Western Avenue District

[Just the facts]

There are sidewalks on much of Western between 36th and 50th, but there are so many driveways bisecting them that it makes the area feel less walkable. The other problem is that there are no stoplights. Pedestrians have to take their lives into their hands because people frequently drive 40 through there. I shop a lot in that area and even backing out from the angle parking in front of some of the stores is risky, much less trying to cross the street on foot.

That is why I suggested roundabouts at 41st and 46th. It slows the traffic down which makes it safer for everyone. I would even like to see mid-block crosswalks that have the yellow crossing lights like they have in London. As for all the driveways, that section would need to be completely reworked. It needs to be road, parking, large sidewalk, store front. Right now it is road, sidewalk, parking, small sidewalk, store front.

[Urban Pioneer]

Well again, the 2007 bond issue Western Ave project that has not started yet is all about walkability. In fact, it is my understanding that it will change very little of the street itself (remains two lanes) and focuses more on sidewalks, landscaping, and monuments. We are working a little bit on it.

[Just the facts]

Well again, the 2007 bond issue Western Ave project that has not started yet is all about walkability. In fact, it is my understanding that it will change very little of the street itself (remains two lanes) and focuses more on sidewalks, landscaping, and monuments. We are working a little bit on it.

That is good to know, now we just need to get rid of the zoning restrictions. It would also be nice if the commercial activity wasn't restricted to just Western but went down the side streets as well.

[MDot]

Well again, the 2007 bond issue Western Ave project that has not started yet is all about walkability. In fact, it is my understanding that it will change very little of the street itself (remains two lanes) and focuses more on sidewalks, landscaping, and monuments. We are working a little bit on it.

I'm not familiar with the 2007 bond issue for Western Ave so is it delayed currently or has it not been scheduled to start yet?

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm not familiar with the 2007 bond issue for Western Ave so is it delayed currently or has it not been scheduled to start yet?

I will try to find out. I need to know for our project as well. Lol. I do know that the final designs were completed by the engineering firm and submitted for approval. Work had been scheduled to start the first part of next year but it could have been delayed. It is a pretty expansive project.

[Spartan]

That is good to know, now we just need to get rid of the zoning restrictions. It would also be nice if the commercial activity wasn't restricted to just Western but went down the side streets as well.

There are nice houses on both sides of the street though? (granted, some streets that are less nice, too, but it's mostly pretty nice)

[ljbab728]

There are nice houses on both sides of the street though? (granted, some streets that are less nice, too, but it's mostly pretty nice)

Yes, that's a well developed residential area and it may not be too conducive to extended commercial activity there. There is plenty of room for commercial development in that corridor without going into the residential areas.

[Spartan]

As for as all that goes, I think Western still needs to grow, honestly. It still looks pretty fledgling if you compare it to Brookside, for example. I see Brookside as an example of precisely what Western CAN become, but it has a long ways to go. Brookside has benefited from being in the most upscale part of the state, Philbrook and all. The inner north side is still considered kinda dumpy by people who don't really know. As the inner north side's reputation and image gets a big upgrade with some of these new projects happening all around, I think that will be a big difference-maker for Western Avenue as well.

[Rover]

Where Brookside is essentially about 15 blocks long, Western spreads the same thing and more about 50 blocks. Wilshire to 63rd, then the Curve to 36th, then it jumps over to Classen on down to downtown. Most of the cool part of Brookside is between 33rd and 36th and then scattered along the way out to I-44 (51st). Either Western from Wishire to Chesapeake or Western from the Curve to the Cafe Nova area is very comparable (without the tattoo parlors and biker bars in Brookside. Western from 30th to Classen has a ways to go.

[Just the facts]

I don't think we are talking about the same thing on Western. I get the impression some of you want Western to be a 4 mile long retail corridor. I am suggesting that it have four neighborhood commercial clusters one mile or so apart over a 4 miles total length.

[Spartan]

Where Brookside is essentially about 15 blocks long, Western spreads the same thing and more about 50 blocks. Wilshire to 63rd, then the Curve to 36th, then it jumps over to Classen on down to downtown. Most of the cool part of Brookside is between 33rd and 36th and then scattered along the way out to I-44 (51st). Either Western from Wishire to Chesapeake or Western from the Curve to the Cafe Nova area is very comparable (without the tattoo parlors and biker bars in Brookside. Western from 30th to Classen has a ways to go.

Peoria from about 33rd down to 41st is always jumping in the evenings. There's not a strip like it elsewhere in the state. The area around Cafe Nova has practically nothing in common with the Brookside's densest blocks. It's like comparing Bricktown to South Beach. Outside of those 4-5 blocks of Brookside though, I would agree that the strips are similar. Whole Foods is at 41st, Perry's is across the street, the new Ballet Tulsa facility is past 45th, and so on.

I did anticipate the "Western has everything that Brookside has, just more spread out" argument. The problem with that though is that it IS the critical mass of Brookside, with everything packed in so tight, that creates this "jumping" environment with crowds everywhere. You can actually see people enjoying all of the different patios, window shopping, on a rooftop bar, just taking a stroll along the strip, etc. Seeing other humans like yourself actually doing active things brings the urban experience to another level not seen elsewhere in Oklahoma.

[Rover]

Spartan, I agree and I don't. I used to live near the area in Tulsa and really enjoyed it. But the really lively area is a very few blocks. My point was that in OKC, as with a lot of things, there is little concentration of business and activity and that hurts. Sometimes being smaller helps. Tulsa, Wichita, etc. almost seem to benefit by having smaller populations and higher concentration of businesses in fewer and smaller areas. OKC has soooo many pockets that compete with each other it scatters everyone. We have Western, mid-town, Bricktown, Deep Deuce and now Film Row and AA, all competing for being "cool". We don't let one mature before we are on to the other. Hard to gain critical mass everywhere. I think we have had fantastic progress the last 10 years, but we seem to have difficulty concentrating.

[lasomeday]

There's not a strip like it elsewhere in the state.

I beg to differ. Cherry Street is pretty close, and Campus Corner has come a long way in the last few years!

[metro]

Spartan, I agree and I don't. I used to live near the area in Tulsa and really enjoyed it. But the really lively area is a very few blocks. My point was that in OKC, as with a lot of things, there is little concentration of business and activity and that hurts. Sometimes being smaller helps. Tulsa, Wichita, etc. almost seem to benefit by having smaller populations and higher concentration of businesses in fewer and smaller areas. OKC has soooo many pockets that compete with each other it scatters everyone. We have Western, mid-town, Bricktown, Deep Deuce and now Film Row and AA, all competing for being "cool". We don't let one mature before we are on to the other. Hard to gain critical mass everywhere. I think we have had fantastic progress the last 10 years, but we seem to have difficulty concentrating.

What.......maybe if the government was doing the development, but when PEOPLE own property all over ANY city, it happens organically. If I own property in AA and you own in Film Row, why on earth would I wait 20 or more years for your area to fully develop before I decided to develop my area, just so one area can "mature". That's asinine. Any healthy city has multiple pockets of development and it is usually cyclical in popularity. OKC is doing a darn fine job given our population, land size, and average HH income. You also have to realize we are decades and even centuries younger than more developed cities.

[BG918]

The area around Cafe Nova is similar to Brookside. It just needs a unified streetscape and more density. A few more continous blocks like Cafe Nova/Sushi Neko/Will Rogers Theater would really enhance the walkability. There is a decent nightlife district with places in walking distance of each other (VZD's, Sipango, Nova, Neko) but a few more places in addition to the Speakeasy, Hi Lo and Edna's a bit further north would be great.

[Rover]

What.......maybe if the government was doing the development, but when PEOPLE own property all over ANY city, it happens organically. If I own property in AA and you own in Film Row, why on earth would I wait 20 or more years for your area to fully develop before I decided to develop my area, just so one area can "mature". That's asinine. Any healthy city has multiple pockets of development and it is usually cyclical in popularity. OKC is doing a darn fine job given our population, land size, and average HH income. You also have to realize we are decades and even centuries younger than more developed cities.

Wow. If you follow my posts you would know I am often criticized for being TOO pro free enterprise. I am not sure I understand your response. However, it doesn't change the fact that our patterns HAVE been scitzo. We don't have the population to develop well everything we have going now. It will take a great amount of time. Some cities have organically concentrated. We have not.

I know it isn't in the core, but we may well find out that the Curve and Western north and south of Chesapeake will develop quickly and fully because one developer is creating their own center of gravity. Others will fall into it as it quickly becomes denser and more developed.

[metro]

You can only control it so much in a free market, or what's left of one.

I own property in SOSA, why would I wait to help jumpstart this area until Western Ave. or Deep Deuce reach critical mass? Areas can coexist while still finding themselves.

[dankrutka]

You can only control it so much in a free market, or what's left of one.

I own property in SOSA, why would I wait to help jumpstart this area until Western Ave. or Deep Deuce reach critical mass? Areas can coexist while still finding themselves.

Yes. The free market has completely disappeared. The strangest part is that my life seems exactly the same and I still make free market choices everyday. The sky is falling!

[Just the facts]

You can only control it so much in a free market, or what's left of one.

Free market left the building a long time ago. The entire urban sprawl model was built on automobile subsidies.

[Rover]

Sometimes it is better to create some synergy. Everybody for themselves doesn't necessarily mean everyone wins. Cooperation can often benefit EVERYONE.

[onthestrip]

The area around Cafe Nova is similar to Brookside. It just needs a unified streetscape and more density. A few more continous blocks like Cafe Nova/Sushi Neko/Will Rogers Theater would really enhance the walkability. There is a decent nightlife district with places in walking distance of each other (VZD's, Sipango, Nova, Neko) but a few more places in addition to the Speakeasy, Hi Lo and Edna's a bit further north would be great.

Western is hardly like Brookside or even Cherry St, which I like best. The problem is that it will be very difficult to redevelop any areas to the immediate north and south of Neko/nova/VZDs. The south side is all but impossible with Putnam Heights homes along that stretch. Possibly to the north but unlikely as well. The large swath of commercial buildings like Brookside has is not present along Western. At least not in a concentrated area. If more people would have been in on the redeveloping a decade ago when properties were cheaper we could have been further along. Sadly, it is basically too espensive and difficult to redevelop along that stretch of Western.

[dankrutka]

I've said this before, but as far as vibrant, dense, walkable, organic urban entertainment districts go, Tulsa has had an edge for a long time, but OKC has some nice potential... This is how I'd rank them using the previous adjectives (not personal preference) as criteria:

1. Brookside (Tulsa)
2. Campus Corner (Norman)
3. Bricktown (OKC)
4. Cherry Street (Tulsa)
5. Western (OKC)
6. Blue Dome (Tulsa)
7. The Strip (Stillwater)
8. Brady (Tulsa)
9. Plaza Court (OKC)
10. Plaza District (OKC)
11. Paseo (OKC)
12. Main Street (Norman)
13. Automobile Alley (including 9th Street) (OKC)
14. Film Row (OKC)
15. Deep Deuce (OKC)

Some of these are fledgling and probably shouldn't be on the list, but they may grow in the future. What does everyone think? Am I leaving any districts off? Looking at the list, OKC's problem seems to be that it has too many districts for them to really grow.

[Rover]

Free market left the building a long time ago. The entire urban sprawl model was built on automobile subsidies.

Au contraire. To deny the attractiveness of suburban living to a vast market is as ignorant as not recognizing the importance of re-urbanization. The government didn't create sprawl, they just didn't control or discourage it well.

[Just the facts]

Au contraire. To deny the attractiveness of suburban living to a vast market is as ignorant as not recognizing the importance of re-urbanization. The government didn't create sprawl, they just didn't control or discourage it well.

Government did create sprawl. They built the roads that made it possible, provided the loans to returning soldiers to buy the homes, subsidized the auto industry to provide the cars, subsidized the oil companies for providing the fuel, and passed law after law to encourage more construction, and then passed more laws to decreased the density of that new development. One measure of the economy today used by the government is housing starts. If the sprawl isn't growing fast enough the economy appears to be doing worse.

In the last year I have read two great eye openers. The Road to Serfdom and Suburban Nation (actually I am still reading Suburban Nation). I highly recommend Suburban Nation to everyone interested in the subject.

In most places the government has made it illegal to rebuild the traditional neighborhood model - OKC included.

[Rover]

Wow! So we need to discredit the market and you want to believe the only reason people live in the suburbs is a government conspiracy? LOL. Everyone is stupid and don't know what they want except those who live in the inner core. What arrogance. If you discredited every industry the government has subsidized in part or whole you wouldn't have the air transportation business, the rail transportation business, streetcars, interstate highways, water systems, the oil industry, the banking industry, and on and on and on. It is a particularly stupid argument for core downtowners to use now because it is direct taxation and subsidies that have brought the core back to life. Like usual, people blame the government for all the things they don't like and yet ignore it when it benefits them or supports their way of thinking.