Huge mixed used project proposed north of Quail Springs

[Patrick]

Again, just because people make proposals doesn't mean they materialize. Anyone remember The Factory in Bricktown? How about the Steel Yard in Bricktown? And what about Nordstroms, Saks, Balliets, Williams Sonoma, and Pottery Barn in Spring Creek Village. I believe this when I see it.

[traxx]

Again, just because people make proposals doesn't mean they materialize. Anyone remember The Factory in Bricktown? How about the Steel Yard in Bricktown? And what about Nordstroms, Saks, Balliets, Williams Sonoma, and Pottery Barn in Spring Creek Village. I believe this when I see it.

Yeah, I gotta totally agree with ya there. All those examples plus what appears to be happening with University North Park after being told what a great, one-of-a-kind development that was going to be.

[jbrown84]

Well, the developers of Spring Creek Village never promised those stores. It was the Oklahoman writer that just threw those names out there.

It's actually turning out to be mostly local stores, which should please most of you, not disappoint.

[metro]

Again, just because people make proposals doesn't mean they materialize. Anyone remember The Factory in Bricktown? How about the Steel Yard in Bricktown? And what about Nordstroms, Saks, Balliets, Williams Sonoma, and Pottery Barn in Spring Creek Village. I believe this when I see it.

yeah Patrick I have to agree with jbrown. First off the Factory was a longshot. Secondly, the Steel Yard is still going to happen, Minders the guy behind it has always said he would start it after The Hill at Bricktown is finished. The Hill is just now breaking ground. And again, the developers at Spring Creek didn't promise those retailers, those were simply rumors that people ran with. At that time I worked with Williams-Sonoma (also owns Pottery Barn and others) and I constantly checked our future locations documents and there was nothing new for OKC or Tulsa on the radar for at least 2 years.

I do however agree with you that, just because its promised doesn't mean it will be delivered or undelivered such as other projects that were officially announced and never came to fruition.

[Pete]

My bigger concern is that some or all of these projects actually do get built in some form and then end up being ugly white elephants.

This is very common in commercial real estate... Every time there is a trend, a bunch of developers go rushing out and throw together projects without really analyzing the need. And lenders will always give them money because that's how they make profit -- and are more than happy to take back the properties when the projects fail.

This happened with office space in the 80's, then it shifted to retail when that market went bust. For a while, there were tons of empty retail buildings that became flea markets, bingo halls and warehouse churches, and some of them are still around. Even the QS mall and surrounding area really went through some tough times.

I fear we are headed down the same path with some of these condo and retail projects. The better ones will survive but the ones that fail will leave adandoned (or largely abandoned) big boxes with huge, unkept parking lots.


It would be one thing if someone could actually bring in something new in terms of tenant mix or an innovative development. But OKC does not need more Targets and Chilis, which is what these things always end up being and all that happens is that other developments get canabalized.

[jbrown84]

Good points Malibu. There are so many retail developments out there by Quail that sat virtually empty for 20 years waiting for the growth to catch up.

I hope that doesn't happen here.

[Pete]

Retail properties are relatively inexpensive to develop, as any spec space is just a shell and tenant improvements are only made after a lease is signed, and often the tenant contributes some or all of that cost.

And because OKC has so much available, relatively inexpensive land, these things keep popping up on the outskirts, sit vacant for long periods and ultimately just move tenants from centers in the older parts of town, which in turn grow vacant and/or run down.

OKC simply hasn't grown enough in population to warrant much more new retail construction. Think about all that's been built just in the last 10 years.


At some point, city leaders have to do a better job of just passing out building permits like library cards. It just leads to useless sprawl and contributes to the rot of the city's core areas.

[kiko456]

I, for one, hope the man and the project succeeds!

[Spartan]

Again, just because people make proposals doesn't mean they materialize. Anyone remember The Factory in Bricktown? How about the Steel Yard in Bricktown? And what about Nordstroms, Saks, Balliets, Williams Sonoma, and Pottery Barn in Spring Creek Village. I believe this when I see it.

The man's funding is actually in place, Patrick, and you may not know it, but the Steel Yards are still going on. This has been a really time-consuming process to acquire all of the property, but that development is still on.

[jbrown84]

There was a story about this project on KFOR tonight. The renderings looked very dense w/ no surface parking visible. Construction begins in November.

[Karried]

Do they have the renderings online anywhere?

[kiko456]

When I was in the area two weeks ago, I saw a big sign off Penn that was promoting "Quail Springs Village". I am curious to see a) how much longer until construction begins b) how the city will improve traffic in the area c) layout plans

[NikonNurse]

I heard the word "IKEA" thrown around in that story....I don't care what else is there...that would be TOO cool.

[bdub02]

I have heard rumors about IKEA for a long time, but for retailers like this, I will believe it when I see it. Same with Whole Foods, Saks, Nordstrom, or any other coveted retailer OKC has tried but hasn't been able to land.

I wonder why Saks hasn't made the jump to OKC as they are already in Tulsa.

[jbrown84]

Yeah it was unclear in that story whether IKEA was idle speculation on the part of the reporter, or if they are actually interested/signed on.

[onthestrip]

Just a quick educated guess, but I would say Ikea wont be showing up for a few more years.

These big projects always throw out names of large and big time retailers for whatever reasons, probably publicity, but rarely deliver.

[bdub02]

On a related note, is it possible that Penn Square Mall could land a retailer on the level of Saks or Norstrom if they evicted JC Penney?

[onthestrip]

I dont know why or if its even possible to evict Penneys, but a Saks or Nordstrom would most likely choose the Penn Square area before any others in the metro.

[brianinok]

They have been moving a lot of dirt on this project the last couple of weeks. Nearly all of the raw land in that section is being worked on.

[dismayed]

Anyone know the ECD yet or if any tennants have been lined up?

[brianinok]

I don't think anything has been released yet.

I do want to address the Ikea storyline, though. I think it would be great to get them here, but I still think we are a few years, at best, from it. I certainly hope I am wrong. The only stores they have in metro or city areas near our size are the following:

Austin
Salt Lake City
Orlando
Portland, OR

Austin has 700k in the city and 1.6 million in the metro.

Salt Lake City itself has less than 200k, but has a metro of 1.0 million, and 2.1 million in the their larger market area including Ogden.

Orlando, like Salt Lake, has less than 200k in the city, but has a metro of 2.0 and its immediate area including Daytona has 2.6 million. When you also include the Tampa Bay metro (which does not have an Ikea and is a close drive) of 2.7 million and area, including Sarasota, of 4.0 million, you can get up to 6.6 million in the area.

Portland, OR is a city at 530k, and a metro of 2.3 million.

Ikea's announced future store are in Brooklyn, NY (their first in NYC) and the Cincinnati, OH metro (with a metro of 2.1 million). And just off the top of my head, here are some larger cities with no Ikea that I would think they would lean toward before OKC: Kansas City, St. Louis, San Antonio, Las Vegas, Charlotte, Nashville, Denver, Milwaukee, and Indianapolis.

But, I suppose OKC also has many things going for it to get an Ikea, like a lot of good press right now and Tulsa close by adds about 1.0 million to our area (and Ikea probably looks at areas, not just metros, and this development is easily accessible from Tulsa).

[jbrown84]

If you are going to add all those cities to Orlando's market base, you have to add Tulsa, Amarillo, Wichita, NWA, and Little Rock to ours.

[brianinok]

I included Tulsa in the last paragraph. But I completely disagree that I have to add "Amarillo, Wichita, NWA, and Little Rock." I think the distances below support this:

Orlando - Daytona: 56 miles
Orlando - Tampa: 84 miles
OKC - Tulsa: 105 miles
Orlando - Sarasota: 128 miles
OKC - Wichita: 161 miles
OKC - Ft. Smith: 180 miles
OKC - Fayetteville: 211 miles
OKC - Amarillo: 258 miles
OKC - Little Rock: 337 miles

Now, we probably should include Lawton, which is 87 miles from OKC (that adds another 100k. But, we should not include Wichita Falls because they are closer to Dallas than they are to OKC.

Apparently, Austin is the smallest market for Ikea, but maybe they are including San Antonio in that area, which adds that 2.0 million.

So, even adding Tulsa, Wichita (600k metro), and Lawton, that only puts us at 3.0 million, compared to 3.6 for Austin-San Antonio (and that doesn't include going and adding small cities like Lawton). Don't get me wrong, I hope it happens, but looking at these numbers, it will be a real coup if it does.

[chuckdiesel]

We compare more favorably to Salt Lake. We probably outrank SLC.

[solitude]

We compare more favorably to Salt Lake. We probably outrank SLC.

In what?