Real OKC snow routes?

[Larry OKC]

The map used to be designated "Emergency Snow Route" (think they were in red, with secondary and lower priorities). Think this would address much of what started out the thread.

Which roads do you KNOW are going to be cleared?
Which ones may be made passable?
And which ones, you are on your own?

Now it is by who is responsible for clearing them?

[MadMonk]

I am independent by nature, hence I own a jeep.

Me too and I've yet to get stuck. To all those who hate on us Jeep or other 4x4 owners, WHERE'S YOUR FUEL EFFICIENT PRACTICAL CAR NOW?





Take it easy, it's just a joke. BTW, It's $20 to pull you out of the snow bank.

[TheTravellers]

The map used to be designated "Emergency Snow Route" (think they were in red, with secondary and lower priorities). Think this would address much of what started out the thread.

Which roads do you KNOW are going to be cleared?
Which ones may be made passable?
And which ones, you are on your own?

Now it is by who is responsible for clearing them?

I am pretty sure there is no primary/secondary designation on the map currently. That's what a huge part of the problem is - there are a ton of snow routes listed, with the responsible gov't agency listed according to color of the route, but OKC just is not clearing *any* of them they way they should be cleared. I tried to get out today to go to work, but turned around when I realized the snow will keep falling and the roads will just get magnitudes sh***ier since OKC couldn't clear them in 2 dry, windless days, so they certainly won't be able to clear them if there's any snow falling.

BTW, NW 164th is also in pathetic shape, and is a "snow route".

[TheTravellers]

Mustang - Yeah, people parking on the street does make snow removal an issue. I suppose you could go through and people that have a driveway, that are still parking in the street, ticket them for obstruction. Or let their neighbors go after them. :-)

Sid - I'm in Norman, and yes I've had discussions with the city every winter and get the same "shut up and go away" response. LOL

Brian - Can probably blame that on the people handling the route schedules. I would guess the drivers are only doing what they are assigned and ignoring the rest.

Eastern - Typically they are around $250-400k depending on the features. I'm not that naive to the value of them. :-) Considering the sanitation trucks could be dedicated to lower risk areas...secondary/residential streets...the risk of wreaking one would be lower. I guess if you want to go into this further, we'd need to look at the reliability and break down factor of using a pickup in a very high demand/stress situation.

Having lived in Chicago-land for a while, you don't want pickups out plowing main roads, that just would not work. They don't have the weight or the power to get through much snow for very long periods of time and they'd break down pretty quickly and often, I'm guessing. They're fine for plowing parking lots, but not streets. Sanitation trucks with plows and the drivers *must* be trained properly (can't forget that little part) would be a solution, that's what I believe other cities do.

And yeah, businesses must get involved and not just accept "Wait until it melts" as an option if OKC is still wanting to be a "big-league" city. That will probably be a week in this case - started Tuesday, I don't think "snow routes" will be acceptably passable until next week. It *may* happen this weekend with the warmer temps helping melting, but we're supposed to get hit Monday again.

[ou48A]

Sid - I'm in Norman, and yes I've had discussions with the city every winter and get the same "shut up and go away" response. LOL

Have you actually suggested the use of plows on our sanitation trucks to the city of Norman officials and been brushed off?
If so,,,,,, it’s time to get involved and organized.

[rcjunkie]

Have you actually suggested the use of plows on our sanitation trucks to the city of Norman officials and been brushed off?
If so,,,,,, it’s time to get involved and organized.

The constructin of sanitation trucks (frame, electrical and hydraulic components) make this impossible without major reinforcement and upgrades. If used as is, almost certain to cause major damage.

[ou48A]

Having lived in Chicago-land for a while, you don't want pickups out plowing main roads, that just would not work. They don't have the weight or the power to get through much snow for very long periods of time and they'd break down pretty quickly and often, I'm guessing. They're fine for plowing parking lots, but not streets. Sanitation trucks with plows and the drivers *must* be trained properly (can't forget that little part) would be a solution, that's what I believe other cities do.

And yeah, businesses must get involved and not just accept "Wait until it melts" as an option if OKC is still wanting to be a "big-league" city. That will probably be a week in this case - started Tuesday, I don't think "snow routes" will be acceptably passable until next week. It *may* happen this weekend with the warmer temps helping melting, but we're supposed to get hit Monday again.

Yes - Pickups are far too light for the job of snow removal on city streets and highways.
I have seen heavy pickups spreading salt in small towns. That might be worth a look for some problems.

[rcjunkie]

Yes - Pickups are far too light for the job of snow removal on city streets and highways.
I have seen heavy pickups spreading salt in small towns. That might be worth a look for some problems.

Norman Public Schools has 4 3/4 ton pickups with bed mounted salt/sand spreaders, good for small parking lots but not practical for street use. (bcause of limited capacity to haul product)

[TheTravellers]

The constructin of sanitation trucks (frame, electrical and hydraulic components) make this impossible without major reinforcement and upgrades. If used as is, almost certain to cause major damage.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bursaw/...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jackszwergold/5298156953/

http://www.grounds-mag.com/snow_ice/...ugust_chicago/ says
"Second, nearly 200 garbage trucks were mounted with quick-hitch plows before the holiday weekend so they would be ready to help at a moment’s notice."

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/sarajs/4396856970/

I stopped looking after these...

[rcjunkie]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bursaw/...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jackszwergold/5298156953/

http://www.grounds-mag.com/snow_ice/...ugust_chicago/ says
"Second, nearly 200 garbage trucks were mounted with quick-hitch plows before the holiday weekend so they would be ready to help at a moment’s notice."

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/sarajs/4396856970/

I stopped looking after these...

Like I said, with major modification, it can be done but for something we would/could use maybe 1 or 2 times a year, it's just not practical.

[OKCisOK4me]

Meridian is looking like a real snow route today. It's melting away pretty darn good!

[venture]

Like I said, with major modification, it can be done but for something we would/could use maybe 1 or 2 times a year, it's just not practical.

What would be the costs associated with retrofitting versus the lost tax revenue for the city over the last week?

[TheTravellers]

Like I said, with major modification, it can be done but for something we would/could use maybe 1 or 2 times a year, it's just not practical.

Sorry, I just don't trust what you're saying since I have no idea what your history/knowledge is, so I have to ask - how do you know that the trucks OKC has must be modified in a major way? Do all the other cities that do it have to modify all their trucks?

[TheTravellers]

Some city worker (unidentified) on KWTV news at 4:00 was asked how he thought the city has done on plowing, and he gave them a "B" (on the A-F scale).

As someone else said - go to Chicago, figure out how they do it, scale it down to OKC, and don't reinvent the wheel or just keep doing it the way they've done it, it's not working. Chicago's snow removal is always extraordinarily good - we lived there during the 2nd largest snowstorm in their history and 2 days after that, the main roads/tollways/highways (with the exception of neighborhood roads) were clear, completely. Yes, they have many more plows, which is what seems to be hampering OKC metro efforts right now, but it just really isn't that hard. And I'm kind of amazed when one of the things the city says about this storm is that they just weren't ready for it. Really? Really?!?!?! Everybody I talked to knew about this storm for *days* ahead of time, way more than enough time to put some kind of super-blizzard-emergency plan in place if they had one...

OK, enough griping, are there enough streets/"snow routes" (aside from the highways/tollways) that are clear both lanes in both directions that we can post some of them here if anybody knows about them? I still can't, none of the ones I drive are in decent enough shape to meet that criteria.

[JayhawkTransplant]

Me too and I've yet to get stuck. To all those who hate on us Jeep or other 4x4 owners, WHERE'S YOUR FUEL EFFICIENT PRACTICAL CAR NOW?





Take it easy, it's just a joke. BTW, It's $20 to pull you out of the snow bank.

Ehh, I own a Saturn coupe and I have been doing fine during this storm. Sometimes it's more about driving technique than your vehicle. A lot of people here (and to no fault of their own, really) just plain don't know how to drive in this stuff, and don't think to put something in their car that could help them get unstuck.

[ou48A]

There are currently several chances for snow in the next few days.

The Tuesday / Wednesday storm could be significant with strong winds?
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick...&FcstType=text

[rcjunkie]

Sorry, I just don't trust what you're saying since I have no idea what your history/knowledge is, so I have to ask - how do you know that the trucks OKC has must be modified in a major way? Do all the other cities that do it have to modify all their trucks?

I worked for the City of OKC for 28 plus years, and it's apparent I can't say anything that would make you feel different about the cost being prohibitive.

One thing you must consider is the fact that Chicago averages 40 inches per year while we average 9 inches. Also, plows work great if it's just snow (which we almost never get without sleet/ice, they are virtually useless on ice.

[easternobserver]

in many northeast states, plowing is done by average guys with plow blades on their pickups. they go down to the fire station, pick up a route (these days some towns are handing out gps devices for tracking), and go out and do it. they get paid either a flat rate or an hourly rate. now, this is more in the medium and small towns. as for the big cities, more plowing than you think is done with one ton and 3/4 ton pickups fitted with blades. there are the big trucks with the big offset blades and sanders, and then the second passes and cleanup passes are done by the fleet of small trucks -- advantage is no CDL is required for the drivers, the equipment is easier to mount/unmount, and the vehicles are more mobile.

[TheTravellers]

I worked for the City of OKC for 28 plus years, and it's apparent I can't say anything that would make you feel different about the cost being prohibitive.

One thing you must consider is the fact that Chicago averages 40 inches per year while we average 9 inches. Also, plows work great if it's just snow (which we almost never get without sleet/ice, they are virtually useless on ice.

I'm open to a cost discussion, but since you were wrong about road construction contractor incentives, you could be wrong about this too. :-) Seriously, though, should a discussion be opened with the city (somehow, I have no idea how) to find out if it is possible, and if so, what the cost would be? OKC Streets supervisor said that he "had, was supposed to have, 30 trucks" and the little part about supposed to have was kind of interesting, like he really didn't have that many. So if we equip just a few (another 30) sanitation trucks and not the whole fleet (of course, OKC may only have 30 sanitation trucks, I don't know), it may not be as cost prohibitive and it could double the amount of plows the city can use. Who knows, but *something* better must be done for future storms, and yeah, it costs money and I'm not sure how good OKC finances are, but I suspect they're in the toilet, so this may be all we get for the foreseeable future.

And yeah, I know the difference between snow totals here and Chicago, I lived here for 30 years and there for 15. I also know that plows are useless on ice, but I think that 2 out of the last 3 snowstorms (and maybe all 3) were relatively sleet/ice-free and were mainly snow. So that excuse can't really be used for those...

Or why not have the city designate only 4 or 5 north-south and 4 or 5 east-west main arterials as primary and do those until they're absolutely clear, then work on what they designate as secondary, but it's clear that the existing "emergency snow route" structure/plan is not workable at all. That would probably cost the least out of all the options - know what you *can* plow in a storm like this and make it official instead of acting like you can do it all when you clearly can't and deserve a "D" instead of a self-congratulatory "B".

[okcpulse]

Having lived in Chicago-land for a while, you don't want pickups out plowing main roads, that just would not work. They don't have the weight or the power to get through much snow for very long periods of time and they'd break down pretty quickly and often, I'm guessing. They're fine for plowing parking lots, but not streets. Sanitation trucks with plows and the drivers *must* be trained properly (can't forget that little part) would be a solution, that's what I believe other cities do.

And yeah, businesses must get involved and not just accept "Wait until it melts" as an option if OKC is still wanting to be a "big-league" city. That will probably be a week in this case - started Tuesday, I don't think "snow routes" will be acceptably passable until next week. It *may* happen this weekend with the warmer temps helping melting, but we're supposed to get hit Monday again.

TheTravellers, I agree with your frustration, but why is it that every action OKC takes ties into its endeavor to be a big league city?

Houston... A long time "big league city", was completely crippled yesterday due to the glazing of ice that was laughable. Whole freeways were closed. North of Houston it was bone dry, and schools were closed. The company I work for closed its offices, the park and rides shut down, and so even though it was nice to work from home, it was still a laugh to look outside and see dry streets and dry grass.

Does that disqualify Houston as a big league city?

[TheTravellers]

TheTravellers, I agree with your frustration, but why is it that every action OKC takes ties into its endeavor to be a big league city?

Houston... A long time "big league city", was completely crippled yesterday due to the glazing of ice that was laughable. Whole freeways were closed. North of Houston it was bone dry, and schools were closed. The company I work for closed its offices, the park and rides shut down, and so even though it was nice to work from home, it was still a laugh to look outside and see dry streets and dry grass.

Does that disqualify Houston as a big league city?

No. Were the streets still barely passable 3 days later? Can't answer that because it hasn't been 3 days yet, but I'd bet not. If the streets were still in really, really poor shape in Houston 3 days later (and if those days were non-windy and non-precipitation), *then* they'd have problems. That is exactly what OKC's situation was. And actually, it's just a pet peeve of mine that OKC thinks it's a big-league city because of some things that have happened (yes, they're admirable), but if they can't take care of their infrastructure and support structure and all the little political crap that's still going on (despite what folks say), then it's still a fail, IMO. To be blunt, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Big-league city must take into account the entire environment, not just some nice parks, an NBA team, a few good restaurants, it needs to include decent road construction that does not take 10-15 years for certain projects, non-massive amounts of blighted buildings and abandoned strip malls, etc. Whole package, not just a few pretty things to put in flyers and on websites.

I just like to poke at the image of big-league city when they really aren't. Yeah, they're trying, big strides have been made, but still got a ways to go. I just don't get why they can't "fix the basics" as one company I worked for initiated a years-long project to do when they realized they were broken. It's not sexy, it's not pretty, and you don't get a lot of payback except indirectly, but it must be done at some point.

[adaniel]

TheTravellers, I agree with your frustration, but why is it that every action OKC takes ties into its endeavor to be a big league city?

Houston... A long time "big league city", was completely crippled yesterday due to the glazing of ice that was laughable. Whole freeways were closed. North of Houston it was bone dry, and schools were closed. The company I work for closed its offices, the park and rides shut down, and so even though it was nice to work from home, it was still a laugh to look outside and see dry streets and dry grass.

Does that disqualify Houston as a big league city?

Haha! I heard about this from my relatives who live down in that area.

As far as this conversation is concerned, a review of how the city of OKC plows/handles roads would be a good idea but I'm not sure with current fiscal realities a lot more could have been done. People are throwing out all of these northern cities like Chicago and New York and somehow we are supposed to handle stuff as well as they do. CHI and NYC residents pay boatloads in taxes so I would hope that there roads would be plowed. More suburban areas of these cities have the same problems that we do. Also, with the $ available would I rather have OKC be prepared for a snow/ice event that happens once every 20 years or will melt within 48 hours or tornadoes, hail storms, floods, wildfires, etc. that do happen quite frequently in this area and have the ability to cause major disruptions? I seriously doubt NYC has much of a plan in place to deal with tornadoes or hail storms, nor do they need to.

One thing that may want to be discussed is if some local HOA's may want to up their dues by $5/month. Have the money go into a "snowmaggedon trust fund". The money would be used to hire a private contractor to salt/clear neighborhood streets and could only be used after a major winter storm. Just something to think about.

EDIT: Here's a link from the Chicago Tribune with people there upset over the plowing effort 3 days later.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...r-thomas-byrne

[okcpulse]

No. Were the streets still barely passable 3 days later? Can't answer that because it hasn't been 3 days yet, but I'd bet not. If the streets were still in really, really poor shape in Houston 3 days later (and if those days were non-windy and non-precipitation), *then* they'd have problems. That is exactly what OKC's situation was. And actually, it's just a pet peeve of mine that OKC thinks it's a big-league city because of some things that have happened (yes, they're admirable), but if they can't take care of their infrastructure and support structure and all the little political crap that's still going on (despite what folks say), then it's still a fail, IMO. To be blunt, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. Big-league city must take into account the entire environment, not just some nice parks, an NBA team, a few good restaurants, it needs to include decent road construction that does not take 10-15 years for certain projects, non-massive amounts of blighted buildings and abandoned strip malls, etc. Whole package, not just a few pretty things to put in flyers and on websites.

I just like to poke at the image of big-league city when they really aren't. Yeah, they're trying, big strides have been made, but still got a ways to go. I just don't get why they can't "fix the basics" as one company I worked for initiated a years-long project to do when they realized they were broken. It's not sexy, it's not pretty, and you don't get a lot of payback except indirectly, but it must be done at some point.

Then based on your argument, not a single city in this country qualifies as a big league city. Every single city in this country suffers from one or more of the symptoms you just described, Oklahoma City included. Every city has infrastructure issues, political issues and social issues. It's called human imperfection. Is it acceptable? No. Can Oklahoma City improve its services? Certainly. Nonetheless, there is no utopia in the U.S.

[rcjunkie]

I've tried to answer a few questions re: Snow Plow's in OKC, but I've finally came to the conclusion that there are a few that will always try to find the negative in everything OKC does so I'll stop giving answers to people that don't really want an answer.

[workman45]

Having the same question in mind, I assumed the cost factor was the reason for not having the extra plows. Thanks for the comformation.