I40 bridges in Del City

[Scott5114]

I-240 is increasingly becoming crowded from what I’ve gathered.

I-240 west of I-35 needs a complete reconstruction. Should probably add lanes while they're at it, but the biggest problem is off ramps and on ramps too close to each other. Since I-240 already has Texas-style frontage roads, they could easily adopt some of Texas's strategies for similar freeways.

[Plutonic Panda]

I-240 west of I-35 needs a complete reconstruction. Should probably add lanes while they're at it, but the biggest problem is off ramps and on ramps too close to each other. Since I-240 already has Texas-style frontage roads, they could easily adopt some of Texas's strategies for similar freeways.

I would only wish Oklahoma would follow Texas more than not.

[WitWhy]

Here is some info I found:



- https://www.ok.gov/odot/I-40_Del_City_bridges.html

that brings it in line with the ACOG site showing 8 lanes... cool.

[Plutonic Panda]

that brings it in line with the ACOG site showing 8 lanes... cool.

Yeap. I was pretty happy to read this from OkDOT as well. Now if they can just get an infrastructure stimulus passed, a swift(ish) recovery from the economic damage from COVID, and Stitt really getting serious about Oklahoma being a top ten stage which would require more infrastructure investment from the state itself then maybe we could really see expedited projects and a really nice system coming along by 2030.

[WitWhy]

Looking like this project is about to get started. I saw a sign mentioning work starting Sept 8. Traffic is going to be a nightmare for the next decade on this stretch of road.

edit: here is updated info about the project from ODOT
https://www.ok.gov/odot/I-40_Del_City_bridges.html

[Plutonic Panda]

The next decade.... there are projects 10 times this size in scope that other states can complete in a decade.

[BoulderSooner]

The next decade.... there are projects 10 times this size in scope that other states can complete in a decade.

2.5 years

[Plutonic Panda]

2.5 years

Ah, I was referring to the poster above that said he saw signs saying 10 years. I know OkDOT plans to widen this freeway to 8 lanes but it isn’t in the 8 year plan, IIRC.

[WitWhy]

yes, this project is 2.5 years for 3 crossings ("6" bridges), then once this project is done, they'll work on Sunnylane and Scott St, then they'll have to do Hudiburg Dr, then they'll actually have to widen to 8 lanes. I'm implying the next decade because ODOT can't do things at the same time in a relatively small area

[Plutonic Panda]

Right and that is my issue with ODOT. They need to be better funded and the overly conservative nature of the state is to blame for that.

[TheTravellers]

Right and that is my issue with ODOT. They need to be better funded and the overly conservative nature of the state is to blame for that.

I wonder if a study has ever been done to see if their no-borrowing policy has actually saved them money (because they don't pay interest) or increased costs (because labor and material costs almost never go down, they go up). Seems like such a study should be done, if it hasn't already.

[Plutonic Panda]

I wonder if a study has ever been done to see if their no-borrowing policy has actually saved them money (because they don't pay interest) or increased costs (because labor and material costs almost never go down, they go up). Seems like such a study should be done, if it hasn't already.

+1 and I think many people would be surprised.

[bombermwc]

I understand what you're saying, but i dont think the logic holds.

Bonds typically are not super long. It's an easy check. What's the current rate of inflation? Is that amount larger than what the STATE would pay for a loan rate? I've yet to see those run in such a way that the term of the bond would cause the lobor inflation to rise faster than the interest amount. And that labor increase also increases the loan cost, thus the amount of interest paid.

We have to wait a little longer, but no i dont think that it is costing us money by waiting. Now if we have a 20 year bond for something...yeah, it would cheaper to do a loan (IF the loan market is favorable). You have to balance the term length of the bond to see what the rates are between the formula. It all ties to that bond term.

[TheTravellers]

I understand what you're saying, but i dont think the logic holds.

Bonds typically are not super long. It's an easy check. What's the current rate of inflation? Is that amount larger than what the STATE would pay for a loan rate? I've yet to see those run in such a way that the term of the bond would cause the lobor inflation to rise faster than the interest amount. And that labor increase also increases the loan cost, thus the amount of interest paid.

We have to wait a little longer, but no i dont think that it is costing us money by waiting. Now if we have a 20 year bond for something...yeah, it would cheaper to do a loan (IF the loan market is favorable). You have to balance the term length of the bond to see what the rates are between the formula. It all ties to that bond term.

Good points, thanks, figured someone more knowledgeable than me would jump in. However, construction material costs also have to be considered - do those fluctuate much or go up comparable to the labor rate or ....?

[Plutonic Panda]

I understand what you're saying, but i dont think the logic holds.

Bonds typically are not super long. It's an easy check. What's the current rate of inflation? Is that amount larger than what the STATE would pay for a loan rate? I've yet to see those run in such a way that the term of the bond would cause the lobor inflation to rise faster than the interest amount. And that labor increase also increases the loan cost, thus the amount of interest paid.

We have to wait a little longer, but no i dont think that it is costing us money by waiting. Now if we have a 20 year bond for something...yeah, it would cheaper to do a loan (IF the loan market is favorable). You have to balance the term length of the bond to see what the rates are between the formula. It all ties to that bond term.

Good points but keep in mind that lost time and productivity due to neglected infrastructure need to be factored in.

[Buffalo Bill]

I wonder if a study has ever been done to see if their no-borrowing policy has actually saved them money (because they don't pay interest) or increased costs (because labor and material costs almost never go down, they go up). Seems like such a study should be done, if it hasn't already.

ODOT has borrowed money in the past, at least since the 90’s or early aughts. GARVEE bonds and others. There is no no-borrowing policy.

Google “okladot” and “debt service”.

[TheTravellers]

ODOT has borrowed money in the past, at least since the 90’s or early aughts. GARVEE bonds and others. There is no no-borrowing policy.

Google “okladot” and “debt service”.

Wasn't there a no-borrowing policy in the past at some point, though?

[Buffalo Bill]

Wasn't there a no-borrowing policy in the past at some point, though?

GARVEE came out in the mid to late 90’s. ODOT participated in that. Prior to that they probably didn’t borrow to pay for projects because they had no stable funding mechanism for the projects they had, much less to go into debt to fund future projects. Think of it as someone with a $40,000/ year salary trying to buy a half million dollar home.

Most recently ODOT did a TIFIA loan to help finance construction of the Gilcrease Turnpike.

https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/pos...ase-expressway

[TheTravellers]

GARVEE came out in the mid to late 90’s. ODOT participated in that. Prior to that they probably didn’t borrow to pay for projects because they had no stable funding mechanism for the projects they had, much less to go into debt to fund future projects. Think of it as someone with a $40,000/ year salary trying to buy a half million dollar home.

Most recently ODOT did a TIFIA loan to help finance construction of the Gilcrease Turnpike.

https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/pos...ase-expressway

OK, thanks, knew OTA could do bonds and borrow, didn't know about OKDOT.

[DCARS]

There is no plans to go to 8 lanes. ACOG has no connection to ODOT whatsoever. They are a group comprised of representatives from neighboring cities that put together their recommendations but there is no requirement to take those recommendations. The Douglas portion will also involve removing the bridge to nowhere that use to go into a neighborhood on the NE side of Tinker. That portion will widen I-40 to six lanes out to the I-240 split.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe 8 lanes will be in the future, probably beyond my lifetime but eventually it probably will.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^ you have zero clue what you’re talking about

[WitWhy]

There is no plans to go to 8 lanes. ACOG has no connection to ODOT whatsoever. They are a group comprised of representatives from neighboring cities that put together their recommendations but there is no requirement to take those recommendations. The Douglas portion will also involve removing the bridge to nowhere that use to go into a neighborhood on the NE side of Tinker. That portion will widen I-40 to six lanes out to the I-240 split.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe 8 lanes will be in the future, probably beyond my lifetime but eventually it probably will.

Directly from ODOT, "The bridges will be widened to accommodate a fourth lane in each direction and built taller to bring them to modern bridge standards."
https://www.ok.gov/odot/I-40_Del_City_bridges.html

It might not be on the 8 year plan but ODOT is certainly planning for it.

[Scott5114]

Good points, thanks, figured someone more knowledgeable than me would jump in. However, construction material costs also have to be considered - do those fluctuate much or go up comparable to the labor rate or ....?

Over the last couple of decades or so, construction materials cost in general has increased above the rate of inflation. The exact amount differs depending on what materials are being used, of course. Asphalt has oil in it, so its price will fluctuate with the price of oil.

[WitWhy]

they're certainly making progress with all demo work on the eastbound side. i wish they'd work 24/7 so it wouldn't take 2 1/2 years

[WitWhy]

It looks like they're going to widen this section of I-40 to support 8 lanes in the future. They're doing a lot of dirt work and laying new concrete between the bridges on the far outside next to the frontage road. Pete, maybe we could get some aerial photos?