Hefner Parkway Extension

[ou48A]

I think Norman has the perfect highway access.

If that’s what you really think, you are wrong.

Norman has very congested local highways during normal rush hours and way too few alternatives.
In addition to the Norman commuters there are many people who live south and west of the river who basically have one path that becomes very congested. We need another bridge over the river in the Norman area.

The Norman area congestion also seriously delays emergency response times.
.

[Spartan]

If that’s what you really think, you are wrong.

Norman has very congested local highways during normal rush hours and way too few alternatives.
In addition to the Norman commuters there are many people who live south and west of the river who basically have one path that becomes very congested. We need another bridge over the river in the Norman area.

The Norman area congestion also seriously delays emergency response times.
.

I agree that another bridge is needed. However, I laugh at you trying to say I'm wrong because you perceive some rush hour traffic and congested local highways. Now that I-35 has been widened through Norman, a project that will continue to push south all the way through Norman, there is no regular highway congestion in Norman. Regular slow spots like between the Flood exit and Tecumseh, which used to be where it narrowed to 2 lanes, have been eliminated. There is almost never rush hour traffic IN Norman - congestion often begins (or ends) about mid-way through Moore, or more realistically wherever that last fender bender happens to be on my way down to Norman. lol

Furthermore, it's absurd to complain about bad traffic 2 hours out of the day and use it as justification for the kind of freeway access that Edmond has. The reality is that during rush hour, Edmond's freeways are at 80-90% capacity, but those 22 other hours of the day probably average at about 20% capacity, which is absurd. Our freeway system is ridiculously over-capacity. So I have little appetite for an argument that I-35 through Cleveland County is at 120% capacity during peak hours, and probably around 40% capacity on average the rest of the day. I believe the peak operable traffic management system would be at around 150% capacity during peak rush hours and average 50% capacity the rest of the day cumulative average. To put this in perspective, the worst spot for traffic in the metro, I-235 and I-44, is probably around 200% capacity between 4:30-5:30, but I believe I've seen some numbers where that capacity too plummets - I believe I-35 through Moore/Norman actually maintains a more constant flow through the 24-hr day cycle than any of the other highways.

The thing is we can quantify traffic counts, which are right around 100,000 cars a day at I-35 and 19th in Moore, and as you'd expect it thins out the further into Norman you get. There are freeways in Texas that have traffic counts around 400,000 cars a day and are being designed for capacity of 800,000 cars a day, like the LBJ in Dallas. So don't talk to me about needing more freeway lanes in Central Oklahoma.

I will agree that Norman street congestion is an issue, but that problem goes to the Norman City Council not sending an ambitious bond package for public works to the voters, and anytime they send a very timid package before voters, it gets rejected.

[OKCisOK4me]

If that’s what you really think, you are wrong.

Norman has very congested local highways during normal rush hours and way too few alternatives.
In addition to the Norman commuters there are many people who live south and west of the river who basically have one path that becomes very congested. We need another bridge over the river in the Norman area.

The Norman area congestion also seriously delays emergency response times.
.

In Norman, its the river...in Edmond, its the tracks. Covell was turned into an underpass. What's Normans excuse? Either way, Norman (which, yes, is bigger) should have a better highway system. What's the fallacy? Who's responsible? What are you going to do?

[venture]

I agree that another bridge is needed. However, I laugh at you trying to say I'm wrong because you perceive some rush hour traffic and congested local highways. Now that I-35 has been widened through Norman, a project that will continue to push south all the way through Norman, there is no regular highway congestion in Norman. Regular slow spots like between the Flood exit and Tecumseh, which used to be where it narrowed to 2 lanes, have been eliminated. There is almost never rush hour traffic IN Norman - congestion often begins (or ends) about mid-way through Moore, or more realistically wherever that last fender bender happens to be on my way down to Norman. lol

You apparently don't drive to Norman daily. Try anytime from 1PM until 7PM between Rock Creek (sometimes Tecumseh) south until Highway 9 West. Stating otherwise just shows your ignorance on the situation. Then take Highway 9 which is just a mess from about 6AM until 8PM. The rapid growth in East Norman needs to a better option for traffic flowing to I-35. If anything, modifications should be made to eliminate all the stop lights on the highway and reconstruct the interchanges to be a limited access highway.

I will agree that Norman street congestion is an issue, but that problem goes to the Norman City Council not sending an ambitious bond package for public works to the voters, and anytime they send a very timid package before voters, it gets rejected.

We'll see how the bond vote goes that is coming up to tackle much needed street projects.

[BoulderSooner]

i will say that I35 south is still in the process of being widened from just north of main past the river ... so until that is finished there is no point complaining about traffic in that area

[Spartan]

You apparently don't drive to Norman daily. Try anytime from 1PM until 7PM between Rock Creek (sometimes Tecumseh) south until Highway 9 West. Stating otherwise just shows your ignorance on the situation. Then take Highway 9 which is just a mess from about 6AM until 8PM. The rapid growth in East Norman needs to a better option for traffic flowing to I-35. If anything, modifications should be made to eliminate all the stop lights on the highway and reconstruct the interchanges to be a limited access highway.



We'll see how the bond vote goes that is coming up to tackle much needed street projects.

I'm sorry, but no I-35 south of Rock Creek is rarely congested. Not agreeing that there is apocalyptic rush hour traffic justifying ODOT to waste billions of dollars on a new freeway for Norman shows my ignorance on just what exactly? Go to I-235 and I-44 if you want to see a rush hour situation that actually does exist, and like was already mentioned, we'll talk about I-35 by Main when ODOT's current project is done widening it, which I agree was needed. Like I said - there was bad freeway traffic in Norman, but now there is very clearly not.

As for Hwy 9, I too get aggravated just as anyone does when I get stopped behind a long line of cars at SW24th and Hwy 9, and even more aggravated when I have to sit through an entire cycle of lights. That is definitely pretty routine there, but only between 5 and 6 or events at OU. I'd suggest just dealing with it, if one can't handle being stopped at a light (I say that and then try as I might to make the damn light, so perhaps I am being somewhat hypocritical) I would suggest not driving during rush hour. How dare there be cars (gasp) in front of me during rush hour!

If people in East Norman don't like living so far from freeway access, I would suggest that they stop building so far from freeway access. That's a difficult one for me to have sympathy for. What did they expect, the second they announced their subdivision, that ODOT would come rushing in with a 6-lane beltway proposal or something? This expectation that everyone wants a freeway just outside their front door is insane, and from an urban planning perspective, it's asinine. It pains me to be asked to subsidize so much suburban sprawl.

[ou48A]

I agree that another bridge is needed. However, I laugh at you trying to say I'm wrong because you perceive some rush hour traffic and congested local highways. Now that I-35 has been widened through Norman, a project that will continue to push south all the way through Norman, [B]there is no regular highway congestion in Norman. [/B]Regular slow spots like between the Flood exit and Tecumseh, which used to be where it narrowed to 2 lanes, have been eliminated. There is almost never rush hour traffic IN Norman - congestion often begins (or ends) about mid-way through Moore, or more realistically wherever that last fender bender happens to be on my way down to Norman. lol

Furthermore, it's absurd to complain about bad traffic 2 hours out of the day and use it as justification for the kind of freeway access that Edmond has. The reality is that during rush hour, Edmond's freeways are at 80-90% capacity, but those 22 other hours of the day probably average at about 20% capacity, which is absurd. Our freeway system is ridiculously over-capacity. So I have little appetite for an argument that I-35 through Cleveland County is at 120% capacity during peak hours, and probably around 40% capacity on average the rest of the day. I believe the peak operable traffic management system would be at around 150% capacity during peak rush hours and average 50% capacity the rest of the day cumulative average. To put this in perspective, the worst spot for traffic in the metro, I-235 and I-44, is probably around 200% capacity between 4:30-5:30, but I believe I've seen some numbers where that capacity too plummets - I believe I-35 through Moore/Norman actually maintains a more constant flow through the 24-hr day cycle than any of the other highways.

The thing is we can quantify traffic counts, which are right around 100,000 cars a day at I-35 and 19th in Moore, and as you'd expect it thins out the further into Norman you get. There are freeways in Texas that have traffic counts around 400,000 cars a day and are being designed for capacity of 800,000 cars a day, like the LBJ in Dallas. So don't talk to me about needing more freeway lanes in Central Oklahoma.

I will agree that Norman street congestion is an issue, but that problem goes to the Norman City Council not sending an ambitious bond package for public works to the voters, and anytime they send a very timid package before voters, it gets rejected.

Spartan I'm glad that you agree that Norman street congestion is an issue but it wouldn’t be as big of issue if our area highways were brought up to standards. There are several more highways in the Norman area than just I – 35...........


HY-77, HY-77H, HY-74 Spur, HY-9, and their maybe more that I’m forgetting about.

But each of these state highways has segments that if improved significantly would aid in traffic flow in
and around Norman. The city needs to do plenty of work, but so does the state.

But to say that there is no regular traffic congestion in Norman is just pure ignorance.


Not only is it a quality of life issue, it’s an issue of commerce and public safety!

[Bellaboo]

I thought this thread was about Hefner Parkway ?

[Plutonic Panda]

I thought this thread was about Hefner Parkway ?

It is/was, but nobody thought it was really needed I guess, so now it's about who has worse highway congestion, Edmond or Norman, and I think Norman is winning.

[ou48A]

Unfortunately Norman wins this hands down. Edmond has been much better planed and has had a city government and residents who have made things happen for them…… much better that Norman.

For decades Norman has had a strong faction against growth and they must be defeated before anything gets done. Not all our leaders have had the courage to confront them and as a result progress is slowed.

[heyerdahl]

There is no way Edmond is better planned than Norman unless your only concerns are to maximize concentrations of white people and drive as fast as possible.

[Spartan]

Yeah, Norman is a significantly better-planned community than Edmond. ou48A, I don't get the impression that you appreciate the things that make Norman such an excellent community, but consider this: It's got great urban districts like Campus Corner and Main Street and lots of mini districts, it has diversity of people as well as neighborhoods, and it has a good stock of older neighborhoods, mature landscaping, etc. These are all things Edmond just doesn't have, or even care for.

It saddens me to see cities judged on the basis of having new strip malls, new gated communities, and wide lanes with high speed limits. The cities with higher quality of life ratings all fail miserably on the distractions. Really, the only flaw I've ever thought Norman had, is that some parts of Norman do have a lot of new strip malls and gated communities.

[1972ford]

I'd like to see them try to lower the speed limit on broadway to 30 MPH then the Edmondites would would end up with a 4hr commute home instead of 2 lol

as for Norman I hated that place when I had to drive there but then again I only really drove around there in a concrete truck widen some of you roads and that would help with traffic flow everyone does not drive a horse and buggy anymore. Get rid of some traffic ligts to every side road on lindsay does not need a signaled intersection. don't know for sure if norman is set up the same since it has been a few years since I have been down there.

[BoulderSooner]

I'd like to see them try to lower the speed limit on broadway to 30 MPH then the Edmondites would would end up with a 4hr commute home instead of 2 lol

as for Norman I hated that place when I had to drive there but then again I only really drove around there in a concrete truck widen some of you roads and that would help with traffic flow everyone does not drive a horse and buggy anymore. Get rid of some traffic ligts to every side road on lindsay does not need a signaled intersection. don't know for sure if norman is set up the same since it has been a few years since I have been down there.

4hr instead of 2 .... did edmond get moved to north tulsa??

[1972ford]

I go by how long it feels like lol

I've only made the rush hour trip from downtown to edmond and back a few times(thank god I did not buy that house in Edmond) but man that traffic is just absolutly horrible. would probably help edmond out if they would encourage more traffic to 35 with some east/west road upgrades. maybe edmond could make some money buy running buses to and from downtown during rush hours hell they could get hire people that have to make the cummute anyways to drive the buses one way then they could park it downtown and drive it back in the afternoon rush hour. Maybe Edmond or OKC for that matter could get into contact with business leaders downtown to help make this work. that would take a tons of cars off the road IF people are willing to go this route.

[heyerdahl]

maybe edmond could make some money buy running buses to and from downtown during rush hours

Edmond has a free bus route to and from downtown about 10 times per day

http://www.edmondok.com/index.aspx?NID=205

[kevinpate]

...Really, the only flaw I've ever thought Norman had, is that some parts of Norman do have a lot of new strip malls and gated communities.

Yeah, but most of those can easily be avoided by the folks who have a mind to do so. More than once over the years I've stumbled across something new to me, only to have my lovely shake her head and point out to me it had actually been in place for quite a spell.

[1972ford]

I wish I knew bout free edmond bus routes I would have taken advantage of that

[ou48A]

Yeah, Norman is a significantly better-planned community than Edmond. ou48A, I don't get the impression that you appreciate the things that make Norman such an excellent community, but consider this: It's got great urban districts like Campus Corner and Main Street and lots of mini districts, it has diversity of people as well as neighborhoods, and it has a good stock of older neighborhoods, mature landscaping, etc. These are all things Edmond just doesn't have, or even care for.

It saddens me to see cities judged on the basis of having new strip malls, new gated communities, and wide lanes with high speed limits. The cities with higher quality of life ratings all fail miserably on the distractions. Really, the only flaw I've ever thought Norman had, is that some parts of Norman do have a lot of new strip malls and gated communities.

LOL....... You need to tell that to the developers and road / street contractors that I have talked to who have work extensively in both communities because you would get a different story from people who routinely deal in this stuff.
Also, this conversation is not about gated communities or Campus Corner. Its about traffic problems.
But, there is only one west side gated community in Norman.

[Lafferty Daniel]

To try and get this thread back on topic, I agree with the OP that extending Hefner Parkway is a great idea. That part of OKC is exploding and having a highway close by will definitely help the current residents and also help promote future growth.

[bombermwc]

Should we promote that growth further out though? That's been a huge point here that OKC all too often will help cause it's own issues by extending freeways...and the growth follows. Rather than encourage continued growth in that area, why not help connect the East side to complete an east-side loop. At least that way, we would be able to encourage more in-fill in areas we've been talking about wanting more of that.

[Plutonic Panda]

To try and get this thread back on topic, I agree with the OP that extending Hefner Parkway is a great idea. That part of OKC is exploding and having a highway close by will definitely help the current residents and also help promote future growth.

Thank You!!!!!

[Spartan]

Should we promote that growth further out though? That's been a huge point here that OKC all too often will help cause it's own issues by extending freeways...and the growth follows. Rather than encourage continued growth in that area, why not help connect the East side to complete an east-side loop. At least that way, we would be able to encourage more in-fill in areas we've been talking about wanting more of that.

Ding ding ding, at least in regards to us not needing to promote that further growth. If people want sprawl and to still have a highway, they can build west of Hefner where there is tons of developable land along the Kilpatrick.

[OKCisOK4me]

Sorry, but the sprawl is already there and the roads aren't up to capacity (for the Oklahoma standard). Sorry about the east side loop...

[bombermwc]

OK, so you say they aren't up to capcity. So what. If you want to promote people continuing to go OUT, then you build the road to help make it easier for them to do so. If you don't want to promote that, then you simply don't build that road to continue to make it inconvenient. Although i have to say any time i've been up there, once you get past Memorial/Kilpatrick...there just really isn't enough density to justify a whole stretch of state highway. It's as though Kilpatrick acts as the barrier. Yes you have to travel a little bit to get to the highway from further north, but that's true of oh so many parts of the city. Just because there's a highway relatively close, doesn't mean you need it 1 mile from your doorstep.

I'd argue heavily to NOT extend the thing. Now if you make an arguement to loop it around north Edmond, that's a whole other thing. But that merely serves north edmonders to get to the west sides of OKC a hair more quickly. You'd have to go up to Covell or Coffee Creek (or maybe even more north) to do it anyway. But simply going north....there just aren't enough bodies out there. You'd have a better chance of getting it 4-laned to something like 23rd is in NE OKC, but that's it.