Is Newcastle the next Moore..............

[Spartan]

How is there "no land left" in Moore and SW OKC?

[bchris02]

How is there "no land left" in Moore and SW OKC?

I agree. Just doing a quick Google Maps search shows me there is still a lot that could be developed in SW OKC, Moore, and even far north Norman without extending the sprawl down to Newcastle. They could also develop out towards Lake Stanley Draper, east of Moore, which is all still in the Moore school district. I always thought S Sooner Rd, which is four lanes all the way to Norman, would one day be a significant corridor for development.

[Plutonic Panda]

Right, I hear you on the school districts. Putnam City used to be a great school district. It was thrown under the bus as well by the sprawl cycle.

Spartan, it can easily be turned around with community investment and pride. It has nothing to do with sprawl, rather than people just not caring and lower class folks moving in(well, that is part of the first line).

[Plutonic Panda]

We're already there, except the only difference is that we've built up a buffer zone to the NW comprised of a few miles of historic neighborhoods that are on the upswing.

The thing is that so many people speak for downtown that when anyone attacks the sprawl cycle it's assumed that they're speaking for downtown. Nobody speaks for the inner ring suburbs that are the real battle ground, and that is the problem. Downtown is and will be fine, that is a completely separate market driven by different demographics.

For example, Cleveland has the First Suburbs Consortium that unites these inner ring burbs (which are mostly 20s-50s era) and amplified their voice, allows them to apply for funds collectively, etc. These are the kind of relationships that OKC needs to build with Bethany, Warr Acres, Nichols Hills, The Village, Del City. It's easier for the Cleveland suburbs because the city is only 400,000 out of 1.5 million in Cuyahoga County, which is comprised of around 50 other communities. The OKC-centricity of Oklahoma County will make that more difficult, but not impossible.

We need strong suburbs that are good places to build families. Building more disposable ones and disposing of the ones we currently have is not the way to go.

Spartan, can you please post pictures of what you think a good suburb is vs. a bad one. . . I am a visual guy. I will gladly do the same if you wish.

[rezman]

I lived in Deer Creek for 5 years, and moved out there so my kids could experience living closer to nature. There ended up being a little too much nature for me (snakes and scorpions in the house, possums in the garage and skunks on the porch), all the driving about killed me and the yard work was ghastly. I had poison ivy more often than not. My kids played with video games and their dollhouse more than they were outside, so I begged my husband to let us move back into the city. The ranchette phase passed quickly. But maybe I wouldn't have been happy without finding out for myself. With hindsight, however, you can have it. I just want the people living on their ranchette to be outside Oklahoma City limits, as we were, and then I agree that people can do what they want.

We're doing the same thing. We're on 6 acres in rural eastern OKC, and I love it. In the last ten years, we've worked that place from a scraggly overgrown plot of land into a beautiful home with plenty of room around it. And I love the nature too. Including the group of tarantulas that live in the back yard and come out hunting for bugs and such. ... the scorpions I have to admit I can do without, but I love everything else about the place.

But my son has been out of the house about three years now and my daughter is in high school, and we have just about worn ourselves out taking care of such a big place. We would also like to have more time to do other things. So we made the decision to put our place on the market and we're down sizing back to city lot in a nice 25 year old addition in Okc.

Is this a tough decision?... absolutely. There's nothing like not having neighbors right on top of you and all in your business.


By the way, I have to ask. What do you mean by " I just want the people living on their ranchette to be outside Oklahoma City limits, as we were." ?

[Just the facts]

Spartan, can you please post pictures of what you think a good suburb is vs. a bad one. . . I am a visual guy. I will gladly do the same if you wish.

This is an area here in Jax called San Marco. In the early 1900's this area was in the city of South Jacksonville, which before it was incorporated was also called Oklahoma (weird huh). The place in this picture was built in 1925 and was one of Jacksonville first-ring suburbs. This is an example of a "good suburb". For a bad suburb pick any place whose center of commerce is a Walmart.

[Spartan]

Spartan, can you please post pictures of what you think a good suburb is vs. a bad one. . . I am a visual guy. I will gladly do the same if you wish.

Check out Fisher, IN (Indy), Dublin, OH (Cbus), or Cleveland Heights, Lakewood, Shaker Heights, University Heights, (all CLE area old urbanist, transit village burbs) Woodmere, Westlake, or Brecksville (new urbanist CLE burbs). Ill post pics later.

I think Plano and Denton are doing good stuff compared to any of the other cities around there. Near Houston, Bellaire is a great example of infilling a 1960s era suburb that wasn't uber rich to begin with (which is significant bc obv most quality urbanism follows upper class suburbs, which is a problem I'd concede). The thing though is even OKC's upper class areas aren't all that well planned.

[Plutonic Panda]

Check out Fisher, IN (Indy), Dublin, OH (Cbus), or Cleveland Heights, Lakewood, Shaker Heights, University Heights, (all CLE area old urbanist, transit village burbs) Woodmere, Westlake, or Brecksville (new urbanist CLE burbs). Ill post pics later.

I think Plano and Denton are doing good stuff compared to any of the other cities around there. Near Houston, Bellaire is a great example of infilling a 1960s era suburb that wasn't uber rich to begin with (which is significant bc obv most quality urbanism follows upper class suburbs, which is a problem I'd concede). The thing though is even OKC's upper class areas aren't all that well planned.

I'll check them out later tonight, thanks!

[bchris02]

This is an area here in Jax called San Marco. In the early 1900's this area was in the city of South Jacksonville, which before it was incorporated was also called Oklahoma (weird huh). The place in this picture was built in 1925 and was one of Jacksonville first-ring suburbs. This is an example of a "good suburb". For a bad suburb pick any place whose center of commerce is a Walmart.

Which is most of OKC and its suburbs. A lot of people give me flack for being anti-Wal-Mart or saying OKC retail has been ruined by them. However, when you look at the facts you can see where I am coming from. Most retail development here within the past decade has been anchored by Wal-Mart. The result has been countless terrible shopping centers and relatively few new retailers entering the market and very poor architectural aesthetics. You won't see development like that picture above in OKC. Instead, you'll see the Belle Isle Wal-Mart shopping center. I have NEVER seen Wal-Mart anchor a quality shopping center anywhere I've lived. That doesn't mean there isn't one out there somewhere, but its a very rare thing. I know that this city, given its size, is capable of better development.

[Garin]

How is there "no land left" in Moore and SW OKC?

The farmers that own the viable land that is left want so much per acre it make the cost for development to high. The reason the rural markets are becoming more popular for the developers is because of the affordable land. I sit on the boards of SWHBA , BASCO, and MHBA so I hear the latest three times a month.

[windowphobe]

Just incidentally, the north end of McClain County -- just over the river -- was once actually within OKC city limits. (Doug Loudenback, who knows more about this than anyone including me, can verify.) In the process of dropping from 680 to 640 to 621 square miles, this area was shed.

Doug Dawgz Blog: Oklahoma City Area History

[coov23]

I think the obvious answer is the Deer Creek/Piedmont area. Those two areas have exploded and there's no sign of change, either.

[Bunty]

My money is on Edmond, Norman, Moore, Yukon, Mustang, Midwest City, and NW and SW OKC seeing strong growth for the next 5 maybe 10 years. Then within the next 5-7 years, growth will really pick up in Guthrie, El Reno, Newcastle, Spencer, Piedmont, and Jones should start to see some real growth. Now, when I say that, I'm not talking Austin style growth here, but some steady strong growth should come.

But Newcastle and Piedmont have already been adding on population like crazy. Newcastle may surpass Guthrie in population before the 2020 census. So people shouldn't be surprised about talk Newcastle being the next Moore.

[Bunty]

The farmers that own the viable land that is left want so much per acre it make the cost for development to high. The reason the rural markets are becoming more popular for the developers is because of the affordable land. I sit on the boards of SWHBA , BASCO, and MHBA so I hear the latest three times a month.

Then are farmers doing something to make their land generate some income, like lease it? They don't have to give up their oil rights when they sell, if they have them. If I was a land owner I'd me tempted to sell, especially, if I wasn't realizing any income from the land. However, if you're making more income off your property than you would selling it and putting the money in the bank, I can easily understand the reluctance to sell it.

[Bunty]

Which is most of OKC and its suburbs. A lot of people give me flack for being anti-Wal-Mart or saying OKC retail has been ruined by them. However, when you look at the facts you can see where I am coming from. Most retail development here within the past decade has been anchored by Wal-Mart. The result has been countless terrible shopping centers and relatively few new retailers entering the market and very poor architectural aesthetics. You won't see development like that picture above in OKC. Instead, you'll see the Belle Isle Wal-Mart shopping center. I have NEVER seen Wal-Mart anchor a quality shopping center anywhere I've lived. That doesn't mean there isn't one out there somewhere, but its a very rare thing. I know that this city, given its size, is capable of better development.

If those cheap, terrible looking shopping centers around Wal-Mart have few, if any, vacancies, then, in my opinion, the economic situation is more good than bad.

[bchris02]

The farmers that own the viable land that is left want so much per acre it make the cost for development to high. The reason the rural markets are becoming more popular for the developers is because of the affordable land. I sit on the boards of SWHBA , BASCO, and MHBA so I hear the latest three times a month.

I guess that makes sense. Why develop a housing development in South Moore when you can purchase the land at a quarter of the cost down between Newcastle and Tuttle? As long as people are willing to commute long distances this type of stuff will continue. OKC is nowhere close to the worst city in the US when it comes to sprawl-per-capita but the abundance of cheap, open land makes it difficult to put a stop to. I am not sure, but my guess would be that a majority of Central Oklahomans would rather live in a 4500 sq foot McMansion on 5 acres in Newcastle with all the latest appliances than a 1000 sq foot fixer-upper at 23rd and Villa.

[Garin]

[QUOTE=Bunty;701169]Then are farmers doing something to make their land generate some income, like lease it? They don't have to give up their oil rights when they sell, if they have them. If I was a land owner I'd me tempted to sell, especially, if I wasn't realizing any income from the land. However, if you're making more income off your property than you would selling it and putting the money in the bank, I can easily understand the reluctance to sell it.[/QUO

The majority of the farmers ( land owners ) have owned most of the land in these areas for like ever. When something does get sold its usually by a handful of certain folks. The still run some cattle, grow some hay , and some frankly have enough money they unless you're willing to price the price they are now asking it will just sit there and pay the property taxes. Newcastle and the tri city area are still for the most part very affordable when buying large chucks of land.

[Garin]

I guess that makes sense. Why develop a housing development in South Moore when you can purchase the land at a quarter of the cost down between Newcastle and Tuttle? As long as people are willing to commute long distances this type of stuff will continue. OKC is nowhere close to the worst city in the US when it comes to sprawl-per-capita but the abundance of cheap, open land makes it difficult to put a stop to. I am not sure, but my guess would be that a majority of Central Oklahomans would rather live in a 4500 sq foot McMansion on 5 acres in Newcastle with all the latest appliances than a 1000 sq foot fixer-upper at 23rd and Villa.

Q- What is the number one reason that a family has on their mind when looking for a new home ?....... A - School system. You will not find anyone with exception of a few that would trade the perfect brand new house on 23rd and villa versus a fixer upper in Newcastle. If you're single its a different story, but not for families its a no brainer .

[Just the facts]

If those cheap, terrible looking shopping centers around Wal-Mart have few, if any, vacancies, then, in my opinion, the economic situation is more good than bad.

The problem is that tax revenue generated by them isn't enough to cover the cost of the infrastructure that has to support them, which is why cities and towns rely on the growth model, and when growth stops (usually because they run out of land) decay sets in. It's inevitable. If you lose money in every transaction you can't make up for it in volume.

[crimsoncrazy]

The farmers that own the viable land that is left want so much per acre it make the cost for development to high. The reason the rural markets are becoming more popular for the developers is because of the affordable land. I sit on the boards of SWHBA , BASCO, and MHBA so I hear the latest three times a month.

The owners of the 160 acres that is for sale at 104th and Rockwell are asking for 2 million. The farm land just on the northwest side of 74th and Rockwell just west of the airport is about to be developed into a housing addition.

[Garin]

The owners of the 160 acres that is for sale at 104th and Rockwell are asking for 2 million. The farm land just on the northwest side of 74th and Rockwell just west of the airport is about to be developed into a housing addition.

Do the math that is $ 12,500 per acre , 3 times what you can by it for in Newcastle.

[Zuplar]

The owners of the 160 acres that is for sale at 104th and Rockwell are asking for 2 million. The farm land just on the northwest side of 74th and Rockwell just west of the airport is about to be developed into a housing addition.

A big difference in those 2 you mentioned is school district. One is Moore and the other Western Heights. I'm surprised someone would want to develop in the Western Heights district as the neighborhood over by AWG hasn't done anything and they started that thing years ago.

[Spartan]

Q- What is the number one reason that a family has on their mind when looking for a new home ?....... A - School system. You will not find anyone with exception of a few that would trade the perfect brand new house on 23rd and villa versus a fixer upper in Newcastle. If you're single its a different story, but not for families its a no brainer .

I'm just not so sure of how realistic your bombastic assertion here is... You're absolutely right my friend in theory that the school district is the priority w families and why so many inner cities are bursting at the seems with 20-somethings and still losing population.

However, you named specifics. Newcastle v. NW 23rd and Villa (Shepherd?). I think just bout anyone would make the obvious choice there between having your kids grow up modern and cultured v. white trash and sheltered. You could have named Moore Schools or Norman etc, but you named Newcastle, and that is the subject of this thread as well. We are talking McClain County..

And just to anticipate the outrage over calling Newcastle white trash, granted it isn't quite the home of Jason White, it is actually a much more offensive assumption that OCPS schools are all bad (there isn't even competition between Classen SAS and anything south of Memorial Road) which was a foregone conclusion here from Post 1.

Again I can't say enough, when people want these absurd urb v burb comparisons, have some perspective. It isn't all black and white. Its actually all quite gray.

[coov23]

Spartan is about as much as an elitist as it comes. You think Piedmont is white trash too? I'm willing to bet you didn't know that Piedmont is ranked very high for its school system. They score leaps and bounds above the national average when it comes to act, sat and national testing.

But hey, belittle anyone who chooses not to live inside the core of OKC. You've made it known you think the economically deprived city of Cleveland is better than OKC. You live there. Why don't you visit their sites?

Oh, and before you come at me with the fact I have never lived in other places, let me squash that. I just moved back to OKC after living in Philly for 4 years. We made weekend trips to DC, NYC and Baltimore on a monthly basis. Spare me your elitist diatribe. It's wearing this board sick.

[ljbab728]

Spartan is about as much as an elitist as it comes. You think Piedmont is white trash too? I'm willing to bet you didn't know that Piedmont is ranked very high for its school system. They score leaps and bounds above the national average when it comes to act, sat and national testing.

But hey, belittle anyone who chooses not to live inside the core of OKC. You've made it known you think the economically deprived city of Cleveland is better than OKC. You live there. Why don't you visit their sites?

Oh, and before you come at me with the fact I have never lived in other places, let me squash that. I just moved back to OKC after living in Philly for 4 years. We made weekend trips to DC, NYC and Baltimore on a monthly basis. Spare me your elitist diatribe. It's wearing this board sick.

I don't always agree with Spartan but he makes many very pertinent points about many issues and has been doing so for quite a few years here. He isn't wearing this board sick.