of the state, you will undoubtedly find your self in North Texas, or even some branding of Louisiana/"Deep" Arkansas.

Head North around Tulsa, and it's more "midwest" than probably anywhere else in the state.

OKC is arguably the most cosmopolitan in this respect as it entertains influences from out west, south, and north.

We have desert landscapes out west, rolling plains throughout, mountains in the southeast, etc. There really isn't a particular place you could put us. Ruggedness is probably an accurate term to apply as it shows our western roots as well.

When I've been to the South it's like a culture shock to me. Aside from Little Dixie Southeast Oklahoma, the state is NOT particularly southern culturally (just politically). Oklahoma has much more in common with Texas and Kansas than Louisiana and Mississippi. As stated above, Oklahoma is kind of a convergence of multiple regions both geographically and culturally and doesn't got nearly into any one.

This was what I actually found most interesting, but at the same time, most heartbreaking.

Heartbreaking because when you spend time down there, you realize that's the deep south, and Oklahoma, as someone stated, might as well be south-lite. You KNOW when you're in the south when you're in Savannah, GA, or Charleston, SC, Alabama, etc.

Went through what I call a great southern tour recently and touched every state in the south with the exception of Tennessee. Okies are pretty far removed from the folks in Alabama and Mississippi, but we certainly do share a few cultural ties and southern cuisine isn't alien in Oklahoma as long as you know where to go.

-----

The one thing that's always bothered me is Cowboy boots and Cowboy hats becoming popular in Georgia, Mississippi, etc.
Cowboys are an invention of the WEST, not the East, folks. We wear boots and hats west of the river, the rest are just posers, in my humble opinion.

It's one thing to be, or try to be country, and a completely other thing to try and evoke something so engrained in western culture when you're East of the mighty Mississippi.

I can immediately distinguish people from OK/TX from the Deep South by their accents; people of all ages.

They're different for sure. Texans have their own Southern twangs, a little more comprehensible overall.
Have to pay attention to which words have a drawl.

[Studying Okie]

I am a little surprised that Okies would have trouble understanding accents from deeper South, as I have definitely heard some very thick accents living here. Can anyone give me an example of an accent they have trouble with?

[White Peacock]

The designations of Southern, Midwestern, etc. themselves are, nowadays, really meaningless constructs in heavily populated areas that have a lot of inward and outward migration, so it's not worth spending too much time pondering to what region Oklahoma belongs.

It's a border region, both politically and geographically, which is kind of reflective of how it came to be in the first place.

[Motley]

No one has ever asked me if I was from the South, but I have been asked time and time again if I was from Texas. I grew up in Altus and spent the first 30 yrs of life in OK (Altus, Norman and Tulsa). A Dr, who fancied himself a linguist specialist, pegged me as OK immediately. Oklahomans don't have the pronounced drawl of a true West Texan, but we have a lot of similarities.

[TU 'cane]

I am a little surprised that Okies would have trouble understanding accents from deeper South, as I have definitely heard some very thick accents living here. Can anyone give me an example of an accent they have trouble with?

I don't really have an issue understanding any of it, but I was making note that there is a distinct difference between Texas southern and "Southern." Texans are easier to understand and, in my opinion, have developed their own drawl and twangs that we also carry, especially in the southern parts of the state.

[Stew]

I'm guessing labeling Ohio as "Midwest" predates the Louisianna purchase. Literally speaking that just seems silly today.

Last summer while in Fair Hope AL some random guy at a restaurant pegged my accent as Oklahoman. I'm like how the heck did you know that and he said Oklahomans have a very distinct accent. I don't see it but eh the proof is in the puddin'.

[TU 'cane]

^^ It's funny because in the journalism world, and on much of television today in general, the "Ohio" or "Midwestern" flat accent is what is preferred. Or so I've heard many a time. It's not offensive to either the west coast or east coast, is one of the reasons I've heard why it's practiced today.

[Pete]

Almost the entire western U.S. has very flat accents; from Colorado to Montana to Washington to California.

With people moving much more now than in previous generations and with the onslaught of A/V media, accents in general have flattened out a great deal.

[ctchandler]

I am a little surprised that Okies would have trouble understanding accents from deeper South, as I have definitely heard some very thick accents living here. Can anyone give me an example of an accent they have trouble with?

Studying Okie,
My old friend in Montgomery, Al., was born and raised in Selma and I understand him but I have to listen very carefully and we have been friends since 1961.
C. T.

[Zuplar]

Whenever I moved to Mustang from Stillwater I always got asked where I was from. When I told them they were shocked cause they always say I have zero accent, which most associate with the Midwest.

[Studying Okie]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

No one has ever asked me if I was from the South, but I have been asked time and time again if I was from Texas. I grew up in Altus and spent the first 30 yrs of life in OK (Altus, Norman and Tulsa). A Dr, who fancied himself a linguist specialist, pegged me as OK immediately. Oklahomans don't have the pronounced drawl of a true West Texan, but we have a lot of similarities.

I am originally from Altus! I don't have the ear for all of the differences in accents that others seem to, but I've always thought of our accents as being Southern.

This is a good example of the accent in the Southwest part of the state.

[Studying Okie]

I don't really have an issue understanding any of it, but I was making note that there is a distinct difference between Texas southern and "Southern." Texans are easier to understand and, in my opinion, have developed their own drawl and twangs that we also carry, especially in the southern parts of the state.

I am of the opinion that "Southern accent" is more of a blanket term for any accent with a Southern origin. I don't think that Oklahomans (or Texans) have the stereotypical "plantation" accent of Savannah or Charleston.

Is Jimmy Carter's accent what most people think of when they think of a Southern accent??

I'm guessing labeling Ohio as "Midwest" predates the Louisianna purchase. Literally speaking that just seems silly today.

Last summer while in Fair Hope AL some random guy at a restaurant pegged my accent as Oklahoman. I'm like how the heck did you know that and he said Oklahomans have a very distinct accent. I don't see it but eh the proof is in the puddin'.

This is exactly what I mean when I say that nationally people have a different thought in mind when they think of the Midwest, and that we use the same identifier to mean "central". Basically I think it's giving people the wrong impression about Oklahoma when we call ourselves Midwestern.

Studying Okie,
My old friend in Montgomery, Al., was born and raised in Selma and I understand him but I have to listen very carefully and we have been friends since 1961.
C. T.

Thanks C.T.! Interesting stuff. I'll have to listen to some of these Alabama accents and hear the differences for myself!

[Motley]

Yep, he sounds like someone from home. Definitely not the same the deep South.

[LocoAko]

Not to my opinion is worth much, but being from NJ/NYC, Oklahoma definitely seems at least a bit Southern to me . Clearly not the "SouthEAST", but Southern-ish. I'm well aware of the significant differences in the history of states like AL/MS vs. OK, but I tend to associate it with some more basic cultural quantifiers: the widespread use of "y'all", the preponderance of Southern Baptists, the availability of things like fried okra... even the famed "What do you call soft drinks?" map, lol. (Though of course as stated, on almost all of those dialect maps, Oklahoma is a blend of all sorts of things). These are all things that instantly struck me as southern coming from back home. Plus, I'm sure people from the Deep South would disagree, but from this Yankee's perspective there's still a sense of southern hospitality here. Call it simple friendliness if you will, but it is something that is definitely not prevalent in other parts of the country.

Geographically we are most definitely 100% Southern Plains, and if I had to define a region, or if asked where Oklahoma is, the Great Plains would instantly be my answer. I admittedly think of this from a weather perspective for its association with severe weather, etc. But I don't think of the Plains so much a cultural region so much as a geographical (sorta how I consider NJ to be the 'northern Mid-Atlantic' geographically but the 'Northeast' culturally).

We also seem equally western to me for obvious reasons... cowboy boots, rodeos, country music, agriculture, and the strong-to-this-day sense of independence and not wanting to be bothered (at least that's how it seems to me, coming from the Northeast). Sort of a "don't tread on me" attitude that's still floating around. There's a tiny bit of southwestern here, but that really doesn't start til west of Amarillo-Lubbock, IMO. The vastness and flatness of the landscape, too.

I should add that most of my exploration of distant parts of the state have come from storm chasing, so I've primarily only seen W of an I35-OKC-I44 line. I'm sure I'd feel differently if I were equally familiar with McAlester, Idabel, etc.

Final answer: Western 55%, Southern 45%, Great Plains 100%.

[Urbanized]

"Southern hospitality" = completely overrated. It very, VERY often isn't authentic or sincere. It is a type of forced politeness more concerned with reputation and rules (and business) than with friendliness. It tends to be backbiting and clannish. Oklahomans are FRIENDLY. They are open and welcoming. There is a HUGE difference.

[Teo9969]

"Southern hospitality" = completely overrated. It very, VERY often isn't authentic or sincere. It is a type of forced politeness more concerned with reputation and rules (and business) than with friendliness. It tends to be backbiting and clannish. Oklahomans are FRIENDLY. They are open and welcoming. There is a HUGE difference.

So much this.