Innovation District

[HOT ROD]

first off, I never said any thing about the type of statues or whatever. I said that we shouldn't destroy history just because we are now so politically correct. This is what the mao era ccp did during the cultural revolution, they destroyed anything tied to the past in order to "bring the country forward" when in reality they used it as an excuse to get rid of tradition, culture in order to brainwash society.

I fear the same here. We surely agree that there were bad actors from history so why not STATE the history and why it was bad rather than try to cover it up. And as a person of mixed race from Oklahoma City, I never felt the racist ferver many on here are saying that existed due to a statue of this or a naming of a school. I'd also argue that non-minorities probably never had privilege due to those names either nor because most statues are of white pioneers and settlers, etc. No, the privilege comes from the INTERPRETATION of history, leaving some things out (or glancing on them) yet highlighting others.

That is what needs to change in my opinion, learn WHY so and so was bad. But if you remove it/him from history then you'll never know - which could be repeated again.

[Jersey Boss]

That is what needs to change in my opinion, learn WHY so and so was bad. But if you remove it/him from history then you'll never know - which could be repeated again.

History should be studied in schools and museums.
There is no place for statues in the public common areas honoring those who took up arms against the duly elected government.

[TheTravellers]

History should be studied in schools and museums.
There is no place for statues in the public common areas honoring those who took up arms against the duly elected government.

Yes, this is the entire crux of the argument.

[Charlie]

Tearing down statues is not "erasing" history, tearing down statues of confederate generals is stopping the glorification of these traitors. Just like we cannot erase what happened on April 19th, it would make absolutely no sense to erect a statue of Timothy McVeigh, hence why we would never ever do such a thing. We still teach our children what happened on the horrid day and we have designated a memorial to honor the victims of the tragedy but we DO NOT and WOULD NEVER put a statue up of someone who was on the wrong side of history. It makes no sense just like having statues of traitors who were INDEED fighting to keep their social norms and refused to see their own evil greed.

This argument is beyond me, I cannot believe as a black man who has SERVED this country that we are still debating such things.

Stop using HISTORY as a tool to hang on to ignorant traditions and beliefs.

[Pete]

This argument is beyond me, I cannot believe as a black man who has SERVED this country that we are still debating such things.

Stop using HISTORY as a tool to hang on to ignorant traditions and beliefs.

Yes, it's just become a political lightning rod to rile people up and get them on your side.

There really is no debate, no more there is about the value of vaccines, wearings masks, the earth being flat and several other common sense things that have been exploited for political gain.

[dankrutka]

lol

I live in Denton, Texas and there was, until recently, a large Confederate monument on the city Square. I grew up in Tulsa and can't remember seeing Confederate monuments and I can't think of any from my time in OKC or Norman. Maybe there's a lot of Confederate statues I didn't know about.

To be clear, I am not at all saying Oklahoma is bereft of white supremacy and anti-Black racism. Oklahoma's first law was Jim Crow segregation, Tulsa was the site of the worst racial violence in U.S. history, and much more. But, I was not around a lot of Confederate history as a child that I can remember, but please educate me because I'd like to learn more.

I think that was just phrased really strangely by Dan.

Which part? Maybe I can clarify.

History should be studied in schools and museums.
There is no place for statues in the public common areas honoring those who took up arms against the duly elected government.

I was trying to say something similar, but this is far more succinct and eloquent.

[dankrutka]

first off, I never said any thing about the type of statues or whatever. I said that we shouldn't destroy history just because we are now so politically correct. This is what the mao era ccp did during the cultural revolution, they destroyed anything tied to the past in order to "bring the country forward" when in reality they used it as an excuse to get rid of tradition, culture in order to brainwash society.

I fear the same here. We surely agree that there were bad actors from history so why not STATE the history and why it was bad rather than try to cover it up. And as a person of mixed race from Oklahoma City, I never felt the racist ferver many on here are saying that existed due to a statue of this or a naming of a school. I'd also argue that non-minorities probably never had privilege due to those names either nor because most statues are of white pioneers and settlers, etc. No, the privilege comes from the INTERPRETATION of history, leaving some things out (or glancing on them) yet highlighting others.

That is what needs to change in my opinion, learn WHY so and so was bad. But if you remove it/him from history then you'll never know - which could be repeated again.

As someone who works everyday on what we teach in schools, this narrative that people are systematically "destroying history" like in authoritarian states is really bizarre. I literally know of zero people who have tried to somehow destroy or hide history. Most of the debates actually just focus on historical emphasis and narrative.

Let me give a brief example. We've always taught about George Washington in schools, but textbooks and teachers often ignored his role as a slave owner. I guess you could say educators and the public were "hiding" the history of Black Americans. Social studies educators today don't "cancel" Washington, but we actually teach him and others in more complex ways. So now, I often teach both about him as a slave owner and in his roles as a general and president. My elementary social studies teacher candidates read a Young Adult version of Erica Armstrong Dunbar's Never Caught: The Washingtons' Relentless Pursuit of Their Runaway Slave, Ona Judge. I often teach the other parts of Washington through a critical analyzing of Hamilton (Lin Manuel Miranda's Hamilton focuses on the traditional, presidential, heroic Washington). My students come out of my class with a deep understanding of the revolutionary and early American time period, but not just from the Founders, but from those who were enslaved by them too.

The only example of systematically hiding history I can think of is how Oklahomans hid the Tulsa Race Massacre. The inciting Tulsa Tribune article was destroyed (still no records of it) and it was excluded from textbooks. It wasn't until Scott Ellsworth's book came out in the 1980s that White Oklahomans slowly started recognizing the event again. But, as I point out above, schools have taught a historical narrative that is distorted, simplistic, and Eurocentric/White history for a very long time. That's changing because people are teaching more full and complete histories... or trying to. There's still plenty of racist history being taught, including about Indigenous nations and peoples in Oklahoma... that's another thread altogether.

[GoGators]

first off, I never said any thing about the type of statues or whatever. I said that we shouldn't destroy history just because we are now so politically correct. This is what the mao era ccp did during the cultural revolution, they destroyed anything tied to the past in order to "bring the country forward" when in reality they used it as an excuse to get rid of tradition, culture in order to brainwash society.

I fear the same here. We surely agree that there were bad actors from history so why not STATE the history and why it was bad rather than try to cover it up. And as a person of mixed race from Oklahoma City, I never felt the racist ferver many on here are saying that existed due to a statue of this or a naming of a school. I'd also argue that non-minorities probably never had privilege due to those names either nor because most statues are of white pioneers and settlers, etc. No, the privilege comes from the INTERPRETATION of history, leaving some things out (or glancing on them) yet highlighting others.

That is what needs to change in my opinion, learn WHY so and so was bad. But if you remove it/him from history then you'll never know - which could be repeated again.

How is this still an argument?

Think of it like this. In the 1990's (50 years after the United States beat Germany in WW2), a group of Americans with pro Nazi sympathies erect large Nazi memorials and statues of Hitler in predominantly Jewish areas across the country. They do this for the sole reason of trying to antagonize and demoralize Jews. many Jewish adolescents attend schools named "Adolf Hitler High." Anytime someone demands the renaming of these schools or wants a Nazi statue removed from city hall, people cry of erasing the past, censorship, and cancel culture. They worry about our ability to learn from Hitler's mistakes without the local Jr. High being named after him. They lament that we would surely be erasing the History of WWll by removing statues that didn't even exist until 1994 but now for some reason are historically crucial and irreplaceable.

This is the argument you are making.

[king183]

Tearing down statues is not "erasing" history, tearing down statues of confederate generals is stopping the glorification of these traitors. Just like we cannot erase what happened on April 19th, it would make absolutely no sense to erect a statue of Timothy McVeigh, hence why we would never ever do such a thing. We still teach our children what happened on the horrid day and we have designated a memorial to honor the victims of the tragedy but we DO NOT and WOULD NEVER put a statue up of someone who was on the wrong side of history. It makes no sense just like having statues of traitors who were INDEED fighting to keep their social norms and refused to see their own evil greed.

This argument is beyond me, I cannot believe as a black man who has SERVED this country that we are still debating such things.

Stop using HISTORY as a tool to hang on to ignorant traditions and beliefs.

This is exactly what has boggled my mind about this issue forever: these people were TRAITORS to the country. They tried to destroy our nation and fought to preserve the most evil institution concocted by man. There is no reason to have any level of glorification for these people. And it's not erasing history--no one is talking about banning their mention from the history books.

[Plutonic Panda]

I think these statues should be placed in a museum somewhere in the country as a reminder just how much effort went to suppress African Americans. It’s one thing when you have pictures and are told history but actually seeing these massive statues in person could give someone an “oh sh!t” moment like these were actually real and commemorated. Put them in a civil rights museum in a place called the hall of shame.

[dankrutka]

according to the city, booker t. washington park was created in 1924. Booker T. Washington Park | City of OKC

i searched the oklahoman archives and couldn't find anything in the 1920's.

i found several articles from the 1930's. other than mentions of youth programs and celebrations of emancipation day, there were some issues regarding oil wells on the property. the following was written in 1935 by a candidate for city council, charles w. offutt. please excuse the antiquated language, assuming that the site's filters don't get it for me.


while this isn't direct evidence... if the black community played a large role in selecting the site of a replacement park in the 1930's, it is likely that it had great involvement in selecting the details of booker t. washington park in the 1920's, including selecting its name. i imagine that the site reverted to a park after the oil lease expired. i'm not so sure that the rail spur that gives the park its triangular shape existed at this point... but my old okc maps are at home and i'm here at the office. i also wonder if this hassman park is what is currently called edwards park.

Bumping this post because I appreciate the research you did to actually address this historical issue around how Booker T. Washington park got its name. It is also very plausible that Black citizens knew they had to choose a park name that was amenable to White citizens. I'd be very curious to know more. I'll try to do some research on how Booker T. Washington was viewed at that time in the Black community and see what I can find.

[David]

Which part? Maybe I can clarify.

This paragraph:

Now living in Texas, I feel very fortunate to not have grown up around this Confederate history in Oklahoma. It's weird to me that many Oklahomans would care about Confederate monuments considering the state had a minimal role in the Civil War.

With a close reading I can see that you are talking about the confederate history you see around you in Texas (right?), but just at a glance it kind of reads as the opposite somehow.

[TheTravellers]

I think these statues should be placed in a museum somewhere in the country as a reminder just how much effort went to suppress African Americans. It’s one thing when you have pictures and are told history but actually seeing these massive statues in person could give someone an “oh sh!t” moment like these were actually real and commemorated. Put them in a civil rights museum in a place called the hall of shame.

Yes, this. Put them in an airplane hanger-type facility on their original pedestals (or a reasonable facsimile thereof, *including* how large and high they were and the plaques on them), and have complete histories of the people they are of (distilled down to a few paragraphs, probably, to keep people engaged).

[David]

Melt them down and cast them into plaques that have the bits from the different state secession documents that cover the degree to which slavery was why they were all leaving the union. Throw in the Cornerstone Speech for completeness, maybe the Silent Sam dedication speech too. For extra points the Silent Sam plaque can be made specifically out of Silent Sam.

[Laramie]

In response to Martin's post #24:

Booker T. Washington Park and the Henrietta B. Foster Center (4th Street YMCA) in Oklahoma City is where I learned to swim.

Recall Washington Park how they would open the pool at 9 a.m. , in the morning. You were allowed to swim free. Why, they poured the chlorine crystals into the pool and we stirred the crystals around; then the pool closed at 12 noon and reopened at 1 p.m., that's when you had to pay. Those chlorine crystals left a distinguished 'white ash,' on you that took a good 15 minute shower to wash off.

The pool at Washington Park wasn't anywhere you could get any privacy getting undressed/dressed. There were no stalls for the commodes and the showers were like those in the Army where you had a portal supporting 4 shower heads and don't dare drop your bar of soap and have to bend over. A few of the other youths would laugh and yell, 'black-eye peas.'

Washington Park was an experience. Many of our teachers in the OKC School District were hired during the summer to manage the pools.

They had a little pool for children 9 and under managed by a midget named 'Pearle Cooper.' This small woman was tough and you couldn't out run her; so she kept many of the toddlers & pre-juveniles in line until they graduated to the big pool.

They were very stitch about enforcement of the pool rules and regulations. Those who couldn't follow the rules were banned for up to 1 - 2 weeks. If you got a third violation, you were banned for the remainder of the park season.

Back on topic..

[Jersey Boss]

As someone who works everyday on what we teach in schools, this narrative that people are systematically "destroying history" like in authoritarian states is really bizarre. I literally know of zero people who have tried to somehow destroy or hide history. Most of the debates actually just focus on historical emphasis and narrative.

Let me give a brief example. We've always taught about George Washington in schools, but textbooks and teachers often ignored his role as a slave owner. I guess you could say educators and the public were "hiding" the history of Black Americans. Social studies educators today don't "cancel" Washington, but we actually teach him and others in more complex ways. So now, I often teach both about him as a slave owner and in his roles as a general and president. My elementary social studies teacher candidates read a Young Adult version of Erica Armstrong Dunbar's Never Caught: The Washingtons' Relentless Pursuit of Their Runaway Slave, Ona Judge. I often teach the other parts of Washington through a critical analyzing of Hamilton (Lin Manuel Miranda's Hamilton focuses on the traditional, presidential, heroic Washington). My students come out of my class with a deep understanding of the revolutionary and early American time period, but not just from the Founders, but from those who were enslaved by them too.

The only example of systematically hiding history I can think of is how Oklahomans hid the Tulsa Race Massacre. The inciting Tulsa Tribune article was destroyed (still no records of it) and it was excluded from textbooks. It wasn't until Scott Ellsworth's book came out in the 1980s that White Oklahomans slowly started recognizing the event again. But, as I point out above, schools have taught a historical narrative that is distorted, simplistic, and Eurocentric/White history for a very long time. That's changing because people are teaching more full and complete histories... or trying to. There's still plenty of racist history being taught, including about Indigenous nations and peoples in Oklahoma... that's another thread altogether.

I wonder how many schools in Oklahoma or in Tillman County teach about the history of Benjamin Tillman, the namesake of the county

[dankrutka]

This paragraph:

With a close reading I can see that you are talking about the confederate history you see around you in Texas (right?), but just at a glance it kind of reads as the opposite somehow.

Gotchya. I totally see how my wording was confusing. I was trying to say that there were not a lot of Confederate monuments in Oklahoma. There are in Texas. I don't like them. Hopefully that's clearer lol.

[Laramie]

Gotchya. I totally see how my wording was confusing. I was trying to say that there were not a lot of Confederate monuments in Oklahoma. There are in Texas. I don't like them. Hopefully that's clearer lol.

Thank you, Dan

[Laramie]

Placeholders are fun because they help you envision various projects to occupy space with some density.

Our City's MAPS Initiatives have acted much like a 'booster or charger' to get our city on the move. MAPS 4 will focus more on human needs.

I am disappointed with two projects; Riversports Rapids and now the empty sight of the Street Cars. Let me move over to that thread...

[LocoAko]

Not sure how I'd missed this until now, but here is the draft of the latest land use, preservation, and transportation plan for the proposed Innovation District: https://www.okc.gov/home/showpublish...53930103530000.

There is a 6PM Zoom meeting tonight (okc.zoom.us/j/97081503618 ) for anyone interested in giving feedback, which can be provided here: https://www.okc.gov/departments/plan...-land-use-plan

[David]

Interesting.

[HOT ROD]

told you guys streetcar was not done. ..

[Pete]

[Plutonic Panda]

A fair amount of those buildings need to be completely razed so the property development can start from scratch.

[WheelerD Guy]

A fair amount of those buildings need to be completely razed so the property development can start from scratch.

+1. But i don’t necessarily see the Echo Cap guys doing things the right way here.

Hope I’m wrong, though.