Tulsa is outdoing us.

[deltablues]

No offense but the Ford center wont ever be as astonishing as the BOK. Its amazing. And the new ONEOK Field is only a smiggen smaller than the brick. The music scene in Tulsa has us beat as well...They have a "scene". and we arent that much larger than Tulsa. We arent a city the size of dallas we are a city (roughly the same size as Tulsa, Memphis, etc.) And i could see the NFL in Tulsa before us.

Heres why....

Think of memphis and nashville (similar in size, one is slightly larger). One city isnt large enough to support both a NFL and NBA Team. So they put a NBA team in Memphis and a NFL team in Nashville. Tulsa also has lots of traffic from the Fayetteville, Bentonville, Siloam Springs area...

[Decious]

You're trying to force this. We just don't agree with you. Some people think that the BOKcenter is ugly. I don't, but some people do. It's all personal preference.

As far as a music scene...I'm a musician. I think that Tulsa has a respectable music vibe, but I wouldn't trade it for the Academy of Contemporary Music that's beginning classes it Bricktown later this fall. Some people would, I don't.

Really? Come on now. You first two posts have been:

1. Tulsa is outdoing "us".

2. Uh-huh.

[OKCMallen]

No offense but the Ford center wont ever be as astonishing as the BOK. Its amazing. And the new ONEOK Field is only a smiggen smaller than the brick. The music scene in Tulsa has us beat as well...They have a "scene". and we arent that much larger than Tulsa. We arent a city the size of dallas we are a city (roughly the same size as Tulsa, Memphis, etc.) And i could see the NFL in Tulsa before us.

Heres why....

Think of memphis and nashville (similar in size, one is slightly larger). One city isnt large enough to support both a NFL and NBA Team. So they put a NBA team in Memphis and a NFL team in Nashville. Tulsa also has lots of traffic from the Fayetteville, Bentonville, Siloam Springs area...

The BOK is better looking from the outside. The interiors will be comparable after our renovations.

ONEOK Field - who cares. It's smaller. It doesn't have a AAA ball club. Yippie skippee
Music- Their music scene is better. We'll never have a Cain's. You can't artificially create that.

[warreng88]

No offense but the Ford center wont ever be as astonishing as the BOK. Its amazing. And the new ONEOK Field is only a smiggen smaller than the brick. The music scene in Tulsa has us beat as well...They have a "scene". and we arent that much larger than Tulsa. We arent a city the size of dallas we are a city (roughly the same size as Tulsa, Memphis, etc.) And i could see the NFL in Tulsa before us.

The argument that Tulsa is outdoing us is laughable to be honest. Like some posters have said, they are catching up.

They are building a baseball stadium? We had one in 1997, they will have one in 2010 (13 years later.) The Bricktown Ballpark's capacity is 13,066. ONEOK Field's capacity is going to be 6,200. That is a lot smaller than a smiggen. It is actually less than half.

I think the BOK Center is very nice looking but once the FC is renovated, it will look amazing. Consider they cost about the same to build and we had ours seven years ago. Oh and ours houses an NBA team.

They are doing river improvements? Again, started those ten years ago and had the Olympic Trials here.

Toby Keith Bar and Grill.... Uh... Original one is in Bricktown.

I don't think we will see an NFL team in Oklahoma for at least 20 years. I think there is too much of a focus on college football for people to shell out thousands for season tickets to college and pro football. The Thunder will do fine because there is only 19,000 in the venue at any given point in time as opposed to 80,000-100,000.

[Jesseda]

wow warreng88 well said and played out

[BDP]

You lost me at "astonishing".

That's reaching, as are many of the comparisons. I have nothing against Tulsa, but it is these kind of proclamations, usually made by Tulsans, that really show how out of touch that community can be. I'm not saying that Oklahoma City is some world class city by any standard, but Tulsa is not even close to out doing it in terms of public assets or living standards.

I have spent more time in Tulsa the last year than in any other year of my life and I have found that many of its show pieces have what, objectively, could only be considered at least an equivalent in Oklahoma City and there definitely seems to be more progress in Oklahoma City within its emerging districts. The only way one can claim that Tulsa is outdoing Oklahoma City as a whole is to 1) have a strong, already established adoration for Tulsa (which is perfectly fine and understandable) and 2) have a limited perspective on Oklahoma City and other cities.

Even the touring music scene comparison is a little specious. Many bands that play at Cain's have and will play in Oklahoma City. Yes, Oklahoma City lacks a centerpiece to its venue inventory and Cain's has one of the best reputations in the country, but bands do play here, it's just spread out over several venues across the metro (personally, I would trade it for Cain's, but that doesn't mean OKC is void of attracting the same talent at different times). In fact, if you're more into up and coming bands on tour, some of Oklahoma City's venues do a great job of booking in that respect.

In the end, you have to really drill down to specific niches to proclaim one city is outdoing the other in certain aspects and in most cases it comes down to personal taste and familiarity. I mean what do you like? The Paseo or The Blue Dome, Western or Peoria, Bricktown or the Riverwalk, MidTown or Cherry Street, The Brick/Ford or OneOK/BOK, blah blah blah, etc. etc. Weighing these things against each other becomes even more ridiculous when you begin to compare them to other cities.

Honestly, the only thing that Tulsa indisputably does better than Oklahoma City is hubris.

[OKCMallen]

You lost me at "astonishing".

That's reaching, as are many of the comparisons. I have nothing against Tulsa, but it is these kind of proclamations, usually made by Tulsans, that really show how out of touch that community can be. I'm not saying that Oklahoma City is some world class city by any standard, but Tulsa is not even close to out doing it in terms of public assets or living standards.

I have spent more time in Tulsa the last year than in any other year of my life and I have found that many of its show pieces have what, objectively, could only be considered at least an equivalent in Oklahoma City and there definitely seems to be more progress in Oklahoma City within its emerging districts. The only way one can claim that Tulsa is outdoing Oklahoma City as a whole is to 1) have a strong, already established adoration for Tulsa (which is perfectly fine and understandable) and 2) have a limited perspective on Oklahoma City and other cities.

Even the touring music scene comparison is a little specious. Many bands that play at Cain's have and will play in Oklahoma City. Yes, Oklahoma City lacks a centerpiece to its venue inventory and Cain's has one of the best reputations in the country, but bands do play here, it's just spread out over several venues across the metro (personally, I would trade it for Cain's, but that doesn't mean OKC is void of attracting the same talent at different times). In fact, if you're more into up and coming bands on tour, some of Oklahoma City's venues do a great job of booking in that respect.

In the end, you have to really drill down to specific niches to proclaim one city is outdoing the other in certain aspects and in most cases it comes down to personal taste and familiarity. I mean what do you like? The Paseo or The Blue Dome, Western or Peoria, Bricktown or the Riverwalk, MidTown or Cherry Street, The Brick/Ford or OneOK/BOK, blah blah blah, etc. etc. Weighing these things against each other becomes even more ridiculous when you begin to compare them to other cities.

Honestly, the only thing that Tulsa indisputably does better than Oklahoma City is hubris.

Untrue. But other than that, awesome post. We're stroking Tulsa lately, and have been for a decade. Hell, they even have traffic congestion. Try going up or down Memorial anywhere from 11th to 91st in the middle of the day (non rush hour) and see how much you like it. That's besides the point, but still, it baffles the mind when Tulsans say how much better their quality of life is.

To say Tulsa is outdoing us is silly. It's harder to increase momentum when you already have it. E.g.- it's easier to go from 0-30mph REALLY quickly than it is to go from 60-90mph really quickly. Don't mistake their higher acceleration right now as going faster overall. We're still operating at a different level.

[BDP]

Actually it's not untrue. I have seen many bands come here to the Conservatory, the Bricktown Event Center, Diamond Ballroom, Opolis, the old Green Door and then come back and go to Cains and people are like "they get all the great bands". So, I ask, "did you see them when they came to Oklahoma City/Norman two years ago", and many say they never even knew they came here. That's what reputation does for a venue. And when bands go to venues and clubs here that don't go to Cain's or Tulsa, they get no credit for it.

I just looked at Cain's calendar and there are plenty of bands on it that have played in Oklahoma City or Norman at some point.

[OKCMallen]

BDP, dude, you're wrong. Seriously. I've certainly never seen a moe. or Drive-by Truckers show here. Yonder Mountain String Band plays there with regularity. Etc etc.

The point is not "plenty" of bands that have played here and Cain's. The point is having the bands that DON'T play OKC and DO play Tulsa select OKC to play. Having OU so close, you'd think it would be a no-brainer, but we just don't do it.

Hell, this year's Norman Music Festival is better than any one event OKC has.

[BDP]

Dude, the Drive-By Truckers have played in OKC. I know for a fact they have played VZDs multiple times. That's exactly what I am talking about.

And, obviously, we can cherry pick bands that are playing there and not playing here at a given point. And we can do it for Oklahoma City, too. That's the point. For example, none of the touring bands currently listed on Pollstar as booked for the Conservatory or the Opolis have stops scheduled in Tulsa. TV on the Radio is coming here and not Tulsa. Pato Banton just played here and not in Tulsa, etc. etc.. There's PLENTY of that both ways.

As for Norman, that was also my point. Lost of bands play Opolis that don't play Tulsa and then a few years later they'll play Tulsa and not here. Tulsa's music "scene" (although this really isn't about their scene) rides a lot on Cain's reputation and the advantage it has of being THE place to play in the area. The Oklahoma City metro sees its fair share of shows, but it doesn't have one single venue as its centerpiece and none with the reputation of Cain's. Shows take place at several venues across town and in Norman. I don't know why the Norman Music Festival doesn't count, especially since it is featuring bands that actually ARE part of the scene, not just ones brought in on tour.

I am in no way challenging Cain's position as the top touring venue of its size in the state. And nothing else competes with it on a per venue basis in terms of the shows booked. However, when comparing the two markets AS A WHOLE, they are much closer than most give credit. The funny thing is that, as your example pointed out, when bands play here people write it off or don't even notice (they certainly never seem to remember it when this topic comes up), but when they play at Cain's people go "why don't they play here", even though they often already have. So, YES, it is true. Many bands that have and will play at Cain's have and will play in the Oklahoma City metro.

[OKCMallen]

Dude, the Drive-By Truckers have played in OKC. I know for a fact they have played VZDs multiple times. That's exactly what I am talking about.

And, obviously, we can cherry pick bands that are playing there and not playing here at a given point. And we can do it for Oklahoma City, too. That's the point. For example, none of the touring bands currently listed on Pollstar as booked for the Conservatory or the Opolis have stops scheduled in Tulsa. TV on the Radio is coming here and not Tulsa. Pato Banton just played here and not in Tulsa, etc. etc.. There's PLENTY of that both ways.

As for Norman, that was also my point. Lost of bands play Opolis that don't play Tulsa and then a few years later they'll play Tulsa and not here. Tulsa's music "scene" (although this really isn't about their scene) rides a lot on Cain's reputation and the advantage it has of being THE place to play in the area. The Oklahoma City metro sees its fair share of shows, but it doesn't have one single venue as its centerpiece and none with the reputation of Cain's. Shows take place at several venues across town and in Norman. I don't know why the Norman Music Festival doesn't count, especially since it is featuring bands that actually ARE part of the scene, not just ones brought in on tour.

I am in no way challenging Cain's position as the top touring venue of its size in the state. And nothing else competes with it on a per venue basis in terms of the shows booked. However, when comparing the two markets AS A WHOLE, they are much closer than most give credit. The funny thing is that, as your example pointed out, when bands play here people write it off or don't even notice (they certainly never seem to remember it when this topic comes up), but when they play at Cain's people go "why don't they play here", even though they often already have.

They don't now that they're big, do they? They CHOOSE TULSA.

Your idea that because a band played here at one point in the past holds no water because the point is TULSA CONSISTENTLY PULLS THEM. Great, the Hold Steady once played in Norman. Now if they consistently choose to play in Tulsa instead of anywhere in or around OKC for the next 5 years, then I guess we're equal to Tulsa. Your point makes zero logical sense.

[BDP]

I said "Many bands that play at Cain's have and will play in Oklahoma City. "

You said "untrue".

I have proven it to be true, while also showing that bands that play here often don't play there.

Now, if you missed the bands when they did play here or didn't even know about them then, that doesn't change the facts. It's not about logic, it's simple fact.

Your idea that because a band played here at one point in the past holds no water

What do you mean? That's exactly what we were discussing. I'm sorry if you feel like some bands you like shun Oklahoma City now. I'm sorry if you didn't go to the shows when they played in Oklahoma City. But it doesn't change the fact that they did play here and there are plenty of examples of bands that play here that don't play there. You may not know about them (yet), but it does happen very often.

If anything, your idea that it doesn't count until you or a bunch of other people like them is what doesn't hold water, because it's irrelevant to the statement I made about bands that play there have played here, which you called untrue. I guess next time I will ask you which bands count.

[deltablues]

No arguments to the NFL theory i see.

[jbrown84]

No arguments to the NFL theory i see.

Your argument there is valid. But I agree with the poster who said NFL isn't likely to come to any Oklahoma city in the next 20 years.

[okcpulse]

They don't now that they're big, do they? They CHOOSE TULSA.

Your idea that because a band played here at one point in the past holds no water because the point is TULSA CONSISTENTLY PULLS THEM. Great, the Hold Steady once played in Norman. Now if they consistently choose to play in Tulsa instead of anywhere in or around OKC for the next 5 years, then I guess we're equal to Tulsa. Your point makes zero logical sense.

Bands don't CHOOSE where they play. They play where they are booked. They play where bookings are available. Unless it's something big like SXSW or some giant music festival, bands play where they are booked.

Bands don't have time to sit down and play spin the bottle on some map.

[dismayed]

So just this week over the next seven days Tulsa has Deathcab for Cutie, All American Rejects, Papa Roach, Avenged Sevenfold, Shiny Toy Guns, and Chicago playing. Not at one big festival or anything, they're all just there at various concerts. Those are all huge names.

Tulsa is doing very well in the concerts department.

[kevinpate]

Chicago is considered huge again? Isn't Frontier City one of their regular stops?

[Oil Capital]

No arguments to the NFL theory i see.

Probably because everyone thought the idea of Tulsa getting an NFL team in the next, oh, say, 50 years is so laughable it's not worth responding to. The key difference in your Nashville/Memphis comparison being that either of them is large enough for either NFL or NBA. Perhaps it would be a stretch to have both in either of those cities.

Where the comparison fails is when you try to apply it to Tulsa/OKC. OKC is large enough for the NBA. It's fair to question whether it could presently support both NBA and NFL. Tulsa, however, is not large enough for either.

The comparison fails further in that Memphis and Nashville are of comparable size and relative dominance of their state. The same cannot be said of OKC/Tulsa. OKC is substantially larger, and growing faster and has much greater dominance of the state. Tulsa is increasingly becoming a secondary city within Oklahoma, playing on the same stage with the Springfields and Wichitas.

[Oil Capital]

.

Tulsa is doing very well in the concerts department.

I don't think any said otherwise.

[sgt. pepper]

Deathcab for Cutie, Papa Roach, Avenged Sevenfold, Shiny Toy Guns

i think huge is over stating it a bit hugely

[RealJimbo]

Just go to the area in Tulsa where they had once planned to develop a "bricktown". Still only a Spagetti Warehouse, Brady Theater and Cain's Ballroom. In between these venues is kind of scary at night. They'd like to think they are far ahead of OKC and in some ways, they ARE, culturally. Consider that big oil money built Tulsa and those old oil barons brought the best of everything into Tulsa including architecture, museums, art, etc. Their Performing Arts Center has long attracted only the best in opera, ballet and pop artists.

But all you have to do to make a T-Towner green around the eyes is to mention MAPS or specifically Brick Town.

[krisb]

Anyone looked at the artists who have played at the Zoo Amphitheater over the past few years. Now that's big time...Snow Patrol in '07 and Sheryl Crow last year. Chicago and Earth, Wind, and Fire are coming in August (they're not big time anymore, but Tulsa isn't special in getting them). Not to mention Styx, Alan Jackson, Cross-canadian Ragweed, Korn, Def Leppard, Willie Nelson, The Flaming Lips, etc.

[Matt]

Going up to Tulsa to see Sonic Youth at Cain's this Thursday.

Was looking through the entertainment section of the paper the other day and took note of how many good/big shows were gonna be up there as opposed to down here. Between Cain's, the Brady Theatre, and the BOK Center, Tulsa is putting us to shame when it comes to shows this summer.

[OKCisOK4me]

Going up to Tulsa to see Sonic Youth at Cain's this Thursday.

Was looking through the entertainment section of the paper the other day and took note of how many good/big shows were gonna be up there as opposed to down here. Between Cain's, the Brady Theatre, and the BOK Center, Tulsa is putting us to shame when it comes to shows this summer.

Do we have to keep reminding people that nobody is coming to the Ford Center because of the renovations. Do you not realize that as soon as the renovations are over before the start of NBA play that big names are scheduled for the Ford Center? I, for one, am ready to see Kings of Leon in concert at the Ford Center!

[RealJimbo]

Give me the smaller venues like Cains in Tulsa and UCO Jazz Lab, Blue Door, Conservatory, even the Wormy Dog and Biting Sow in OKC. I get absolutely nothing but frustrated by trying to go to a concert at a venue so big you can't see the artist(s) unless they have a big screen and it is impossible to engineer the sound in a large venue to faithfully represent what you came to hear. In that arena, I believe we have Tulsa beat. Cain's, Brady, what else?